Papadakis/Cizeron #5 - We're In Love With The Shape Of You

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Japanfan said:
TSL is not Canadian. And yes, you are indirectly bashing Canada.

I'll add that I don't recall reading any posts on this forum bashing P/C. I certainly haven't bashed them in any of my posts on the dance competition.

There are a lot of P/C fans on FSU, and some of them are even Canadian.:eek::eek: P/C are very much a very respected team in general.



As Brian Boitano said (IIRC): Blame Canada! :)




Could you provide some examples of that meanness and aggression please? I'm particularly interested in any you can find on the board.
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I was going to respond point by point but I won't bother since we are in the P/C appreciation thread, we've talk enough (way too much )about V/M and you appear to be very disingeneous.

As every body can see V/M ubers/fans are derailing the general dance thread as well as polluting the P/C thread.
 
cocotaffy said:
So I meant protocols proved time and time again this year P/C have clearly skated an excellent pattern, the best of the field IMO, and yet they were, according to Lease, the weaker skater in that area. Hope makes more sense.
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The issue is Dave Lease. I don't think anyone, including fans of P/C and V/M, should believe one word that comes out of his mouth or fingers...
 
skategal said:
The issue is Dave Lease. I don't think anyone, including fans of P/C and V/M, should believe one word that comes out of his mouth or fingers...
Click to expand...

Despite Dave's connections, and paraphrasing that Deadspin article, I do think of him as just a guy with a regular job and a low rent Youtube channel. I don't think he outright lies, but I always question his motives when he presents information and never forget that he loves drama more than he loves any skater.

To be fair, he did say on Twitter during the Olympics SD that "The French choctaw was glorious". But he took the position in the last Worlds recap that P/C would always be weaker on the compulsory pattern and I think that, like a lot of people, Dave would rather jump off a cliff than say "I was proven wrong".
 
The best exemple being this talk about V/M having the best rhumba pattern of the field quoting "being 10 times better than anyone else's" But all year long, P/C kept proving him wrong. They clearly were superior than any other team but they are still the weakest skaters technically and can't do compulsories.
 
Hello everyone !
I have enjoyed reading this thread so much this year that I finally decided to post for the first time even though I have been reading a bit here and there for the last ten years ! That's how awsome P/C fans are...

I'd like to go back to TSL and the rumba pattern that many of you mentioned (sorry but for my first post I could not figure out how to quote !).
It's obvious to me that TSL knows nothing about ice dance and further more I think they never saw V/M and P/C live back to back, and even better in practises. I have been watching ice dance for 31 years and attended 17 europeans or worlds and as many Grand Prix (I am very fortunate I know !); I concluded I would never dare to give an opinion on a pattern I haven't seen live unless :
1) I know each steps and the shape of the pattern
2) I watch the videos/camera work to identify which steps can be spotted thanks to the signs on the boards or sometimes at the center of the rink
3) I then watch each competitor several time and compare the above mentioned steps.

I hope I don't bore you but I thought maybe some of you would be interested in judging by themselves.
So here it goes at Grand Prix Final : P/C here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMuqDhSUKUohttps:

The camera work is such that there are only 3 steps I could spot (and unfortunately not the double choctaw) :

1) very first step, a chassé at 0,46 : P/C start right after the corner (see the Canon sign)
2) right foward inside 3 turn (immediately following the double choctaw) at 0,58. Look the distance beetwen Guillaume 's foot and the board on the exit of this 3 turn and watch the deep curve/edge.
3) at 1,00, Gabriella's right skate is literally in the board, she can't even do her push.

You can compare to any other competitor; no pattern is bigger than P/C's, by far.
The size of the pattern tells everything there is to know about skating skills demonstrated. The biggest the pattern, the fastest you are and the deepest edges you got (if not, you would crash into the boards).

I hope I don't sound like an "arrogant teacher" ! If I do, please forgive me, that was not my intention.
 
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Thanks a lot @marifran and welcome aboard :40beers: Do post often and long (so I'm not the only one rambling on :D) Can't speak for everyone else but I appreciate greatly any technical input from knowledgeable Ice Dance fan. Have you ever seen P/C live ? Maybe you are going to Worlds this year.
 
marifran said:
Hello everyone !
I have enjoyed reading this thread so much this year that I finally decided to post for the first time even though I have been reading a bit here and there for the last ten years ! That's how awsome P/C fans are...

I'd like to go back to TSL and the rumba pattern that many of you mentioned (sorry but for my first post I could not figure out how to quote !).
It's obvious to me that TSL knows nothing about ice dance and further more I think they never saw V/M and P/C live back to back, and even better in practises. I have been watching ice dance for 31 years and attended 17 europeans or worlds and as many Grand Prix (I am very fortunate I know !); I concluded I would never dare to give an opinion on a pattern I haven't seen live unless :
1) I know each steps and the shape of the pattern
2) I watch the videos/camera work to identify which steps can be spotted thanks to the signs on the boards or sometimes at the center of the rink
3) I then watch each competitor several time and compare the above mentioned steps.

I hope I don't bore you but I thought maybe some of you would be interested in judging by themselves.
So here it goes at Grand Prix Final : P/C here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMuqDhSUKUohttps:

The camera work is such that there are only 3 steps I could spot (and unfortunately not the double choctaw) :

1) very first step, a chassé at 0,46 : P/C start right after the corner (see the Canon sign)
2) right foward inside 3 turn (immediately following the double choctaw) at 0,58. Look the distance beetwen Guillaume 's foot and the board on the exit of this 3 turn and watch the deep curve/edge.
3) at 1,00, Gabriella's right skate is literally in the board, she can't even do her push.

You can compare to any other competitor; no pattern is bigger than P/C's, by far.
The size of the pattern tells everything there is to know about skating skills demonstrated. The biggest the pattern, the fastest you are and the deepest edges you got (if not, you would crash into the boards).

I hope I don't sound like an "arrogant teacher" ! If I do, please forgive me, that was not my intention.
Click to expand...

Welcome! Post as much as you like and don't worry about sounding as a teacher. It's great to have people who really understand ice dance difficulties and want to explain it to others. :) I fit isn't too much from me to ask, could you share your experience when seeing P/C live? Have you been to Boston, for example? (I'm still raving about that whole competition and of the two dances of Gabi and Guillaume :D)

To the current short dance - I love the sharp movements in the first part of the lift from the GPF and Gabi's hand movements from Dancing on Ice last week. They could combine that for Worlds. :biggrinbo
 
marifran said:
Hello everyone !
I have enjoyed reading this thread so much this year that I finally decided to post for the first time even though I have been reading a bit here and there for the last ten years ! That's how awsome P/C fans are...

I'd like to go back to TSL and the rumba pattern that many of you mentioned (sorry but for my first post I could not figure out how to quote !).
It's obvious to me that TSL knows nothing about ice dance and further more I think they never saw V/M and P/C live back to back, and even better in practises. I have been watching ice dance for 31 years and attended 17 europeans or worlds and as many Grand Prix (I am very fortunate I know !); I concluded I would never dare to give an opinion on a pattern I haven't seen live unless :
1) I know each steps and the shape of the pattern
2) I watch the videos/camera work to identify which steps can be spotted thanks to the signs on the boards or sometimes at the center of the rink
3) I then watch each competitor several time and compare the above mentioned steps.

I hope I don't bore you but I thought maybe some of you would be interested in judging by themselves.
So here it goes at Grand Prix Final : P/C here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMuqDhSUKUohttps:

The camera work is such that there are only 3 steps I could spot (and unfortunately not the double choctaw) :

1) very first step, a chassé at 0,46 : P/C start right after the corner (see the Canon sign)
2) right foward inside 3 turn (immediately following the double choctaw) at 0,58. Look the distance beetwen Guillaume 's foot and the board on the exit of this 3 turn and watch the deep curve/edge.
3) at 1,00, Gabriella's right skate is literally in the board, she can't even do her push.

You can compare to any other competitor; no pattern is bigger than P/C's, by far.
The size of the pattern tells everything there is to know about skating skills demonstrated. The biggest the pattern, the fastest you are and the deepest edges you got (if not, you would crash into the boards).

I hope I don't sound like an "arrogant teacher" ! If I do, please forgive me, that was not my intention.
Click to expand...



Welcome Marifran.

We are all happy to have one more knowledgeable person on board to defend our beloved P/C. Anyasnake who has been our tech specialist needs all the help she can get to face the antagonistic hordes :D
 
Isabelle.G said:
Welcome! Post as much as you like and don't worry about sounding as a teacher. It's great to have people who really understand ice dance difficulties and want to explain it to others. :)
Click to expand...
MTE. Looking forward to hearing more from you, @marifran!

I'm not a skater myself and I come from a dance background, so I tend to pay more attention to the whole body movement than to the details of blade work (which is why P/C are my faves, because their way of moving their bodies is so beautiful and unique in ice dance). Basically, unless there's a visible bobble or something I wouldn't be able to tell a level 2/3 pattern/stsq from a level 4.... not even if you'd give me all the camera angles and ISU handbooks in the world, not even if my life depended on it. So I really appreciate people who have the technical knowledge and are willing to explain things to us dummies. :D
 
Thank you all for the warm welcome !
Yes I have seen P/C live at 2016 Europeans, 2017 Grand Prix Final and Worlds in Helsinki as well as French Grand Prix 2017. I'll be in Milan, of course !
Watching them live is almost a spiritual experience ... You start quivering and freezing, your jaw drops and when it's over you wonder if that was real.
Guillaume is like Noureev on ice; Gabriella is Maria Callas or Sarah Bernhardt. They litterally fly over the ice at incredible speed effortlessly and what's amazing is that they never slow down. It is so soft and smooth (thanks to their deep knee bent and knee action) that it looks as if they were floating over a piece of white silk. Murielle Zazoui praised their speed years ago and Lauzon recently said they have the best glide in the world.
Let's not even mention the beauty of their dance but be aware that constantly moving your upper body like they do puts your balance on the blade in danger (balance is either on the foward 1/3 length of the blade if you go backwards and the other way round if you go foward).The best exemple of that are twizzles. Unperfect balance slows you down and can even get scratchy.So dancing like they do is not only difficult from a dancing point of you but also extremely difficult from a skating point of view. What looks beautiful and easy is usually the sign of outstanding technique !

They are so good that you forget what they are doing with their legs/feet and just look at the dance. It's like a violonist who pulls than pushes his archer and you can't even hear it. One commentator (forgot who) recently said that "they dance on ice while the others are skating dancing moves".
Another said "you feel like putting your pencil down and watch" , "you just sit back and watch" !!!

For those of you who are interested, I highly recommend 7 great very short ISU tutorials on "skating skills" which are very easy to understand with a lot of footage as exemples. Not too technical and not too boring. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U&index=54&list=PL701076590A417C26.

There are also tutorials on the other PCS if you can't sleep at night.

Enjoy !
 
Welcome @marifran ! Post often :D

Thank you for the link you gave us, I watched some of it, especially the last video "Skating skills : conclusions". It gives a nice summary because as said in the video you cannot assess every single point in a matter of 3 or 4 minutes just for the Skating skills.
The areas where P/C stands out (a lot) compared to competition is effortless speed, balance (moving their upper bodies a lot it could be tough to skate), and obviously flow. That seamlessness make it easy for the viewer. The first time I saw how wide that gap was, was at Europeans 2016. They made it look so easy it wasn't even funny - I remember how so many people said : "too easy of a program", and they still say it now. Nice try, but no. It's hard to skate their programs, it's even harder to make it look easy, it asks for a lot of strength, balance and extremely strong basic skating skills.
In France, many Ice Dance teams have been praised for basics skills because this is mostly where the focus is, the knee bend is so important. I watch videos of Delobel/Schoenfelder compulsories the other day (skating geek :D) and it was strong on that department, it does make all the difference.
The whole body moves, from head to toes, arms (Gaby's softness), knees, chest (you'll find Guillaume doing tech elements but moving his chest along with the music that is just :encore:), everything. So you are actually watching dance.

Also, I've noticed that during this year's Junior Worlds (I might not be the only one) : in the past, you would have ladies that were looking up to some other female ice dancers (Oksana Grishuk, Shae-Lynn Bourne, Tessa Virtue, Meryl Davis, Tatiana Navka, etc). And then they'll try to channel them a bit (or a lot) that is very common for girls. However, you find more and more male dancers trying to be a strong male on their own, not just presenting, and many of them reminded me of Guillaume. There's a focus on the male dancer that wasn't necessarily here before, the man is dancing a bit more now. It's more of a shared dance than a presentation.
 
Anyasnake said:
Also, I've noticed that during this year's Junior Worlds (I might not be the only one) : in the past, you would have ladies that were looking up to some other female ice dancers (Oksana Grishuk, Shae-Lynn Bourne, Tessa Virtue, Meryl Davis, Tatiana Navka, etc). And then they'll try to channel them a bit (or a lot) that is very common for girls. However, you find more and more male dancers trying to be a strong male on their own, not just presenting, and many of them reminded me of Guillaume. There's a focus on the male dancer that wasn't necessarily here before, the man is dancing a bit more now. It's more of a shared dance than a presentation.
Click to expand...
Great minds etc.... But it really stroke me too. So here you go, after only 4 years in seniors, they have already made their mark and influenced younger generations and when I say younger, some of those guys are only 2 to 3 years younger :eek: I'm thrilled Ice dance is evolving towards a more balanced sports gender wise. Presenting the woman while it can be nice shouldn't always be the main focus. Other past teams have successfully played with those concepts (les Duchesnays and even Torvill/Dean come to mind) but Guillaume has that extra something special which makes the ID takes more notice along with coming on to the scene at the right time going along with societal changes in terms of gender dynamics.
As for the difficulty to constantly move the upper body while remaining razor sharp with their feet, Ben Agosto and Charlie White mentioned it and even said this much upper body commitment during a whole FD had never been done. Yet, it's never mention as an element of difficulty by those who constantly assert how easier their programs are. It also happens that in a couple one will demonstrate such ability but not the other one, often the woman while the guy remains a bit stiff. Here both of them are extraordinary in that respect hence all those shapes only they can create. Those new junior men are definitely loosening up.
 
marifran said:
Thank you all for the warm welcome !
Yes I have seen P/C live at 2016 Europeans, 2017 Grand Prix Final and Worlds in Helsinki as well as French Grand Prix 2017. I'll be in Milan, of course !
Watching them live is almost a spiritual experience ... You start quivering and freezing, your jaw drops and when it's over you wonder if that was real.
Guillaume is like Noureev on ice; Gabriella is Maria Callas or Sarah Bernhardt. They litterally fly over the ice at incredible speed effortlessly and what's amazing is that they never slow down. It is so soft and smooth (thanks to their deep knee bent and knee action) that it looks as if they were floating over a piece of white silk. Murielle Zazoui praised their speed years ago and Lauzon recently said they have the best glide in the world.
Let's not even mention the beauty of their dance but be aware that constantly moving your upper body like they do puts your balance on the blade in danger (balance is either on the foward 1/3 length of the blade if you go backwards and the other way round if you go foward).The best exemple of that are twizzles. Unperfect balance slows you down and can even get scratchy.So dancing like they do is not only difficult from a dancing point of you but also extremely difficult from a skating point of view. What looks beautiful and easy is usually the sign of outstanding technique !

They are so good that you forget what they are doing with their legs/feet and just look at the dance. It's like a violonist who pulls than pushes his archer and you can't even hear it. One commentator (forgot who) recently said that "they dance on ice while the others are skating dancing moves".
Another said "you feel like putting your pencil down and watch" , "you just sit back and watch" !!!

For those of you who are interested, I highly recommend 7 great very short ISU tutorials on "skating skills" which are very easy to understand with a lot of footage as exemples. Not too technical and not too boring. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U&index=54&list=PL701076590A417C26.

There are also tutorials on the other PCS if you can't sleep at night.

Enjoy !
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better. At least that's exactly how I felt. I saw them only once at 2017 Europeans (fd) but my feelings were identical. Already when the last group was about to take the ice, I couldn't believe it's really them, warming up right before my eyes and then, of course, came the whole performance with so many emotions I didn't even know I can feel all of them at once. :lol:
You're so lucky to be in Bratislava and see the famous Rain in Your Black Eyes/to Build a Home program. That must have been something really special. Please, let us all know about everything you see in Milan. And most importantly, enjoy it out there as much as you can! :)
 
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cocotaffy said:
Presenting the woman while it can be nice shouldn't always be the main focus. Other past teams have successfully played with those concepts (les Duchesnays and even Torvill/Dean come to mind) but Guillaume has that extra something special which makes the ID takes more notice along with coming on to the scene at the right time going along with societal changes in terms of gender dynamics.
Click to expand...

The notion that the man in a dance or pair is just there to present the woman - sort of like a tree trunk - reeks of the sexual objectification of women. I'm sure some or many female dancers/pair skaters thought of it as an honor or a privilege, but in that case I'd argue they were not fully aware of the gender dynamics at play - not surprising for young women in general, and for female figure skaters in particular, given the gendered nature of FS.

I'm really delighted to see equal attention given to both the male and female ice dance partners.

And Scott Moir has helped that process along as well. He and Tessa skate as equals, and are a perfectly balanced team.
 
Anyasnake said:
Welcome @marifran ! Post often :D

Thank you for the link you gave us, I watched some of it, especially the last video "Skating skills : conclusions". It gives a nice summary because as said in the video you cannot assess every single point in a matter of 3 or 4 minutes just for the Skating skills.
The areas where P/C stands out (a lot) compared to competition is effortless speed, balance (moving their upper bodies a lot it could be tough to skate), and obviously flow. That seamlessness make it easy for the viewer. The first time I saw how wide that gap was, was at Europeans 2016. They made it look so easy it wasn't even funny - I remember how so many people said : "too easy of a program", and they still say it now. Nice try, but no. It's hard to skate their programs, it's even harder to make it look easy, it asks for a lot of strength, balance and extremely strong basic skating skills.
In France, many Ice Dance teams have been praised for basics skills because this is mostly where the focus is, the knee bend is so important. I watch videos of Delobel/Schoenfelder compulsories the other day (skating geek :D) and it was strong on that department, it does make all the difference.
The whole body moves, from head to toes, arms (Gaby's softness), knees, chest (you'll find Guillaume doing tech elements but moving his chest along with the music that is just :encore:), everything. So you are actually watching dance.

Also, I've noticed that during this year's Junior Worlds (I might not be the only one) : in the past, you would have ladies that were looking up to some other female ice dancers (Oksana Grishuk, Shae-Lynn Bourne, Tessa Virtue, Meryl Davis, Tatiana Navka, etc). And then they'll try to channel them a bit (or a lot) that is very common for girls. However, you find more and more male dancers trying to be a strong male on their own, not just presenting, and many of them reminded me of Guillaume. There's a focus on the male dancer that wasn't necessarily here before, the man is dancing a bit more now. It's more of a shared dance than a presentation.
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Huh? Are you saying because of P/C many junior teams are now starting to focus on the man being more of an equal dancer because of Cizeron? Please. I’m sure Scott Moir, Ben Agosto, Charlie White, Luca Lanotte and Alex Shibutani would have something to say about this.

But like others have said, P/C ubers like to think P/C invented ice dancing so maybe I’m not surprised at this post.
 
:sheep:
Why so insecure ?
If you have nothing nice or pertinent to say, don't say anything at all. I love how nothing that I said is being repeated but you must create a fanwar out of nowhere for the sake of proving how much the skaters talked about in this thread don't matter. Ignore list keeps growing even after the Olympics I guess.
 
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Why are people reading fan threads when they're clearly not fan or even more not liking a team is beyond me. Maybe we should open an underground thread under the paid section not to offend those who can't stand any praises thrown at P/C. And no one has ever said P/C invented ID, I even mention other teams taking a non conventional approach way before P/C but it might have more of an impact now because of good timing. People are more ready for those changes. But it's easier to just see things in black and white I guess.
Ultimately, if we want to gloat about our favs we don't need people to police this thread. You can go start a separate thread about gender dynamics in ice dance, it would be extremely interesting actually.
 
cocotaffy said:
Why are people reading fan threads when they're clearly not fan or even more not liking a team is beyond me. Maybe we should open an underground thread under the paid section not to offend those who can't stand any praises thrown at P/C. And no one has ever said P/C invented ID, I even mention other teams taking a non conventional approach way before P/C but it might have more of an impact now because of good timing. People are more ready for those changes. But it's easier to just see things in black and white I guess.
Ultimately, if we want to gloat about our favs we don't need people to police this thread. You can go start a separate thread about gender dynamics in ice dance, it would be extremely interesting actually.
Click to expand...

The way I see it is that a fan thread is the most harmless place to go OTT about your favorite. You're not annoying the fans who don't care in the general threads, you're not going into the another skater's fan thread to tell their fans "Mine is better than yours so suck it". It's the most considerate way of being an uber really.

The continued policing of this thread has become weird, desperate, and obsessive. It's like we, the P/C fans, have become the object of fixation now that the rivalry is over.
 
Twilight1 said:
Or it could be that people are so desperate to hear about their second favourite team and the cool things THEY are doing. :D
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It's easy to spot those people because their posts actually show an interest in what P/C are doing. If someone only posts in this thread to defend another skater/country/federation, then no.
 
True that- I hope people know that my beef was with the politiks and not the skaters.


That said, can I please explicitly state that I hope they do a slow continental tango next season. I posted some great ones in the Dance thread and one was of just the guitar playing a slow tango. I could sooooo see them do well with that style.
 
Twilight1 said:
True that- I hope people know that my beef was with the politiks and not the skaters.


That said, can I please explicitly state that I hope they do a slow continental tango next season. I posted some great ones in the Dance thread and one was of just the guitar playing a slow tango. I could sooooo see them do well with that style.
Click to expand...

What are the options for the second rhythm? I can't find the info anywhere, but I hope they'll be able to do something like that rather than some Frankenstein tango-waltz. And I want to see Guillaume really take the lead like he did in the Paso SD.
 
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