Had Maria duplicated her 99 Worlds performances at the 2002 Olympic Games does she win gold?

[butyrskafanatic]

I imagine she does. Sarah Hughes of course was the winner. Maria's short program from the 99 worlds which was much better than her shaky and slow short from the 2002 Olympics would atleast place her 3rd, and might have even placed her 1st as neither Kwan or Slutskaya had perfect skates. She would not even need to be 3rd, with Sarah winning Maria would technically need to only be 6th in the short anyway.

Then the long programs I think her 99 worlds long would easily beat Sarah. The much better quality lutzes and flips would easily negate the cheated triple-triples edge. Maria would atleast tie Sarah's technical marks and easily beat her artistic marks.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don’t believe so because Of Kwan.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I don’t believe so because Of Kwan.

I dont see what Kwan has to do with anything when she skated poorly and won a bronze medal. To win the gold would only require beating Hughes which would have been easy for Maria at her best as she was at the 99 worlds. The only way she wouldnt is if the location (United States) came into play, but then Irina with one of her worst ever long programs lost the long program and gold by only the tiebreak tenth of one judge.

 

[screech]

Russian in USA after the pairs 'scandal'? I don't think so, as much as I would have loved for it to happen.

 

[olympic]

Are all other things equal? For example, same start orders? Same finishes in 2000 and 2001?

Butyrskaya skated first after the warm-up in the last group. They may have held her marks down a bit for the bigger skaters to come which would have made a win difficult.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Are all other things equal? For example, same start orders? Same finishes in 2000 and 2001?

Butyrskaya skated first after the warm-up in the last group. They may have held her marks down a bit for the bigger skaters to come which would have made a win difficult.

Hmm good question. Well remember I did say the same short and longs as the 99 worlds. Her short at the 99 worlds was obviously much better than her short at the 2002 Olympics, so I am sure she would be higher than 5th, and atleast above Hughes, and probably above Cohen when her much poorer shorter at the actual games still lost to Hughes by only .1 in the short and had 3 3rd place ordinals over Cohen. Even higher than 3rd isnt impossible as Kwan and Slutskaya were both clean but not perfect, but she would be atleast 3rd probably, and for sure over Hughes who is now 5th.

I agree her marks would have been held back a bit due to the start order and not being the favorite, but Hughes who skated 2nd and had the same situation were too. Remember Hughes did not receive a single 5.9 on either set, and had some marks of 5.7s and even 5.6. And if she skates after Butyrskaya skating this well, and being ahead of her after the short too, her marks are probably even lower still than this. So beating Hughes is still entirely possible, especialy as I just said she is now clearly above Hughes after the short presuming her short from the 99 worlds or a similar caliber short.

 

[Jarrett]

I don't think so. I think even if Maria was doing quads there wouldn't have given her a medal at those Olympics. I really felt the judges dumped her at the Olympics and 01 worlds.

 

[alchemy void]

No way.

While the 99 Blues SP was much better than the 02 creakfest, it still wasn’t one of her best short programs and her 99 peformance was still a little tight. She probably would have gotten another ordinal or two to place 4th ahead of Hughes, instead of 5th.

LP: No way does this best Hughes or Slutskaya (the definitive Russian number 1 with all the political backing). By this point in their careers, I think Slutskaya has a 2 triple advantage of Maria.

And to be totally honest, even though her jumps were spectacular in that miraculous 99 Worlds LP, she was really just skating right through all the choreography. Compare Otonal ‘99 to Otonal at ‘97 GPF, the phrasing of the program is so much better executed in 97-98.

She probably is able to beat Kwan in the LP because of the fall and a two triple advantage.

So overall I don’t even think she gets to bronze. I don’t see any scenario where she would have been placed better than 4th in the SP and 3rd in the LP.

So maybe something like...

2-2 Slutskaya 3.0
5-1 Hughes 3.5
1-4 Kwan 4.5
4-3 Butyrskaya 5.5
3-5 Cohen 6.5

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Maria was robbed of a medal IMO at the 2001 worlds but she wasnt exactly dumped. She lost a medal by her horrible Q round skate, without that she medals even with a shaky short, and a strong but technically easier long than all of Kwan, Slutskaya, and Hughes. IMO she should have been higher than 5th in the short but it wasnt her best, and she still had 2 2nd place ordinals over Kwan not even skating in the final flight. I would have had her 4th over Hughes in the short, but she wasnt that wrongly marked. Then the long I would have had her 2nd to Slutskaya even with the doubled 2nd lutz and some shaky landings which would have given her the bronze just as being 4th in the short would have, but there was obviously basis to have her 3rd. She was the only skater who any judges gave a higher presentation mark than Kwan, and the only skater besides Kwan to have some 5.9s on the 2nd mark (I believe Irina got none that night). So while I think she deserved a medal, it wasnt exactly an outright dumping.

Most of the times in 2001-2002 she was her own worst enemy. She even had a big shot to win the 2000-2001 Grand Prix final before Worlds IMO, her scores for her short program with a fall and her 3 triple 1st long program sure indicate that, and after her controversial loss to slutskaya at NHK and with neither Irina or Michelle doing that great here, I am almost sure she would have gotten the benefit of doubt, even her worlds SP and LP probably win that seasons GPF which would have given her some big momentum for Worlds that year. Instead she blew it, and even did a 1 triple pathetic 2nd LP to lose to Hughes for the first time ever.

Now with the Games in the U.S and a dropping status she wasnt going to get any gifts, that is for sure, but I dont think it means she wouldnt be rewarded if she really skated well.

 

[Marco]

In the short, Michelle and Irina were on a 5/4 split, and ordinals for Sasha, Sarah and herself were all over the place. If Maria had skated stronger, who knows what the ordinals might have been. She might have pushed Sarah further down and caused her to NOT control her own destiny vis - a - vis Irina. Michelle might not have won the short.

And depending on the results of the short, the whole dynamics at the top would have been quite different for the free. Michelle came from behind to win both 2000 and 2001 Worlds over Irina and Maria.

 

[lala]

I voted yes, but because I loved Maria so much. I have no other reason

 

[caseyedwards]

I dont see what Kwan has to do with anything when she skated poorly and won a bronze medal. To win the gold would only require beating Hughes which would have been easy for Maria at her best as she was at the 99 worlds. The only way she wouldnt is if the location (United States) came into play, but then Irina with one of her worst ever long programs lost the long program and gold by only the tiebreak tenth of one judge.

A strong amazing Kwan was great inspiration to maria and so could she be great with a weakened Kwan?!

 

[butyrskafanatic]

A strong amazing Kwan was great inspiration to maria and so could she be great with a weakened Kwan?!

She her only worlds with a weakened Kwan so I think that situation is fine for her, LOL! And lets face it, by that point in time Maria was never beating an inspired Kwan or a clean Slutskaya anyhow, in 2000 maybe, in 2002 in the U.S, distant Russian #2, and having dropped to 4th or 5th in the world pecking order, never. As this poll shows most here dont believe the judges would have even allowed her to beat a clean Hughes (or what qualifies as clean under 6.0 thinking for a flutzing, wild toe kicking, and underrotation queen), so she would be quite happy with a weakened Kwan.

 

[shady82]

I vote yes. She would have placed 4th in short, 1st in long. It was clear from the marks Sarah got that the judges did not want to give her the gold or the best long, unless Kwan or Slutskaya skated decently.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I vote yes. She would have placed 4th in short, 1st in long. It was clear from the marks Sarah got that the judges did not want to give her the gold or the best long, unless Kwan or Slutskaya skated decently.

I dont know why people are only putting her 4th in the short honestly though. Her short in SLC sucked for her standards and 3 judges still put her 3rd over Cohen. It would be easy for her to have been atleast 3rd with even a decent short by her standards.

At the GPF just before the Games she also had a much better short than the Games, although still not her best and was 2nd behind Slutskaya and over Kwan on a 4-3 split. Kwan had one shaky but clean jump, which is the same she had at the Games anyway, it was just the triple lutz combo instead of the triple flip this time. Slutskaya had a much stronger short at the GPF than the Games, which is the only reason she won with every judge over Maria. Granted GPF was not in the U.S.

 

[briancoogaert]

I don't think so. She was brilliant at 1999 Worlds, but her SP was also brilliant. In 2002, judges didn't seem to like them anymore... Even with a good skate, I'm not sure they would have given her a medal.