Ashley Wagner: Did Rafael Make a Difference?

Raf said in an interview that Ashley was not approaching her training in a professional manner.
 
My theory is that in the past Ashley had peaked too early in the season, right around her 1st and 2nd GP. By GPF and Nats, she'd fizzle out. So having noticed that, Raf may have a different strategy this Olympic season, starting out slow and accelerating preparation towards the most important competitions.

Or she just isn't ready just because. Still, better now than later in the season.
 
Ashley has always been one of my favorite skaters. I think peaking later is just silly. Improvements will (hopefully) come during the season. Every skater should IMO be prepared to come out and skate to win each competition (certainly at Ashley's level).

And, frankly, if Ashley peaked last year, I am wondering when that happened. I must have missed it.
 
AxelAnnie said:
Raf said in an interview that Ashley was not approaching her training in a professional manner.
Click to expand...

No he didn't. He said that there aren't professionals like there used to be (when it comes to training). And he referenced Kwan as the one true professional he's worked with, in terms of her work ethic. He's said this multiple times in interviews before. I don't think it was a slight to Ashley, but he's definitely saying that she (and all his other current students) are no Kwan.
 
cbd1235 said:
No he didn't. He said that there aren't professionals like there used to be (when it comes to training). And he referenced Kwan as the one true professional he's worked with, in terms of her work ethic. He's said this multiple times in interviews before. I don't think it was a slight to Ashley, but he's definitely saying that she (and all his other current students) are no Kwan.
Click to expand...
What he actually said is:
EV: What do you mean by professionals?
RA: It happened when I was working with Michelle Kwan. She came to one of the practices 20 minutes earlier. I told her I think it's a bit late. Michelle smiled and said she woke up at 8am, had a full training in her home gym. She came to the rink 20 minutes before the practice so she would have time to warm up again and be completely ready by the time she is on the ice. On the other hand there are skaters who consider it allright to come to the ice and then start the warm up. That's what they are used to. You start changing their minds, their attitude, and you gain some success, but once you stop looking too closely all is back to square one. That's the hardest thing about working with the mature skaters
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By mature skaters, IMO, he is referring to Ashley.
 
There are many top skaters at Raf's camp and he can't possibly watch over all of them all the time like a babysitter. When these skaters are at the elite level, a certain level of self-discipline should automatically be there. I believe Raf is saying she is lacking the sort of self initiation and self discipline to go one further step.

I also wonder if Ashley has lost motivation because she now has an Olympic team medal, a World silver, a couple GPF medals, a 4CCs title and a couple of National titles. She really isn't going to improve on that much more. 3 National titles and 4 National titles don't make that much difference. She isn't going to win Worlds or an actual individual Olympic medal. My belief is that she has seen through all these and understand that she is basically sure-in for the Olys and the team event (/medal) now that Gracie and Polina are very much out, and she and Karen are the only big names left. Ever since 2016 Worlds she is just buying time until she gets / cruises to her second Olympic team medal.
 
Lol @AxelAnnie maybe your leap was an illegal element? :)

I think we should make allowances for this being a translation. He may have just meant any skater who didn't start with him at age 6.
 
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AxelAnnie said:
Well...did I at least get +GOE on my leap? Who else does he coach that is "mature"?
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Currently? Adam Rippon, Romain Ponsart, and Michal Březina.

Previously? Alexander Abt, Ivan Dinev, Kiira Korpi, and Sasha Cohen, a.

Dude knows his "mature" skaters.

Keep training that axel, Annie.
 
That wording is vague enough that I don’t buy he’s specifically singling out Ashley with that comment. I can think of at least 2 other “mature” skaters off the top of my head that he coaches, and there are probably more that I don’t know about. It seems more to me that he’s referring to all of them in general as a collective.

As for how committed and motivated she is, that’s something only Ashley herself and perhaps Raf know. Burnout is a very real thing that can be difficult to overcome without an extended break no matter how hard you try to push through it.
 
cbd1235 said:
No he didn't. He said that there aren't professionals like there used to be (when it comes to training). And he referenced Kwan as the one true professional he's worked with, in terms of her work ethic. He's said this multiple times in interviews before. I don't think it was a slight to Ashley, but he's definitely saying that she (and all his other current students) are no Kwan.
Click to expand...

He also worked with Mao and we all know that she is very hardworking, maybe he did not mention her because she was overtraining and was known at some point that she was going to train behind his back when she was supposed to be resting. But no coach has complained about her ethical work. Anyway, I've always believed that Rafael was kind of in love with Michelle, so what else can he say?

But I doubt that the problem is a lack of motivation of Ashley, we are 3 months from the Olympics, how can someone be unmotivated? unless she has an injury.
 
I think it is lack of motivation. But it is all speculation. She let down last year and had a taste of less, work (as clearly demonstrated in her programs) and is having trouble revving back up. She should not ever be under rotating and two footing jumps.........not with her rep. She will always be closely watched. As for spins.......if they are too hard for her, then maybe she has to think about the entire matter.

Her TES was 12 points behind KO in the short. And her TES was 13.5 pts behind Kaetlyn who had a fall and biff and a problem combo in the free.

When Ashley first went to Raf she praised his unusual techniques....his work on technique & stamina. He had them do full run throughs on exhausted legs.

The skates she put at at SC do not look like a demonstration of the kind of work she spoke of her first year with RAF.

And I like Ashley!
 
I almost get the feeling with Gracie being out for this season and her bad season last year that it also effected Ashley. Skaters may say they don't pay attention to other skaters but Gracie was the one who pushed her to have to start doing 3-3 jumps back in 2013 or she was in danger of being passed by Gracie who was already challenging her despite not having the reputation yet of Wagner. Ashley knew she had to be on her game to beat Gracie and even then it might not be enough if Gracie skated clean or nearly clean but i don't think Ashley feels as pushed going up against Karen, Mirai or Mariah or any US lady for instance.
 
RoseRed said:
Raf probably would though. He's made a point, unprompted, in multiple interviews to point out that Mariah "is NOT a little girl".
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Maybe
But I kind of see young lady as opposed to middle aged skater
 
Vagabond said:
Middle age begins at 35 and ends at 58 :blah:

When does middle age really begin? On your 53rd birthday: Rising life expectancy means it no longer hits when you're 41:summer:

Perkova will be glad to know this. :)
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“You are seen as middle aged if you enjoy afternoon naps, choose comfort over style and groan when you bend down, according to a survey of 2,000 adults. Other supposed signs of middle age cited by those questioned included going on cruise holidays and preferring a quiet night in to a night out.”

I already do some of these things, oh god. Spoke to soon. :shuffle:
 
My 85 year old aunt was attempting to place flowers on the alter at her church. She backed up, forgetting there were stairs behind her and fell flat on her back, and got knocked out. The Paramedics arrived. They told her they had to take her to the hospital. She asked why. They said they were required to take all elder people to the hospital for observation after a fall. She replied "Young man, I will have you know I am not elderly...I am Pre-Elderly!"
 
I was rewatching a better quality SC clip in slo-mo and felt the lutz edge was improved. It looked to be on a flat right before take off, I am not sure if it was even "!"-worthy, let alone "e".

I also felt the 3flip3toe and first 3loop looked to be sufficiently rotated.
 
I am totally late to the party, and one day I *promise* I will learn to edit my rants, but...
We have had this same convo before after Ashley threw away what most of us felt was her last shot at a World medal in 2015. What transpired in the next season is evidence enough to say that Raf indeed had a positive impact on Ashley's skating. Who would predict that AFTER Sochi, she would be adding consistently attempted 3-3's in both programs along with a 2nd-half 3-3 sequence? She was simply not competitive until these became 'normal' for her and not a Hail Mary at Worlds.

Ashley needed a 'team' overseeing all aspects of her skating. She needs Raf while being watched like a hawk by Shae to push transitions, tweak things after competitions, and polish her come the post-season. Then, there are her spins and footwork/edging. We saw glimpses of what such a scenario could produce in 2012 and 2013. Were all of her Mills' programs masterpieces? No; but, she kept them all season and she was a polished, complete package come Worlds both years. I think the steady buildup to a peak at Worlds benefitted Ashley greatly, and seems to be an American approach that Raf seems totally detached from. I doubt he treated her practices before 2015 Worlds any differently than he had during the GP. There is nothing wrong with that, but damn it, Nicks-Mills would not have let that chance slip away.

I do think people are a little too dismissive of the Nicks-Mills era in her career, however. In the fall of 2012, Ashley was considered one of the premier contenders for the World title. She was killing it on the GP and it was noticed; and, then she fell on her hip at the GPF and knocked the wind out of her career. Gold overshadowed her Nationals win, she was unable to get the 3-3 ready for London, and a fall on her LP footwork sealed her fate as USA #2. She was THIS close to getting that World medal in 2012, 2013, and 2015, and has always been within 5 points or less from 4th place. Her 2014 and 2017 seasons would have been treated far differently with a 4 or 5 in place of those 7's.

I am incredibly disappointed to see her going back to Moulin Rouge and looking as 'behind' as she does right now. R&J was a dreadful program so she was without choice in 2014, but the whole idea was to go back to a character-driven program this year that would highlight her growth since MR. Instead, she's admitting that there was no growth. I don't mean to play armchair psychologist, but I actually do think there is a major mental component holding her back, stemming from her just missing out on Vancouver. We all saw what happened in 2014, and so I feel like Ashley would rather skate safely to 7th than end up in either of those scenarios again having taken a risk.
 
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