U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

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I can barely handle the thought of Nathan, Vincent + 1, but if that +1 is Max I'm afraid I'll never watch US men's skating ever again. Some of you have atrocious taste in skating. non artistic filth :scream:

I'm extremely impressed with Vincent though, Jason and Adam have their work cut out for them this year. He's improved ten fold.
 
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Nathan and Vincent are young with similar indefatigible determination and apparent steely, understated reserve (& command of quads). Neither are genius artistically, but they indeed are budding artists who know how to move to the music and they both feel and seem to understand the beginnings of how to express the music rather than skate over it, as so many young skaters without musicality tend to do.

Jason and Adam are more complete artists with very good technical basics and consistency when healthy, but less ease of facility in acquiring quads, for different reasons. (Jason needs more height and quick rotations; Adam did not learn great basic technique and superior skating skills as a youngster, so he's had to re-adjust his learning curve under Rafael's tutelage, and he's older so the entire process is more difficult, more incremental). However, both Jason & Adam have plenty of veteran experience and they have been very successful at applying what they have learned through ups-and-downs, injuries, losses, victories, etc. Plus, J & A are in excellent physical shape and they are both wonderful artists who know how to weave a story through expressing the music with passion, attention to detail, and full commitment to their choreo. And they have made progress with landing quads through hard work and relentless effort.

ETA:
It goes without saying that neither J or A have extremely narrow hips, which of course is not the only requirement needed to master quads. However, in terms of getting those quick rotations, narrow hips can be an asset combined with other athletic abilities and figure skating aptitude.

Of course Elvis, Joubert, and Plush do not have narrow hips either, but perhaps their thigh and leg strength gave them excellent spring and enough height to get those 4 rotations around as quickly as possible.
 
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Karpenko said:
I can barely handle the thought of Nathan, Vincent + 1, but if that +1 is Max I'm afraid I'll never watch US men's skating ever again. Some of you have atrocious taste in skating. non artistic filth :scream:

I'm extremely impressed with Vincent though, Jason and Adam have their work cut out for them this year. He's improved ten fold.
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Nathan is far from being "non-artistic filth" (unless you're calling people who want them on the team "non artistic filth"...and if that's the case then, "wow, harsh Tai!"). He's a beautiful skater. It's just his LPs are so quad focused and he's still developing that he can't fully show off how excellent his skating is outside the jumps. Even so, you can still see his excellent foundation. Anyway, Vincent has really improved from the SP video I saw.
 
Karpenko said:
I can't understand why so many people are obsessed with quads.
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It's a long saga @Karpenko, hashed over in threads here quite often, no? Suffice to say my friend, it's the numbers game. And the pretension that quads are pushing forward the sport. I beg to differ, but no one cares. No one. 'Have quad(s), will travel to international podium' (when combined with other superior talents, and even subpar talents on occasion, eh).

That's the lesson that Nathan Chen learned. He learned it well. As are Vincent and other youngsters absorbing the same lesson. The rest is sadly, the state of men's figure skating.
 
That's just the way sport is, you have to keep progressing with the jumps. Now Nathan and Vincent are also progressing artistically. I'm just bitter and being a snot. I hope Jason has that quad salchow this season because he's really going to need it.
 
^^ I was responding to your lament @Karpenko. Technical jumping progress is one thing. Constructive and beneficial progress as a whole for the sport is entirely another thing, and it's not really happening. I include in that overall development for skaters, which means fine-tuning basic skating skills and revolutionizing blade expertise. There should be many more superb SS masters in this sport besides Patrick Chan. That would be the real definition of progress. Just pushing jumping boundaries is lopsided. Figure skating is about way more than the jumps. In fact, jumps are ancillary to how the sport developed. That needs to be understood before any problems the sport faces can be adequately addressed. But again, no one cares to hear this line of thought.

Here are some fp results for Skate Detroit men and pairs from Rocker Skating/ Jackie Wong:
http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2017/7/20/2017-skate-detroit-play-by-playresults

And Vincent fp:
https://twitter.com/magicaleggrolls/status/888847010044018688 pt 1
https://twitter.com/magicaleggrolls/status/888848247644487680 pt 2
The Twitter provider of these clips said they will load the program later on Youtube in its entirety

Vincent did not perform as well in the fp. He popped a jump and fell on another. He didn't seem to have as much energy, yet he still won the competition. While he started out okay, he seemed to run out of steam. It is still the off-season of course, but Vincent seemed to struggle with his command of keeping up with and expressing the music along with executing the difficult tech content. This is probably not good music for Vincent. I wonder if they will decide to change it? Vincent was overscored I think for a subpar performance in fp. So I am hoping he doesn't get a pass for this type of performance in future. It would not score well internationally.

I do not see any free programs uploaded on Youtube for Skate Detroit men and pairs yet.
 
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Vincent attempted a four quad program with two 3A in th second half. He popped his 4T but landed the other three, although with a hook. He was probably just tired. He needs to build his stamina up like Nathan did.
 
Karpenko said:
I can barely handle the thought of Nathan, Vincent + 1, but if that +1 is Max I'm afraid I'll never watch US men's skating ever again. Some of you have atrocious taste in skating. non artistic filth :scream:.
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I still don't understand how some can watch Nathan's SP from last season and say he has no artistry. Or his programs before he decided to focus on the quads, for that matter. Here's a skater who I see as having immense artistic potential. Yeah, some of you do have atrocious taste in skating. :D
 
shine said:
I still don't understand how some can watch Nathan's SP from last season and say he has no artistry. Or his programs before he decided to focus on the quads, for that matter. Here's a skater who I see as having immense artistic potential. Yeah, some of you do have atrocious taste in skating. :D
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People see what they want to see, I'm afraid. I loved his SP last year. So much ballet included and Nathan delivered! I've already since a clip of some choreography for next year. Believe me, he's PCS score is going up!
 
I'm a huge Jason Brown/Adam Rippon fan so it was all just bitter nonsense, and I agree that Nathan has huge potential artistically and more to offer than jumps. It was just a very bitchy moment when reality hit me that I'm not going to get my dream Olympic team. Me me me :violin:

Vincent's progress reminds me of Nathan's last season, it's going to make him very competitive this year. He's a well spoken young man who works really hard, and he deserves to reap the rewards of that hard work. He's turning into a major player, I expect him to make a big splash on the GP.

Get your butt in gear with those quads Jason/Adam, and FAST! :gallopin1
 
Well I'm definitely not one of those who feel Nathan has no artistry. I will reiterate in case my observation was misunderstood. I've been watching Nathan from a young age and rooting for him all the way. I loved his Michael Jackson sp his last season on the JGP. It's been fun watching him grow up. Nathan is a well-rounded skater for his age with superb technique and extraordinary jumping ability, combined with nerves of steel. That is not a small thing. He's won everything at every level he's competed with musicality, creativity, and top-notch technical skill. His main struggles have been with bone growth issues and injuries. And recently, the worn-out boot catastrophe from jumping quads. I said in my earlier post that Nathan is not a genius artistically, and he's not. That doesn't mean he has no artistry. He has got a great feel for the music (musicality), ballet training, an energetic, edgy and modern approach, and he's definitely a budding artist. However, he has learned very well that the ticket to the podium has quads written all over it. And since Nathan loves to jump and he has an excellent technical coach, no problem. He has amazingly set multiple quad jumping records and put the rest of the international men's division on emergency wake-up call. :lol:

Again though, it's not just about the jumps, so the sport is a bit bipolar and in denial at the moment. No one cares though, least of all the jumping dynamos. Both Nathan and Vincent have wonderful artistic sensibilities, which a lot of skaters do not have at ages 16 and 17. Still, they are budding artists who need to further develop and gain a bit of maturity. Nathan and his coach understand and they know what they are about, so I'm not at all worried about Nathan slam-dunking artistically and technically. You can tell from Nathan's exhibitions that he has great style, albeit still raw and a bit rough around the edges. He has his priorities in order though. 5 and 6 quad programs do not allow for full concentration on weaving a story to the music.

Frida80 said:
Vincent attempted a four quad program with two 3A in th second half. He popped his 4T but landed the other three, although with a hook. He was probably just tired. He needs to build his stamina up like Nathan did.
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Yeah, so. My comments stand. Vincent had problems getting through this performance. It's not as good a music selection as he had last season for his fp. They definitely need to rethink this music, IMHO. I'm sure Vincent will work out the kinks in terms of his stamina. But the music is at this stage overwhelming his performance. Vincent also needs to focus more on polishing and extending out his moves. Nathan is better in that regard.
 
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aftershocks said:
Well I'm definitely not one of those who feel Nathan has no artistry. I will reiterate in case my observation was misunderstood on purpose. I've been watching Nathan from a young age and rooting for him all the way. I loved his Michael Jackson sp his last season on the JGP. It's been fun watching him grow up. Nathan is a well-rounded skater for his age with superb technique and extraordinary jumping ability, combined with nerves of steel. That is not a small thing. He's won everything at every level he's competed with musicality, creativity, and top-notch technical skill. His main struggles have been with bone growth issues and injuries. And recently, the worn-out boot catastrophe from jumping quads. I said in my earlier post that Nathan is not a genius artistically, and he's not. That doesn't mean he has no artistry. He has got a great feel for the music (musicality), ballet training, an energetic, edgy and modern approach, and he's definitely a budding artist. However, he has learned very well that the ticket to the podium has quads written all over it. And since Nathan loves to jump and he has an excellent technical coach, no problem. He has amazingly set multiple quad jumping records and put the rest of the international men's division on emergency wake-up call. :lol:

Again though, it's not just about the jumps, so the sport is a bit bipolar and in denial at the moment. No one cares though, least of all the jumping dynamos. Both Nathan and Vincent have wonderful artistic sensibilities, which a lot of skaters do not have at ages 16 and 17. Still, they are budding artists who need to further develop and gain a bit of maturity. Nathan and his coach understand and they know what they are about, so I'm not at all worried about Nathan slam-dunking artistically and technically. You can tell from Nathan's exhibitions that he has great style, albeit still raw and a bit rough around the edges. He has his priorities in order though. 5 and 6 quad programs do not allow for full concentration on weaving a story to the music.



Yeah, so. My comments stand. Vincent had problems getting through this performance. It's not as good a music selection as he had last season for his fp. They definitely need to rethink this music, IMHO. I'm sure Vincent will work out the kinks in terms of his stamina. But the music is at this stage overwhelming his performance. Vincent also needs to focus more on polishing and extending out his moves. Nathan is better in that regard.
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I didn't see your previous post above mine. My comment was just an off comment.

As for the music, I don't think it suits him. That piece has been used by some of the most graceful and artistic skaters. His posture and movement isn't polished as this piece requires. I doubt he'll reconsider. But he just needs to get through this year.
 
And kisses @danafan, it was all directed at you.

If Vincent can pull off even 4 quads in the GP he's going to score well enough technically to be competitive. He's junior world champion and has improved a lot since winning that title, there's no way he won't be a top 10 senior skater if he's consistent from now on IMO.

Last year is now last year. I do believe he could pull off a 5-6 quad program at some point in the future, his technique is pretty good already. And good for him really, there's so much depth in the US men's program that I think we're in for a very successful 2018-2022. So much talent coming up in our men's program! :40beers:
 
Frida80 said:
People see what they want to see, I'm afraid. I loved his SP last year. So much ballet included and Nathan delivered! I've already since a clip of some choreography for next year. Believe me, he's PCS score is going up!
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I also saw that short clip a few days ago and believe his PCS will go up, a lot. Nathan's strategy was to make a name with those quads last year and this year he's likely to focus more on skating.
 
Frida80 said:
I didn't see your previous post above mine. My comment was just an off comment.

As for the music, I don't think it suits him. That piece has been used by some of the most graceful and artistic skaters. His posture and movement isn't polished as this piece requires. I doubt he'll reconsider. But he just needs to get through this year.
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Okay, I understand. There are of course people who criticize Nathan on PCS, but that's just sour grapes mostly by fans of other top contending men. The beauty is that Nathan is state-of the-art, especially technically. But he has the power and potential to be and do so much more beyond the jumping. However, the sport only wants quads, while giving lip service to aesthetics and performance. The judges do not even understand how to properly tell the difference between levels of performance ability and skaters with musicality vs skaters who skate over the music. Boyang Jin has made some very good improvements this past season, but he's still not a musically aware skater. However, he's a great jumper who apparently only needs to be consistent with the jumps and find vehicles like Spiderman to mug through in order to rack up points. Nathan is a much better performer musically and artistically than Jin. Vincent, as you agree with me, simply needs to mature and learn how to polish off and fully extend his moves. And hopefully his team will recognize that this fp music is not working for him. Last season they got a better sp for Vincent. Hopefully they will rethink the fp this season. I think Vincent will get there. He's well on his way, but I don't trust the tendency for judges to politically pick and choose how, who, and when they over-reward.

ETA: BTW, if you think Vincent just needs to get through this season, well I have to be honest and say that Vincent should have future opportunities to make the Olympics. Therefore, I hope that Jason and Adam will be able to do enough (flash a quad or two with their artistic talent) and make the Olympic team with Nathan.

While Hanyu and Shoma are quite excellent skaters, especially in terms of smooth flowing movement quality, neither can hold a candle to Dai Takahashi's charismatic bravura when it comes to superb artistry, musicality, and performance ability. Shoma needs to fix his technique problems (flutzes & pre-rotations) that the judges overlook. Hanyu has had problems with endurance and with skating clean programs consistently, but the wow suspension quality of his quads and his magically tight rotations with superb flowout blind judges to the fact he has a distracting loosey-goosey quality. Moreover, Hanyu never pays attention to even attempting to point his feet or fine-tune his aesthetic qualities. He's been quite often heavily overscored on PCS. And Shoma has also this past season. That's not to say they aren't good. It's just that their weaknesses are overlooked which sends a strange message that they don't have anything to improve upon, when in fact they do. Their smooth flowing qualities, especially Shoma's precocious hypnotizing ability to move over the ice like butter compensates for or covers up the fact that neither are exceptionally good at musical interpretation. It only appears that they are. Dai was the real consummate artist and genius storyteller.
 
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aftershocks said:
Speaking of Nathan:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWdDn4HAWVN/?taken-by=nathanwchen&hl=en :D My oh Mai
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVGcq3GA_Wk/?taken-by=nathanwchen&hl=en boots galore
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUhX2LsAvlL/?taken-by=nathanwchen&hl=en Double trouble! :encore: :respec:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP73I0bFVbo/?taken-by=nathanwchen&hl=en :lol: Superhero

Where's the Nathan program clip you are talking about @Frida80?
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It was briefly on Instagram a few days ago posted by a fan at the rink Nathan was at. Unfortunately, it's gone now. But what I saw was exactly what I wanted to see in his choreography. Dynamic moves that engage the audience.
 
^^ Oh, I see. So whoever uploaded the Nathan clip to Instagram did not have permission to do so then. When will we get to see Nathan's first outing? Later this summer?
 
Zhou FS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxmHxEZdlU

The first minute is not nice to watch, great prologue opening and nothing besides jumping, no connection to the music at all.
I might be the minority, but Zhous skating I don't like. This is too much jump-loaded, too much poses.

Love the music switch for the end, this is not the R&J soundtrack, but still Craig Armstrong though (forgot the piece);
this part I like way better and better connection to the music there.
 
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aftershocks said:
^^ I was responding to your lament @Karpenko. There should be many more superb SS masters in this sport besides Patrick Chan. That would be the real definition of progress. Just pushing jumping boundaries is lopsided. Figure skating is about way more than the jumps.
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A few season's back technical became synonymous with jumping. Now, when people say a skater needs to improve technically they mean jumping. But, skating is a sport requiring many types of athleticism - balance, control, use of the equipment, etc. A free skate is an all-around display of these skills. The lopsided emphasis on jumps and jump-points is dumbing-down the sport.

Vincent is trying to smooth out transitions and improve positions, but 90% of what I saw was the setup for the next quad/3A. (Not a put down of Vincent. In piano we say a passage is not playable. I say at some point jumps make it impossible to turn in a Brown/Chan-type skate) By the end I was just weary.
 
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His quality of movement has improved though, and he's listening to his music more and keeping up with it. We can't expect a miracle, baby steps first and then he can find his inner Jason Brown. I'd like to see more charisma and stretch, agree about the transitions and programs but he's definitely improved artistically this year IMO. Also skating skills and performance skills are a bit better, plus the new quads.

I kind of wish he would've went with the original version of "Chasing Cars" though, if you're going to use vocals you might as well take advantage of the powerful and emotional ending. This feels like the glee version of the song.

It's starting to feel like Russian ladies, now we need 4 spots. It just had to happen this year, I'm going to be so sad for someone at Nationals and am already sort of dreading that moment.
 
aftershocks said:
^^ Oh, I see. So whoever uploaded the Nathan clip to Instagram did not have permission to do so then. When will we get to see Nathan's first outing? Later this summer?
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Actually, she posted it on her my story part of Instagram. It's like snapchat, where the video is available for only a day.

Nathan said he would start his season at US Classic. I haven't heard about any summer comps so far.
 
Look. IMO, if a 16 yr old lands a 4Z and 4F in a SP and a LP at a Summer comp., I think I'm only going to be looking at the positives. We can certainly acknowledge Vincent has work to do on PCS, but c'mon ...

ETA - I think the best thing to come out of Skate Detroit is that the TPTB have to begin considering that Vincent Zhou is a contender for an Olympic spot. Jason, Adam, Max, Josh, Grant et al have to contend w/ both Nathan / Vincent and an arsenal of quads, which means that they all will really have to be on their game to get past Nationals. I also believe that Jason and Adam can no longer forego quad attempts in this year's programs and expect a guarantee of a spot on the Olympic team based on high GOE triples and great choreography. Or if they do, it will be at their own peril. It's no longer a luxury for them to consider 'should I or shouldn't I?' No. It has to be done. Since the US has 3 spots, maybe one could leave out quads, but that is a risk.

Here's hoping US men turn into Russian ladies (except we need a world beater)
 
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I can't imagine that either Jason or Adam expect their spots on the Olympic Team are guaranteed with or without quads.

Both of them are smart guys who were regularly attempting quads last year before injuries sidelined them. We haven't heard much from Adam recently, but Jason has already said that his goal this season is to have two quads in the short and two in the long. I doubt he'll start the season that way, and whether or not he succeeds is open to question, but nobody can say the guy is clueless or isn't trying.
 
olympic said:
Look. IMO, if a 16 yr old lands a 4Z and 4F in a SP and a LP at a Summer comp., I think I'm only going to be looking at the positives. We can certainly acknowledge Vincent has work to do on PCS, but c'mon ...

ETA - I think the best thing to come out of Skate Detroit is that the TPTB have to begin considering that Vincent Zhou is a contender for an Olympic spot.
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TPTB were already considering Vincent a contender for an Olympic spot. He won the National silver medal, was named first alternate even before winning Junior Worlds, and was invited to the NBC press conference. It is fans who didn't come to grips with it until after Skate Detroit. I agree with the top two lines of your post, though.

I'm sure Jason & Adam will do the best they can. (I'm actually rather sure they have been doing so throughout their careers). Their strengths have not changed. They are beautiful skaters and I fully expect them to have gorgeous programs. In the end, they will do whatever jump layout allows them to score the most points. Whether that is any different from the jump layouts they have tried in the past will, again, depend on whether it allows them to score more points than their previous formats.
 
OK, I'll say it: I don't see where Nathan has artistry. His SP last year was a huge improvement over the year before, but when the bar is low, there's nowhere to go but up. His skating skills may be great, I can't tell, but that's not artistry.

And yes, I'm such a bitter, deluded, blind uber of other skaters that I just don't see that wonderful expression and performance skills that are right in front of me, and hey, I have Nathan's sixth grade ballet teacher telling me he's da bomb, so who am I to dispute it?:lol:

In the immortal words, I don't think so, Tim. I am indeed an uber. Of the one and only Toller Cranston, by whom I still measure every skater I watch. Nathan has not given me any "five Toller" skates, nor has Vincent. Other skaters have, and yes, Jason is among those skaters. So is Josh, Adam, Deniss V. , Misha, and others....

Are my "five Toller" evaluations my own opinion, based only on what I see and what I think? Of course it is, who else do I trust so much?;) It's my opinion, and you're welcome to say it's wrong. But don't kid yourself that it's from some willful, spiteful fandom. Unless it's of Toller, to which I freely admit:biggrinbo
 
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