Shibutanis thread 3: Evolution

[VGThuy]

For the Korean reference, this song is sort of on the cheesy side, but it's my favorite ballad from a Korean drama. This is what I was sort of thinking about in terms of sound, but without lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0RQInF9IM

I also think as Alex gets older, he's looking more and more like an actor you'd see in an Asian drama so I think he could sort of play that up.

 

[Spun Silver]

Thinking a bit more about the Korean suggestions, I wonder if it would work against them a bit to pander, as VGT says, to Korean audiences given the history of Korean-Japanese relations. It might be better to go Japanese and be so lovable that peace reigns at last. Or just forget the ethnic dimension. That said, I tried to talk another team into using music sung by Sumi Jo but they didn't go for it.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think Sumi Jo is for everyone since opera voices aren't common so people aren't as used to hearing anyone sing in that style. I remember when Michelle Kwan did that exhibition to one of her numbers and it was one of her lesser received ones mainly due to the music (plus Kwan's exhibitions were stale that season choreography-wise).

 

[chapis]

For the Korean reference, this song is sort of on the cheesy side, but it's my favorite ballad from a Korean drama. This is what I was sort of thinking about in terms of sound, but without lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0RQInF9IM

I also think as Alex gets older, he's looking more and more like an actor you'd see in an Asian drama so I think he could sort of play that up.

That music is very nice and fits their style.

And about reggaeton suggestion, I never imagined Shibs and reggaeton could be mentionned in the same sentence. It is enough difficult to me imagine reg. in ice dancing, but especially Maia and Alex are too much elegant for this dance. I can´t imagine them dancing it, literally. I think is extremly out of their comfort zone, IMO.

 

[teacakes]

My favourite [instrumental] OST from a K-drama is from Secret Love Affair (so totally not appropriate - so many k-dramas, especially the popular ones are romance) but it's just divine to listen to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNtS2pK9hsc&list=PLpAvh7eB3fKyEqMEzKhjG6kCt7uH9-s6Q&index=4

 

[DreamSkates]

Coldplay is as close to really opening up emotionally that the Shibs have ever done but they need to find something that tops that to even have a chance against teams that simply may be better then them.

Coldplay was the open door to new and exciting things for the Shibs. Just a start, not at all an ending.

 

[Subway]

When I said the Shibs should skate with abandon, I didn't mean open up emotionally. I meant physically. Trust their muscle memory and just skate. They have a set of the best, purest, surest skating skills in the business, second only to Virtue and Moir. I don't think another ice dancer, other than Scott Moir, could finish a rotational lift by rotating himself. Look how Virtue and Moir skate their programs, at their best it is with absolute freedom. If the Shibs leave the "making sure" on the practice ice, and simply "do it" on competitive ice, I don't think they can be denied. There will always be a competition where you don't have your skates underneath you and you just get it done, goes without saying, but for me, that is the one thing they can do that will make it impossible for judges to pretend some of these other teams are better.

 

[VGThuy]

One thing I always appreciated about the Shibs' lifts are that Alex really carries Maia. Some teams it looks like the woman is hanging on to dear life on the man and the lifts could look flingy. I also think the Shibs, when they have good lifts really have good lifts. That's why I was dissappointed when they were third in the Canton pecking order because some of their lifts at that time were unmemorable or generic when Igor left. That's why Fix You was great because they finally had lifts that I felt matched their abilities. They are one of the top teams when it comes to lifts.

I also think Chock/Bates don't get enough credit for almost always coming up with new and at times pretty impressive lifts (the lifts themselves and the transitions in and out). A wow lift for me this season is Bobrova/Soloviev's upside down rotational lift in their FD. When they get that one right, it's a real highlight.

 

[AYS]

Instagram video of Maia and Alex unwrapping a Christmas present together 20 years ago. Great teamwork even then.
https://instagram.com/p/BOgJ6kjBnM0/

 

[zilam98]

Anyway...

I was thinking about music for next season, and I wonder if music from Korean dramas would work well for them, or would that be pandering too much. I was talking to a friend about how K-Dramas have some really great music and they'd get the benefit of using a soundtrack (highs, lows, emotional arcs) without having to actually act out the storylines and they wouldn't be overused or too well-known. I also think it would fit their natural more introverted demeanors and the music could help carry them. Or maybe that would be too on the nose for Pyeongchang.

OMG!!! the rest of the world just haven't seen how the korean entertainment industry churns out well-thought out soundtracks for most of their tv shows--and that's a hundred of shows per year. from the musical scoring to the theme songs that really magnify the emotion in those shows. there are tons that i like from kdramas, but here are a few that i have on my youtube playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0uHQtJUKqk&index=22&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uCmKXVOaM&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VuMc_K4Tis&index=29&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmKbkPbG9E&index=32&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1k9FiEeZP8&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=89 (this is the full OST to the show)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hYQcsR_5-4&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=90 (some of the scoring to the show; i think this is the first kdrama i watched where the music caught my attention; i'm such a big sucker for OSTs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbSSpKfSp-8&index=91&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

 

[VGThuy]

OMG!!! the rest of the world just haven't seen how the korean entertainment industry churns out well-thought out soundtracks for most of their tv shows--and that's a hundred of shows per year. from the musical scoring to the theme songs that really magnify the emotion in those shows. there are tons that i like from kdramas, but here are a few that i have on my youtube playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0uHQtJUKqk&index=22&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uCmKXVOaM&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VuMc_K4Tis&index=29&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmKbkPbG9E&index=32&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1k9FiEeZP8&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=89 (this is the full OST to the show)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hYQcsR_5-4&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi&index=90 (some of the scoring to the show; i think this is the first kdrama i watched where the music caught my attention; i'm such a big sucker for OSTs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbSSpKfSp-8&index=91&list=PLbaEsb27LpcKRUm_Zcwtv738LFevH-OVi

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm going to add these to my music playlists.

 

[zilam98]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm going to add these to my music playlists.

by any chance, have you watched any of those shows?

 

[zilam98]

Not so sure it's all about P/C and V/M slugging it out. While P/C have been highly scored, V/M have beaten them twice, decisively and handily (as they should have, because they are by far the better ice dance team and better skaters). I have read that P/C made the jump from down low in the standings to WC because Gadbois figured out how to package them. It's an extraordinary package to get judges to notice world championship skating that was somehow invisible to them the year before. So, frankly, I think other considerations went into it apart from the skating. I think P/C are static. They do a set "set" of things effectively, that that is it, effectively enough to allow the sport to have overlooked marked weaknesses in the past couple of years, and I don't think P/C will be a sure #2. I think the Shibs can overtake them. The primary thing the Shibs need to do, IMO, is to skate with as much abandon as they can, as much "attack" as they can, always keeping the integrity of their choreography and the "style" that's appropriate to a given program. Because when they skate all out, it is difficult to deny that their TES is better.

you know, if you were to post this in a p/c thread, you'd be called a troll i've brought up before how repetitive p/c are. they certainly do things really well, but it's because they've done the same things over and over again. but apparently, they're the only true ice dancers despite repeating the same contemporary lyrical themes and even the same elements year after year.

 

[Spun Silver]

I listened to some of the K-drama links above. To me, they are pleasant but sound kind of generic (like most soundtracks). They would definitely make fine skating programs but IMO unless there is one that really stands out they would be a step backward for the Shibs. Better for a junior team IMO. IMO the Shibs want to be using the best composers.

What about Ravel's Tzigane? People are always criticizing Maia for being too reserved. This would let her release her inner gypsy. Balanchine treated it like a courtship ritual but I think it could be interpreted as more like "gypsy family music," hehe. The music becomes more dancy with the entry of the piano and then the man at about 4:30 and 5:00. It would take a heck of an editing job but then the Shibs seem to have the ability and resources to do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dn3_ReGPyM

 

[Shyjosie]

I am not worried about the rumba for the Shibs. IMO they are the best brother/sister dance team ever. In the past, I believe teams and coaches have overthought and therefore exaggerated the "problem" with brother/sister teams, and took a strange approach. The Kerrs, IMO, either ignored they were siblings and squicked people out, or they did somewhat gimmicky programs. If one is skating in tandem there are many relationships other than romantic relationships. A sibling relationship is a strong one. A family relationship is a strong one. I liked the idea of

I like your thoughts on the brother-sister-relationship. You are right, in the past the alleged "problem" had been exaggerated - maybe it bacame a problem just by adressing it as something questonable.
I think, and this is especially true for the Shibs, they are as strong as they are and as capable not in spite of being brother and sister, but because they are brother and sister. In a way, this was also true for the Kerrs and for sure for the Duchesnays. Brother-sister-teams have a long history in figure skating which the Shibs can take to a new height.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's telling that the most celebrated Duchesnay program was "Missing". It was still concept-driven and full of Christopher Dean choreography where Isabelle was used as a prop, but we got to see real authentic passion. In a way, it was the program that allowed the Duchesnays to show themselves more than their other ones, although I'm sure their more concept-heavy programs were also them being themselves.

When the Shibs were going their their regression and stagnation, I remember people on the forums thinking they needed to be more like the Duchesnays and have more passion and abandon. Some others (or the same) thought they needed to take a page out of the Kerrs book and embrace some of the more quirky routines. In retrospect, I think that was less to do with people wanting the Shibs to conform to a style most wecre used to seeing from brother/sister teams and more to do with them just thinking the Shibs needed to do something to get that spark back and saw the frustration Marina and Canton were having in giving the Shibs programs that worked for them outside the ballroom style that seemed to have become a crutch and maybe a showing of lack of imagination on Zoueva's part.

I do think their slow rise after their World bronze medal is probably something Alex and Maia had to go through in order to have that breakthrough that they had last season. They often-credit all of their past collaborators and programs for helping them grow and evolve to the team they are now. I do think they need to skate with more "trust" in their practice and in their technique because as much as I do love their more introverted style (I think it is distinct from most ice dance teams) that control can some times be too much. It's sort of like Natalie Portman's character in Black Swan. They need to just let it go because I'd love to see them skate with full-out attack. We've seen snippets of it (like during their NHK encore of "Fix You" where they picked up from after the rotational lift to the final footwork sequence) and I found it so compelling. I understand why they skate with so much control because they've lost to similarly-ranked teams in the lower top ten in the past due to loss of levels and they want to not give the callers/judges reasons to mark them down again especially now that they're back in the fold, but I think they need to also show that they are skilled and can skate with more abandon and maintain those levels. It's not as if they haven't lost levels with so much control either.

I do think @Subway hit the nail on the head as to Maia/Alex skating differently from other brother/sister teams in the past because their programs are now showing off themselves rather than be concept-heavy or character-driven. I think it's because they are so technically-skilled and have such a palatable authentic connection that doesn't creep people out that they do not have to rely so much on "gimmicks" to sell people on a brother/sister team. I suspect the Shibs were also models for the Parsons who just let their skating skills, speed, deep edges, closed holds, and easy changes of holds do the talking. They also don't seem to be bogged down with having to find the right material...at least not yet as they are still juniors.

by any chance, have you watched any of those shows?

I've actually haven't seen any of those shows. I just started watching Korean/Taiwanese dramas thanks to my fiance who was into them when he was in high school and college. I'm more into ones with contemporary settings.

 

[clairecloutier]

What about Ravel's Tzigane? People are always criticizing Maia for being too reserved. This would let her release her inner gypsy. Balanchine treated it like a courtship ritual but I think it could be interpreted as more like "gypsy family music," hehe. The music becomes more dancy with the entry of the piano and then the man at about 4:30 and 5:00. It would take a heck of an editing job but then the Shibs seem to have the ability and resources to do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dn3_ReGPyM

Good music. I like this idea. The dramatic quality of the music makes me think of the Shibs' Paso Doble SD, which was one of my favorite SDs from them.

 

[VGThuy]

I listened to some of the K-drama links above. To me, they are pleasant but sound kind of generic (like most soundtracks). They would definitely make fine skating programs but IMO unless there is one that really stands out they would be a step backward for the Shibs. Better for a junior team IMO. IMO the Shibs want to be using the best composers.

What about Ravel's Tzigane? People are always criticizing Maia for being too reserved. This would let her release her inner gypsy. Balanchine treated it like a courtship ritual but I think it could be interpreted as more like "gypsy family music," hehe. The music becomes more dancy with the entry of the piano and then the man at about 4:30 and 5:00. It would take a heck of an editing job but then the Shibs seem to have the ability and resources to do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dn3_ReGPyM

That's really great music (I mean how can it not be with Ravel). The Shibs aren't "dramatic" skaters so I wonder what they can do with this. I also wonder if their Olympic program should be real showcases of themselves rather than something more character-driven.

 

[Spun Silver]

That's really great music (I mean how can it not be with Ravel). The Shibs aren't "dramatic" skaters so I wonder what they can do with this. I also wonder if their Olympic program should be real showcases of themselves rather than something more character-driven.

Ha, I anticipated that comment. It's interesting that neither Farrell nor Martins was really considered a dramatic dancer before this piece. There was a bit of precedent but nothing like that Farrell was mainly the remote ideal woman and Martins was the flawless danseur noble (except the time he missed his stool in Apollo and sat down on the floor, lol). Balanchine sometimes liked making dancers do what was hard for them to make them grow.

But yeah, it has to be not just what the Shibs feel suits them as a team, but what they think is the right Olympic season vehicle for them. This could be too close to the Latin SD... but not if they use one of the upbeat, happy ones you suggested.

 

[Subway]

Maia may not have an inner gypsy. She definitely has confidence and power though. I think they should look for a piece that makes the biggest virtue possible out of what they already do so well, as Coldplay did.

 

[VGThuy]

Maia gives a vibe of a late 90s-era lyrical skater to me at times rather than an ice dancer. I think they need a vehicle that will help her showcase her inner-Kwan and at the same time make use of Alex's natural exuberance.

 

[Spun Silver]

Maia may not have an inner gypsy. She definitely has confidence and power though. I think they should look for a piece that makes the biggest virtue possible out of what they already do so well, as Coldplay did.

You could be right, but look at her choice of thumbnail portrait on Twitter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maiashibutani

I think both she and Alex are belatedly coming into their own sexiness. They were adorable Wunderkinds for so long, and then there was a long transition period when they were trying this and that but still looking very young... and then Fix You. I wouldnt bet against their both having inner gypsies.

I also remember how long it took Meryl and Charlie to learn to emote together, in the absence of real sexual chemistry. They finally realized it was just acting and learned how to do it. It helped lift them to the top. I dont see why Maia and Alex cant do the same in the sense of acting parts that are not identical with their souls... just not romantic roles.

 

[Subway]

Maia gives a vibe of a late 90s-era lyrical skater to me at times rather than an ice dancer. I think they need a vehicle that will help her showcase her inner-Kwan and at the same time make use of Alex's natural exuberance.

Maia definitely seems to have an inner Kwan, and it plays well with Alex's "natural exuberance." (perfectly said )

I also agree with SpunSilver that they're maturing and coming into their own sexiness. My point, I guess, is that sexiness doesn't have to equal "fiery" - which is how figure skating often sees it, sultry, nor does it have to be kittenish. I'm not the biggest Yuna Kim fan there is, but the James Bond program was sexy, and something like that would be even more so with Maia/Alex. I'm not against fiery and all the other traditionally sexy forms of expression, but I wouldn't want it imposed upon them.

 

[chapis]

Someone know where can I watch their olympic FD?

 

[aftershocks]

And Maia has a cameo appearance in online personality Jake Paul's video:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOFYh_IBw-v/

ETA:
Maybe Maia and Alex should channel their Wu-Tang Clan name generator aliases and go for a Bonnie & Clyde type killer program? Hmmm...

Maia may not have an inner gypsy. She definitely has confidence and power though...

Well, Maia's Wu-Tang alias is Quiet Assassin


@VIETgrlTerifa, I don't think Maia has an 'inner Kwan.' She has her own swan-like inner Maia diva. Contrary to expectations, swans are subtly ferocious. All is calm on the surface, while underneath the smooth water, their feet are always in aggressive motion.

Someone know where can I watch their olympic FD?

Here's their 2014 Nationals FD on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH5yyq9_Gys

And you will find the Shibs' 2014 Olympic performance within this ice dance final group video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SryaPox_I6o

 

[Subway]

ETA:
Maybe Maia and Alex should channel their Wu-Tang Clan name generator aliases and go for a Bonnie & Clyde type killer program? Hmmm...



Well, Maia's Wu-Tang alias is Quiet Assassin


@VIETgrlTerifa, I don't think Maia has an 'inner Kwan.' She has her own swan-like inner Maia diva. Contrary to expectations, swans are subtly ferocious. All is calm on the surface, while underneath the smooth water, their feet are always in aggressive motion.

You are not kidding. I live across the street from a park, directly from the lake, that has a lot of waterfowl, including swans. Swans don't kid around. These swans are the royalty of the lake, and most people/dogs understand this, and if anyone doesn't, watch out. My little dog tends to look for trouble, and will struggle with me because she wants to get to the water's edge and eyeball a swan. Meantime the swan glides sideways - you never see his/her feet - to gaze directly at my doggie. Whereupon I yank my doggie out of harm's way. I don't think the swan intends harm to my dog. It's more like - hey you - person! Perhaps you would like to let your dog know a few facts. The message is always unmistakeable. Look in the eye and body language of a swan, and understand they're not messing around.

 

[chapis]

Here's their 2014 Nationals FD on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH5yyq9_Gys

And you will find the Shibs' 2014 Olympic performance within this ice dance final group video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SryaPox_I6o

thanks, I was thinking about my sister and I remembered this program because she does not like ice dance but she loved this program. They were great though nationals was better.

 

[aftershocks]

Yep @Subway, I found that out one time when I was visiting a farm in Tennessee with a lake where there was a majestic swan who came out of the water. From a distance, I was cooing Ooohs and Aaahs. My host warned me to keep my distance, as swans are very aggressive. I refused to believe it, until the swan looked up, saw us and began to charge while flapping it's wings. Take that invader humans with the nerve to disturb Swan's quietude. We kept our distance and sidled away promptly

 

[DDNatalia]

Maia and Alex have been nominated for the US Olympic Team of the Month Award!

http://awards.teamusa.org
https://www.instagram.com/p/BO2LXI4gE91/?taken-by=shibsibs

 

[VGThuy]

ETA:
Maybe Maia and Alex should channel their Wu-Tang Clan name generator aliases and go for a Bonnie & Clyde type killer program? Hmmm...

Well, Maia's Wu-Tang alias is Quiet Assassin

@VIETgrlTerifa, I don't think Maia has an 'inner Kwan.' She has her own swan-like inner Maia diva. Contrary to expectations, swans are subtly ferocious. All is calm on the surface, while underneath the smooth water, their feet are always in aggressive motion.

I think you're right.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOyKreaBkRp/?taken-by=maiashibutani

It's always the ones that surprise you who are the most ferocious, isn't it?