Spun Silver
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,130
Yeah, but both Hongbo and Xian retired at 35, right? There's no precedent for hoping Hao can perform at an OGM level until 38-40-40+.
Articles confirming new Chinese pairs Yu/Zhang and Peng/Jin
- Thread starter Sylvia
- Start date
barbarafan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,311
Thank-you for the link. I just watched it twice...They are certainly so special..Yes it is sad that he seems to have gone over to the dark side.
Japanfan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 25,607
Nothing seemed amiss to me in this video. The people who came to help Peng were probably on hand to do so. The Chinese team may not have brought their own medical team along. This is certainly not the first time that a skater from one country be treated by a medical team from another. I don't think a medical team from the country of every skater is a competition is required to attend that event, but rather, that there needs a be a medical team present.
As to Zhang laughing - well, Peng was clearly not seriously injured.
barbarafan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,311
as to the laughing ....head...ice...concussion...every time a head hits the ice it is serious.....the point of this clip was...the difference between how Peng was treated 6 months ago as opposed to how she was treated end April and May...ie 6 months ago not bad...at worlds..disgusting.
MR-FAN
Kostner Softie
- Messages
- 6,636
I kinda get it. On the one hand he wants to be the heir apparent to Yao Bin and ensure a comfy career. And on the other he knows if no promising team emerge, his fed will bring him and Shen out of retirement to win another gold in 2022
Yukari Lepisto
Active Member
- Messages
- 715
So everyone seems to be disappointed in Zhao Hongbo, but what do people really expect him to do in this case? Quit the coaching position immediately if he doesn't like the idea of switching partners? Or go completely against Yao Bin, and the power of the chinese federation, and blast them in the media and come clean of the whole switching thing if he doesn't like the idea? - is this even possible? He's in China, a communist country, not a Western country. Hongbo is nothing more than the person actually doing all the hard work and ugly work (like have to talk to the skaters about the switch, face the media, and the fans are now all pointing at him), but with no actual real power. I'm really upset at the switching of partners, and understand why the fans are upset at Hongbo because the fans think the head coach should have all the power, but really not.... There's really nothing he can do except quitting the job, but if he really does quit the job, what's next for him? it's not realistic.
The switch has happened already.. so I'm just gonna sit back and see how they skate together when the season starts...
The switch has happened already.. so I'm just gonna sit back and see how they skate together when the season starts...
jlai
Question everything
- Messages
- 14,449
How do we really know he has zero power to change the outcome and is just the one with the dirty work?
The fact is no one knows. Any one's guess is as good as another's.
The fact is no one knows. Any one's guess is as good as another's.
skateboy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 8,515
I have to chuckle at Hao Zhang's age in this thread going from 31, to 34, to 40...
The only thing I'll say is that I first saw him live at SA in 2005. He was a big guy that looked like a baby. No way he was 29 at the time. 23 maybe, but I thought he looked even younger than that.
The only thing I'll say is that I first saw him live at SA in 2005. He was a big guy that looked like a baby. No way he was 29 at the time. 23 maybe, but I thought he looked even younger than that.
hanca
Values her privacy
- Messages
- 12,549
I think some posters are talking about his current real age, or his current 'official' age, then his age at the nearest Olympics and his age at the Olympics in China (that he says he is aiming for). So that's why there is so many ages floating around.
feraina
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 2,400
Now that the new pairs are a reality, I wonder how it will all turn out. The first season will probably be quite tough, as they all need time to get used to each other. Yu & Peng are similar in size, but Jin & Zhang are very different, so it will be quite a lot to adapt for both pairs. Even V/T had so many problems in their first competitive season. So forget the first season, and let's think about a couple years down the line.
The throw jumps Yu has trouble landing in the clips are all doubles. The twist was high but her rotation in the air was quite slow and barely got around 3 revs, much slower than Peng's rotation in the clip of P/Z's 4tw also included in the video. Also, compared to Peng, Yu is more introverted. Peng has almost single-handedly made P/Z's programs interesting (in a way that Z/Z's never were), whereas Yu seems to struggle with connecting with the audience. Sure P/Z are a very new team, but these weaknesses Yu also had with Jin, except he was good at being the protective knight to her delicate princess image, and Y/J also had plenty of time on their side to work on technical elements and expression, etc. On the other hand, with Zhang Hao...
Really, the only advantage of Yu over Peng is her SBS jumps. Aside from that, you'd think teaming Peng and Zhang together would be the much wiser choice. Yu's jumps haven't even been that consistent this season, and were not consistent beyond the last couple of seasons. As a junior, she was not much of a jumper at all. Whereas Peng was actually quite a good jumper before teaming up with Zhang; her good 3t and 3S were actually the primary stated reason why she was chosen for Zhang.
Zhao went straight from being a competitor and performer to being a coach. I wonder if this decision is just exposing his inexperience. Or maybe lack of confidence. Maybe he lacks confidence that he can ever improve Peng's jumps with Zhang? Or that he can help Yu/Jin get better skating skills or more difficult technical content? P/Z were just 4th in the world last year, and had P/T not come back, they would've even medalled at the WC. Not bad for a 3-year-old team in which the girl was so young and inexperienced. Peng had never even competed in the JGP, or done well in domestic competitions. Could he just be overly focused on the difficulties he couldn't overcome (Peng not landing her jumps, Y/J not being able to add a quad twist or quad throw), instead of giving himself the credit for all the amazing things he did accomplish (making all four teams much, much more polished and achieving PCS gains that were truly impressive)? It must be difficult for such a determined and successful person as Zhao (who not only won an OGM at an advanced age, but doing so after coming back from a very tough injury in record time) to be so stomped as a coach. Maybe he's explaining away his inability to get P/Z and Y/J to have technical breakthroughs in terms of the athletes' own fundamental limitations (as opposed to his coaching shortcomings, or the fact that some things just take time, or that certain recurrent difficulties could be due to psychological factors like Peng's jumps). So now he's decided that by combining Yu/Zhang, he would have at least one team that has both reliable SBS's and quad twist/throw.
It'll be interesting to see what skating together with Zhang will do to Yu's jumps. I want the best for her. But I'm curious to see what kind of programs Y/Z will manage to put together this season and next. I just can't imagine them doing better than P/Z or Y/J.
On the other hand, Peng/Jin could conceivably do rather well together, if they have the proper motivations and CSA gives them sufficient opportunities. Psychologically, it could become much easier for Peng to land her jumps. And in terms of the twist/throw elements, Peng is actually shorter and more compactly built than Yu (Wikipedia says Peng is 5'2 while Yu is 5'4), so they might get better GOE than Y/J did, and maybe even get quads. Peng's greater extroversion and better connection with the audience should help them too.
Also, this might all be quite the lucky break for W/W. It looked like they were doomed to never get to any major comp until Zhang Hao retired, and Wang Lei himself is almost 28 (in July). But they got to go to WC this year, and might get to go to WC again next year if the new teams don't immediately gel (highly likely) or S/H don't recover quickly enough. China is lucky that they have a fourth team to at least ensure two spots, along with Sui/Han, in case the partner-swapping experiment turns out to be a terrible mistake. If W/W had skated up to their normal ability at the WC, I believe they could've placed top 10, or even top 8.
Japanfan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 25,607
It is potentially serious, not necessarily serious. Plenty of heads hit the ice in figure skating, and not only the heads of pair skaters. I by no means intend to minimize the severity of a head injury, but there would be a lot more of them if they occurred every single time a skater's head hit the ice. In which case, they should perhaps be wearing helmets.
blue_idealist
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 2,641
I wonder if things don't work out next season, they might switch them back...
Japanfan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 25,607
barbarafan said:
For example, if Hao Zhang is such an arrogant and egocentric, it follows that he would have been concerned about the possibility that his partner might have injured her head. Not because he cared about her, but because any injury that took her off the ice could rob him of the glory that is his due.
Alternatively, he might have blamed the fall on her and been really angry about it.
Neither situation would result in laughter.
I'm not saying that Peng isn't being treated poorly by the federation and/or Zhang, but don't have enough evidence to draw that conclusion, particularly in the case of Zhang.
I am finding the
mentality of this thread very disturbing. There are too many possibilities, facts and angles to take into account before drawing firm conclusions.
Last edited:
clairecloutier
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 14,685
@feraina Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your analysis of the 2 new teams and what the future may hold for them. I agree on most points. I was particularly interested in your opinions of Peng and Yu in terms of artistry and performance quality.
It's hard for me to look at this objectively, because honestly, Cheng Peng is one of my favorite pairs skaters. I think she's a star, and I find something quite special in her skating. There's a musicality and flair. At times, it gets a little buried when things aren't going well technically. But when she's on, Cheng takes choreography and makes it interesting, makes you want to watch. I agree that she almost singlehandedly made the team of Peng/Zhang interesting artistically (in a way that Zhang/Zhang never were, in all their years together). Unfortunately, I feel Cheng has never gotten enough credit for her talent and what she brought artistically. Because, although some of us liked P/Z, I feel the majority of fans were so turned off by their age difference that they just dismissed them. (And Cheng as a performer, because she was part of the disliked team.) And as for the federation, it seems evident their focus was on whether Cheng was hitting her jumps, rather than any artistic talent. (And this is perhaps not really a surprise. Because when you consider that Zhang/Zhang achieved quite great success without ever really developing an artistic personality, I'm sure that as far as the Chinese authorities are concerned, who needs artistry when you have "Big China"?) Anyhow, this is a long way of saying that I think Cheng Peng is very talented artistically. I find the contrast between her on-ice/off-ice personas fascinating. Off ice, she seems rather quiet and meek. On ice, she's a surprisingly commanding presence, with fire in her eyes at times. Your observations about P/Z suggest that Cheng has the potential for star-like quality in any pairing, because it's her spark, her fire, that makes her interesting. And I agree with this. So in that sense, I look forward to seeing Peng/Jin together (however unhappy I am about the overall situation).
Xiaoyu is different. Her on-ice/off-ice personas seem more similar--both reserved, lovely, enigmatic. So far, I've not seen that kind of transformative quality in her that I feel Cheng has. This may be due in large part to the types of programs Yu/Jin were skating these last 2 years. But it seemed like what made Yu/Jin special was their chemistry together, as a team. It's really hard to imagine Xiaoyu having that kind of chemistry with Zhang. So if Yu/Zhang are going to make any impression artistically next year, I think it will depend on how much of Xiaoyu's inner diva/star comes out. We won't know until we see them next fall.
skateboy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 8,515
I'm not saying that Peng isn't being treated poorly by the federation and/or Zhang, but don't have enough evidence to draw that conclusion, particularly in the case of Zhang.
I am finding the
I agree with you completely. People are very quick to lynch Zhang, I guess because they never liked him in the first place. There's no evidence that he's the ogre that fans are making him out to be and, for that matter, he may be a completely innocent party in this whole scenario.
mag
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,198
Zhang's comments about his previous partner (Zhang) having trouble keeping her weight down is not a statement that comes from a completely innocent party. That statement alone show a distinct lack of respect for his partner,not to mention a questionable grip on reality! I also find it extremely hard to believe that if he stood up for his current partner and insisted that they would continue to work together and improve, that the switch would have happened. You don't even need to read the interviews carefully to see that this was all about what was best for Zhang.
Japanfan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 25,607
But keeping weight down is an issue for all pairs girls. Megan Duhamel herself said that was one of the benefits of being a vegan.
IIRC, Dan Zhang's weight gain was related to her height. She was always a very thin girl.
That said, I really dislike what I've heard about the Chinese federation in terms of how they try and control lady pair skaters' weight. They get weighed regularly, and in the book "The Second Mark", Zhue Shen commented that ladies were punished if they gained more than two pounds, and the punishment was having to eat in the coaches dining room - where ostensibly every calorie a skater consumes would be observed and scrutinized. Horrible! It happened to Zhue Shen because she drank two diet cokes that pushed her weight up shortly before weigh-in, on a rare day when her parents had come to visit her at the school.
IMO male pairs skaters should focus on weight/strength training no less than their partner's focus on weight - as well as training and strength. And their strength should be considered no less than their partner's weight.
Hao Zhang looks like he spends plenty of time at the gym. I grant the his build is probably partly thanks to genetics - but not totally.
He looks much more muscled-up than a lot of male pair skaters.
skateboy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 8,515
The problem with Zhang/Zhang was that she grew too tall and, as a result, there was a substantial weight gain. Hao was getting hurt as a result of lifting her... in fact, they missed much of a season because of it.
Peng/Zhang just weren't working, they were only getting worse. No reason for them to stay together. It's pairs, it happens. I'm interested to see Peng/Jin, as I think they could be an interesting pair.
Does anybody really believe that the powers-that-be of the Chinese FS Federation give two craps about ANY of the individual skater's feelings, including Hao Zhang's? I don't. I believe they are concerned with only one thing: improving and winning. If they didn't think Zhang could help improve their situation, I'm sure they would drop him like a hot potato. Time will tell, whether or not their strategy will work.
mag
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,198
Zhang Dan may have been tall for a pairs girl, but to suggest she ever had "substantial weight gain" is so crazy it is mind blowing. She was a skeleton. The only way she could have lost weight is through amputation. If Zhang Hao was injured while lifting her the blame lies squarely with him. By the way, Zhang Dan is around 5'4". So it is not like she is a giant.
kwanfan1818
RIP D-10
- Messages
- 39,947
And the fact that ^this was obvious and out of her control, yet he continued to describe her as "overweight" instead of having outgrown him, speaks volumes to me.
She had her growth spurt after a stint in the hospital, where they apparently refused to starve her for the national good.
Last edited:
barbarafan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,311
True and then they will probably find him a 10 yr old, call her 15 and hand her over.
Xela M
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 4,827
I can't understand how people who have seen how Zhang treats his partners (at huge international competitions- in full view of the whole world) can suggest that this thread is a witch hunt against him 
If we have seen awful treatment of his partners at international events, I shudder to think what goes on behind closed doors
If we have seen awful treatment of his partners at international events, I shudder to think what goes on behind closed doors
strawberryicesk8
New Member
- Messages
- 3
It also all depends on what a coach/ and said male partner have an ideal in weight. For example, I'm sure that the Chinese are at least 5 lbs less than Duhamel and their western counterparts. And they have a ideal weight in their mindset that is lower than other pairs girls around the world. Someone in China could be "Overweight" at anything over 90lbs.....but somewhere in Canada or the States, a skater is only considered as heavier at lets say 105 lbs.
mag
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,198
You may be right. When I first searched I found 5'4" but it looks like she may have been 5'7" by the end of her career. She was still super skinny and probably weighed less than some other shorter pairs girls. Her weight was definitely NOT the issue.
I think part of the issue is that Zhang Hao thinks he is 183cm (6ft) yet this photo shows that Tong Jian, who is listed at 179cm (just over 5'8") is clearly taller. I question the accuracy of Zhang Hao given height. If he is really only 5'7 or 5'8" it is possible Dan was was not as tall as reported by the Chinese Fed.
https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl...uTMAhVE_IMKHYkMD-0QMwh3KFIwUg&iact=mrc&uact=8
ginsengtea
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 243
But 179 cm is just shy of 5'11". I think you might've gotten a bit mixed up there.
feraina
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 2,400
There's another article (in Legal Evening News) that just came out with quotes from Zhang.
http://sports.sina.cn/others/winter/2016-05-17/detail-ifxsenvn7250091.d.html?from=wap
It's a very specialized newspaper (not sure why this newspaper would care but maybe Zhang has 'guanxi' with the editor or something) that also interviewed Zhang two years ago after P/Z won CoC. It sounds like his fan letters rather than really objective reporting. But anyway, among other things, the latest says P/Z are the focus of Zhao Hongbo in training. Zhang talks more about he plans to do his best for the 2022 Olympics. The article doesn't give any reason why Zhang wants to skate with Yu, but makes it sound like she has many shortcomings (eg not as fast) and is super lucky to be working with such a famous and successful skater. No mention of Peng/Jin whatsoever, and no mention of anything Yu/Jin achieved together. It's like she's so lucky to have been plucked from obscurity to skate with Zhang.
In the article from 2014, Zhang said their CoC win (their first title) proved that his decision to change partners was correct.
http://m.sohu.com/n/405943580/?_trans_=000115_3w
It's pretty clear to me that he has a lot of power in the Chinese team. He never talks about trying to qualify for the WC or Olympics -- it's always a given. And he talks about the partner changes as his idea (not so much the current one but definitely the previous one).
Last edited:
mag
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,198
Yes, you are correct. I forgot to convert the .87 of a foot. So to be exact, Tong is stated to be 5'10 1/2". That still puts Zhang well below his stated 6 feet. Certainly not more than 5'9 1/2"
My point is that it certainly seems reasonable to conclude that Zhang is lying about his height (he isn't the first pairs guy to do that and he won't be the last.) What bugs me is bs around Zhang Dan. Yes, she was tall for a pairs girl, but she wasn't a giant, and probably wasn't 5'7". It is just more of the same crap that Zhang Hao would be an OGM if he only had a competent partner and he would never get hurt except that his inconsiderate partner ate too much and got too heavy.
Zhang's demonstrations that he believes that this is all about him and how he is the be all and end all of Chinese pairs skating is just a bit much to take.
wickedwitch
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 15,994
But Yu/Jin were working. No reason for them to break up -- except to get a partner for Zhang.
C
casken
Guest
Gross. Gross. Gross.
Sounds like they know they can't fool fans anymore, so they're starting early to create this narrative with the general Chinese public who will be watching the Olympics.