Was Maria 2 (or 1) triple salchow at the 2000 worlds from having way better 2001-2002

[joubertelegant]

I don't know. Doubled Salchow attempts in both programs, QR the triple Salchow had little runout and a hand down on the Axel, and the LP had the poor attempt at the triple Salchow. Her technical marks in the QR were extremely low considering what she put out, but she did skate 2nd in the group.

By 2000, I'm pretty sure the ISU had already established the 'well-balanced' long program guidelines and Maria didn't really have an entire footwork sequence or spiral sequence. That could've also been a factor for some judges, even though Slutskaya really just casually went through most of her non-jump elements (including very minimal revolutions on spins--- only 3 revs on the flying camel!).

We discussed most of this in the retrospective thread, but looking back I'd have no issue with putting Slutskaya a very obvious 4th in the long program. I think it's a real toss-up between Maria and Vanessa for 2nd.

I think with the performances they gave Irina 2nd was right. She had 2 triple lutzes, 6 triples, and several good triple-double combinations. With the botched sequence Maria didn't even have a combination of any sort, only 1 triple lutz, and only 5 triples. Irina was overscored, I cant believe she nearly won over Kwan with that skate which shows if she even did just a triple toe for a 7th triple or had done 6 triples regularly without rearranging she probably wins over Kwan's skate with 7 triples, a triple-triple, and much better artistry, which is a joke, but that is another topic I guess. Still 2nd in the LP was probably fine.

Vanessa's skate was nice but her technique on jumps and spins in general is not as strong as Irina's, one of her lutzes was two footed, and she is sloppy and not a polished skater like Kwan or Maria either, even if her Legends of the Fall was very musical and passionate.

 

[tony]

Vanessa's skate was nice but her technique on jumps and spins in general is not as strong as Irina's, one of her lutzes was two footed, and she is sloppy and not a polished skater like Kwan or Maria either, even if her Legends of the Fall was very musical and passionate.

Vanessa's footwork sequence was better (Irina's started about 1/3 of the way down the rink and she looked off-balance), and her spins were better than what Slutskaya showed that day. Irina: Flying camel - 3 revolutions, layback - 6 revolutions, slow, travelled, and not a good position. Her combo spins were fine.
They both telegraphed their jumps. Slutskaya's big double Salchow was telegraphed for 5+ seconds, second Lutz same thing, and about 7 seconds before the flip. Gusmeroli threw away her spiral sequence as much as Slutskaya did, but she did have a nice Ina Bauer and the program was much more cohesive and following the music than Irina who really stopped everything every time a jump was coming.

I was totally on the Irina bandwagon at the time but her content was really shockingly bad here.

 

[joubertelegant]

Vanessa's footwork sequence was better (Irina's started about 1/3 of the way down the rink and she looked off-balance), and her spins were better than what Slutskaya showed that day. Irina: Flying camel - 3 revolutions, layback - 6 revolutions, slow, travelled, and not a good position. Her combo spins were fine.
They both telegraphed their jumps. Slutskaya's big double Salchow was telegraphed for 5+ seconds, second Lutz same thing, and about 7 seconds before the flip. Gusmeroli threw away her spiral sequence as much as Slutskaya did, but she did have a nice Ina Bauer and the program was much more cohesive and following the music than Irina who really stopped everything every time a jump was coming.

I was totally on the Irina bandwagon at the time but her content was really shockingly bad here.

Fair points. Still if we are being real, even without politics or favortism, Vanessa's rep at that point was way behind all of Michelle, Irina, and Maria. She would have had to clearly outskate any of those 3 to be placed above in any program, which even if there is an argument for her being 2nd or 3rd in the LP she didnt. Particularly being in France, the judges if anything would probably be scared of being accuse of home town bias, and they had already given out the big win (dance) and desired other medal (pairs) to France, even if both were much deserved.

Irina's spins are much stronger than Vanessa's too, despite her innovative spins at the end. Despite the criticsm of Maria's jump landings in general the jumps she did land cleanly were landed much more securely and controlled than the jumps Vanessa landed cleanly (she is also known for the whippy and spun free leg on her landings, just not as talked about as much as Maria as she is a less prominent contender/skater).

 

[tony]

Irina's spins are much stronger than Vanessa's too, despite her innovative spins at the end. Despite the criticsm of Maria's jump landings in general the jumps she did land cleanly were landed much more securely and controlled than the jumps Vanessa landed cleanly (she is also known for the whippy and spun free leg on her landings, just not as talked about as much as Maria as she is a less prominent contender/skater).

Butyrskaya's jump landings throughout this competition (well, 90% of them) and the Europeans LP were as secure as they'd ever been. And yes, Vanessa never had a solid running edge on any of her jumps. She was always curling the edge or swinging her leg around because of the tight landings. Either way, I don't think she was far enough behind Irina technically-- or at all when you consider Irina's lack of non-jump content to lose out to her in the LP. Because spins all at the end or not (which actually worked with the music), Vanessa had the better program presentation-wise IMO.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Her second season with Scene d'Amore was not as successful score-wise even when she was clean. In hindsight, she perhaps shouldn't have switched. She won 2000 Worlds short with a loop.

She wasnt clean often. She was clean at worlds but it wasnt really a good performance. She still had ordinals as high as 2nd for a shaky and bland skate with a lot of mediocre elements, and was a bit unlucky to be 5th since her ordinals ranged from 2nd to 7th while Angela who was 3rd had ordinals ranging from 3rd to 8th.

You look at the scores she got with a fall at the GPF the judges were obviously planning to place her 2nd over Kwan or even 1st of Irina if she had not fallen. The other two skated cleanly.

NHK she was clean and lost the short to Irina, but everyone lost the short program to a clean Irina during that period, and the NHK judging panel was the most corrupt and crooked of that whole season if you recall, as the disgraceful long program judging and final result proves.