Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[Karen-W]

Have there ever been public petitions to the ISU? This seems like a time when something big has to be done to show the ISU how disgusted the public is.

Oh, sweet summer child. You must have missed the 2002-03 protests and the efforts to replace the ISU with an entirely different/new international federation for figure skating.

This would also be a good time for the IOC to tell the ISU to clean house or be prepared to be from the Olympic movement.

Well, if you think Bach, who is doing everything but bend over to ensure there are some Russians competing in Paris, is gonna have the IOC tell the ISU to clean house over this, would you like to look at some Arizona oceanfront property I've got for sale?

 

[Karen-W]

Heroux finally got one of the 2022 Canadian team members to speak out... thank you, KMT!

https://twitter.com/Devin_Heroux/status/1756090367202451912?t=cBl-KlYjdXNueRIL4JzaBw&s=19

 

[airgelaal]

"We can't math"

The Canadian Olympic Committee's response

Maybe we should give them a calculator? Or abacus?

 

[overedge]

This would also be a good time for the IOC to tell the ISU to clean house or be prepared to be from the Olympic movement.

IIRC they were told that after 2002, which was part of the reason for the new judging code of points and the judges having access to video.

Yet here we are in 2024.

The IOC has cracked down on a couple of corrupt Olympic sports, like boxing, but skating is a much bigger target (and it earns a lot more revenue for the IOC than those sports).

 

[ignosk8er]

It's not random supplements. Many training centers have doctors who work with athletes to come up with a supplement plan for each of them. Many coaches do this as well. What goes on at Sambo isn't unique. At least the ethical centers/coaches aren't helping their athletes dope.


Whatever the active ingredient is. (My tube is in another room and I'm too lazy to go fetch it.)

My point is that even if you use it as a gel instead of orally, it still gets into your system -- just less than if you took it orally. NSAIDS are systemic.

As a kidney patient, I haven’t taken an oral NSAID in 15 years. But the Voltaren topical gel is approved and I use it occasionally with the blessings of my nephrologist.

As you note, it can’t be as systemic as the oral, for NSAIDS are hell on the renal system and my doc wouldn’t approve. But it’s possible the tests are sufficiently sensitive to detect the presence of the topical in the bloodstream. I’m curious about it because of the stress put on her kidneys with these types of oral drugs. Then again, we don’t know how much she took.

I have a neph appt next week. Will try to remember to ask the doc about. To settle down my own curiosity.

Oh, sweet summer child. You must have missed the 2002-03 protests and the efforts to replace the ISU with an entirely different/new international federation for figure skating.

Well, if you think Bach, who is doing everything but bend over to ensure there are some Russians competing in Paris, is gonna have the IOC tell the ISU to clean house over this, would you like to look at some Arizona oceanfront property I've got for sale?

I want to simultaneously and at this.

 

[Vagabond]

Oh, sweet summer child.

I had to look this one up to be sure, but I see that it is an archaism from the Victorian era. Still, if we are going down that road....

Well, if you think Bach, who is doing everything but bend over to ensure there are some Russians competing in Paris, is gonna have the IOC tell the ISU to clean house over this, would you like to look at some Arizona oceanfront property I've got for sale?

Oh, sweet summer child! The ocean will be at Arizona's doorstep very soon due to rising sea levels.

 

[coppertop1]

IIRC they were told that after 2002, which was part of the reason for the new judging code of points and the judges having access to video.

Yet here we are in 2024.

The IOC has cracked down on a couple of corrupt Olympic sports, like boxing, but skating is a much bigger target (and it earns a lot more revenue for the IOC than those sports).

This goes beyond judging and even figure skating. It's about clean sport and clean athletes.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Nothing about not reallocating these points materially affects any other country EXCEPT Canada. No other team would have made the FS instead of ROC, and no other placements would have changed.

I thought Georgia might have gotten the last place in the finals over China, but both would have been raised to 23 points with the same tiebreak, so the same results.

So secret that nobody can find it. Apparently, even the ISU can't find it. If they could, they'd be citing to it and linking to it. But, the document saying that Rule 353 does apply to the team event was found on the ISU website.

That was the difference between Skate Canada having to release Soucisse/Firus according the published rules and the "Oh, we have different ones we didn't tell anyone about" rules they tried to use to hold them a lot longer.

I'm glad it's the COC running with the ball on this one. They have much more financial clout.

 

[overedge]

This goes beyond judging and even figure skating. It's about clean sport and clean athletes.

It's the Olympics. Which unfortunately are all about money.

 

[skategal]

It's the Olympics. Which unfortunately are all about money.

Yes. I wish there was a way that the COC could hit the IOC where it hurts by threatening to pull the NHL players from the 2026 Olympics in protest.

I bet you would see movement on this case then.

 

[overedge]

Yes. I wish there was a way that the COC could hit the IOC where it hurts by threatening to pull the NHL players from the 2026 Olympics in protest.

I bet you would see movement on this case then.

Those bronze medals would be re-allocated so fast the Russians wouldn't even see them disappear

 

[Judy]

This is all very strange and weird.

 

[CantALoop]

This is all very strange and weird.

It makes me wistful for simpler times when the wildest speculation was if Weed Jesus DQ’ed the ROC

 

[MacMadame]

They made an emotional decision, not a logical one.

They made a political decision; there was nothing emotional about it

As you note, it can’t be as systemic as the oral, for NSAIDS are hell on the renal system and my doc wouldn’t approve. But it’s possible the tests are sufficiently sensitive to detect the presence of the topical in the bloodstream. I’m curious about it because of the stress put on her kidneys with these types of oral drugs. Then again, we don’t know how much she took.

We also don't know if she took the gel or the oral form. I think it's most likely it was the gel because putting gel on a sore muscle would cause a lot less interaction with the other stuff she was on even before you get to kidney and stomach issues.

IME the amount of supplements she was on is definitely on the high side for an elite athlete but not unheard of. What made me go was all the prescription drugs that have some pretty "interesting" side effects. That is definitely not normal except in training environments where doping is going on a la The Nike Oregon Project (NOP).

 

[Yuri]

Wait a minute. Can someone translate from ISU language into human English?

I made two posts above trying to explain it and got attacked as a mafia accountant for my troubles.

So the argument @Yuri tried to sell us

Their argument, btw, is a copout because they also imply they are going to rewrite the rules for the team event to prevent questions in the future.

Precisely. Whatever precedent the ISU sets in the Team Event decision must continue to be applied consistently. It is inherently unfair if disqualifying participants from one country impacts the RELATIVE placements of other countries and that's one reason why the ISU stopped using factored placements, as there were some extremely unfair outcomes when Speedy was in charge when one competitor/team would flip-flop the results of others AFTER they skated. The Olympics Team Event is comparable, except here you are removing a competitor after the fact. While intuitively the 2022 results make it appear logical to simply move everyone up, that's only true if the DQ'd participant happens to place 1st.

 

[Karen-W]

I made two posts above trying to explain it and got attacked as a mafia accountant for my troubles.

Precisely. Whatever precedent the ISU sets in the Team Event decision must continue to be applied consistently. It is inherently unfair if disqualifying participants from one country impacts the RELATIVE placements of other countries and that's one reason why the ISU stopped using factored placements, as there were some extremely unfair outcomes when Speedy was in charge when one competitor/team would flip-flop the results of others AFTER they skated. The Olympics Team Event is comparable, except here you are removing a competitor after the fact. While intuitively the 2022 results make it appear logical to simply move everyone up, that's only true if the DQ'd participant happens to place 1st.

They can change the rules for the future if they don’t like how the rules as written play out in whatever scenario presents itself, but that doesn't mean that it is correct to change the rules after the fact. That's why Canada SHOULD be awarded the bronze.

It is not a matter of what COULD happen in the future if the results turned out some other way that COULD adversely impact any other teams. The ISU is purposefully muddying the waters here (not at all unlike Russia during this entire saga) instead of following their own damn rules as currently written. Just because they have realized, in retrospect, that their rules COULD negatively affect other teams in other scenarios where the DSQed competitor does not finish 1st in both phases does not mean they can discard those rules and refuse to apply them to the 2022 Team Event.

They need to separate the two actions - 1) applying the rules in place at the time of the 2022 TE correctly (which gives Canada the bronze), and 2) change the TE rules so that this particular scenario of a post-event DSQ is clearly addressed (are the points are redistributed or not, or is the entire team is DSQ, etc).

The really sad thing is that a post-event DSQ is only likely if either Russiai dopes again or China tries fudging birth documents again.

 

[On My Own]

The really sad thing is that a post-event DSQ is only likely if either Russia doping again or China tries fudging birth documents again.

Really? I genuinely don't think they'll ever do it to Russia lol. I actually feel awful for those Chinese WAGs. Dong Fangxiao hardly had any control over who wrote what on her birth certificate.

 

[honey]

Perhaps in their re writing of the rules they could include a clause that specifies the whole team is disqualified if one member is busted for doping.

 

[Hedwig]

Perhaps in their re writing of the rules they could include a clause that specifies the whole team is disqualified if one member is busted for doping.

Amen to that.

We want clean sport and if that what it takes to get there- I am all in.
And keep DRussia out. Their doping history made a clown out of the Olympic movement long enough.

 

[skatingguy]

Perhaps in their re writing of the rules they could include a clause that specifies the whole team is disqualified if one member is busted for doping.

Amen to that.

We want clean sport and if that what it takes to get there- I am all in.
And keep DRussia out. Their doping history made a clown out of the Olympic movement long enough.

My understanding of the precedents in these cases under Swiss law is that a team is only disqualified if the sanctioned athlete had a direct impact on the performance of their teammates. So in a relay the whole team is disqualified because you can't remove one athlete without affecting the results of the other athletes, but in this case the other skaters were not affected by Valieva's sanctions, and therefore can maintain their results.

 

[honey]

My understanding of the precedents in these cases under Swiss law is that a team is only disqualified if the sanctioned athlete had a direct impact on the performance of their teammates. So in a relay the whole team is disqualified because you can't remove one athlete without affecting the results of the other athletes, but in this case the other skaters were not affected by Valieva's sanctions, and therefore can maintain their results.

Then what was the precedent used in disqualifying the entire Chinese gymnastics team in 2000? The two events are pretty comparable IMO. One gymnast’s performance on the vault doesn’t directly link to her teammates on floor or bars.

 

[Colonel Green]

Whatever precedent the ISU sets in the Team Event decision must continue to be applied consistently. It is inherently unfair if disqualifying participants from one country impacts the RELATIVE placements of other countries and that's one reason why the ISU stopped using factored placements, as there were some extremely unfair outcomes when Speedy was in charge when one competitor/team would flip-flop the results of others AFTER they skated.

Why is that unfair? That is, in fact, the fair result.

Don't get me wrong, it would suck for a team that lost out as a result of this, but they have no intrinsic right to benefit from somebody else cheating either.

And if you really don't want this to happen, then you shouldn't have a team event that uses this sort of scoring system.

 

[skatingguy]

Then what was the precedent used in disqualifying the entire Chinese gymnastics team in 2000? The two events are pretty comparable IMO. One gymnast’s performance on the vault doesn’t directly link to her teammates on floor or bars.

At that time the precedent didn't exist, and each sport was setting it's own rules for disqualifications of teams.

 

[coppertop1]

The mental gymnastics to defend a country that cheated and has a history of doping would make Simone Biles jealous.

ln most team sports, one athlete breaking the rules means the whole team is out. Why she figure skating be any different? Russia once again was caught doping. They should be disqualified and at this point, banned entirely.

I would suggest scrap the ISU but whoever should replace them?

 

[Judy]

Yes. I wish there was a way that the COC could hit the IOC where it hurts by threatening to pull the NHL players from the 2026 Olympics in protest.

I bet you would see movement on this case then.

The ISU could care less about hockey. The NHL is not going to do a protest lol.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Skategal wrote the IOC, not the ISU. The IOC certainly cares about hockey.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I wish western countries and whoever else wants it would band together and just completely boycott and withdraw from the ISU and they’re high level of corruption and form a new governing organization. Clear rules, clear guidelines, absolute zero tolerance for corrupted officials, judges, and skaters.

ANL will preside. All rise!!!!

 

[victorskid]

Scott Hamilton, 1984 Olympic champion (40 years ago!), was interviewed on February 5th by Global TV in Canada: https://globalnews.ca/video/10274881/russian-figure-skater-receives-ban-for-doping

 

[Alilou]

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/figure-skating/canadian-olympic-committee-appeal-russian-figure-skating-bronze-1.7111049

"We are looking at options right now and will publish our decision early next week," a Skate Canada spokesperson said in an email.

 

[overedge]

It is inherently unfair if disqualifying participants from one country impacts the RELATIVE placements of other countries

The RELATIVE placements in the team events are based on the total points earned by each team's members. They are not ordinal placements. If Team A's members earn 20 points and Team B's members earn 15 points, Team A is 1st and Team B is 2nd. And if someone on Team A earned 10 points and gets disqualified, and their points are removed, them Team B is 1st with 15 points and Team A is 2nd with 10 points.

I honestly don't know why you keep yammering on about ordinal scoring and placements, because they are completely irrelevant to this situation.