Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

If anyone has been penalized its athletes who weren't on the Russian squad for the Olympic Team Event (the Americans, the Japanese, the Canadians, Hendrickx, Tuktamysheva, Scherbakova, and Trusova, not that I feel especially sympathetic to the last one or two on that list).

I disagree.

Figure skating is not swimming, and doping is not some magic potion. Taking an illegal substance 2 months before a competition should absolutely be punished, but very unlikely affected the actual performance on the night. Making it sound as if the only reason why Valieva won was doping, or that other skaters didn't win because they didn't use doping, has nothing to do with how figure skating (or doping) work.

So she should absolutely get disqualified, but on the end of the day, everyone else lost and now get bumped up, while the Russian team won and gets bumped down.

I think maybe Tuktamysheva is the only one who really has a good reason be pissed.

 

[Dub16]

I am in shock but so pleased by this decision.

I am shocked that people are shocked. No matter how unbelievable their defence, the accused deserve to have due process. Investigations take time. However, the outcome was only ever going to go one way. If it had not, it would have turned the entire global anti-doping system on its head.

Valievas test from the Olympics were clean

However, her tests from six weeks earlier were not. This is what disqualifies her from the Olympics. Why do you not understand?

The team didn't cheat. A skater did.

Valieva was part of a team though. It remains to be seen if her results only will be invalidated. Either way Russia (or rather Russian Olympic Committee) loses its medal. We have so many other examples from other sports.

This is a fake event with fake competition format.

You can say this about any event or competition format. All are made up at some point.

 

[Dub16]

Taking an illegal substance 2 months before a competition should absolutely be punished, but very unlikely affected the actual performance on the night.

Nobody is saying Russian skaters are not talented. But it is naive to think that Valieva's doping is just a one off incident. The drugs she was given may not have helped her skating technique, but they did enable her to train harder and recover faster. She had an unfair advantage over her competitors. Well, her non-Russian competitors at least.

Past doping scandals in other sports have shown that when a positive test comes from one athlete in a training group it is never just that one athlete.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Figure skating is not swimming, and doping is not some magic potion. Taking an illegal substance 2 months before a competition should absolutely be punished, but very unlikely affected the actual performance on the night. Making it sound as if the only reason why Valieva won was doping, or that other skaters didn't win because they didn't use doping, has nothing to do with how figure skating (or doping) work.

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. Many (and probably most that go undetected currently) of these drugs are performance enhancers that allow for higher levels of training, increased strengthening loads, etc. etc.- all of the things that take months, not days to develop. The whole point of many of the illegal drugs is to use them during base training and high-intensity build-ups, then allow them to clear ahead of competition since they've already had maximum effect.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. Many (and probably most that go undetected currently) of these drugs are performance enhancers that allow for higher levels of training, increased strengthening loads, etc. etc.- all of the things that take months, not days to develop. The whole point of many of the illegal drugs is to use them during base training and high-intensity build-ups, then allow them to clear ahead of competition since they've already had maximum effect.

I think this has been debated to death? So it's not like someone is going to be convinced now otherwise.

Performance enhancers give more endurance and so on, which is true and obviously allows for more intensive training. But figure skating is a coordination sport rather than endurance or strength one, and therefore the effect of performance enhancers is at best indirect, and for the most part wouldn't have played a major role, compared to training conditions, genetics, psychological preparation and technique. Doesn't matter how much doping Sadovski drinks, he's not going to outskate Nathan Chen. And for 99% of the skaters the battle vs. Tutberidze is lost before it began because she has unlimited ice time, unlimited resources, unlimited pool of skaters and unlimited allowance for psychological abuse. Doping is just a small and insignificant cherry on top.

Did it give some miniscule bonus? I would suppose. Was it the difference between 1st and 2nd place at the Olympics team event? That's ridiculous, absolutely not.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

ETA: and actually it's very easy to prove my point.

Just look at the history of doping in figure skating. And now compare it to any other sport. One might say that figure skaters are made out of a different dough, and they are just that anti doping naturally, but anyone who spent 5 minutes with an elite athlete knows that the only explanation as to why (nearly) none of them has (nearly) ever taken doing is that doping doesn't really have an effect worth the risk.

There's literally nothing an elite athlete wouldn't do in order to win, and that includes ruining one's health, losing social interactions, enduring psychological abuse, becoming financially bankrupt, starving and the list goes on. The only way to stop this is to prevent the victory by set rules, hense, anti-doping. If doping was really contributing to results in figure skating, we would have had hundreds of cases through the history.

OT, but while I don't have a formed opinion about transgenders rights, one thing I'm absolutely adamant about, and that is trans-women must not be allowed into women's sport under no circumstances. And that is because it would create a situation in which male athletes would absolutely start changing gender, passing whatever operations and therapy required, just to get that competitive edge, and worse yet, would be pushed to do that by coaches and parents. I repeat, just spend 5 minutes with an elite athlete.

 

[skatingguy]

ETA: and actually it's very easy to prove my point.

Just look at the history of doping in figure skating. And now compare it to any other sport. One might say that figure skaters are made out of a different dough, and they are just that anti doping naturally, but anyone who spent 5 minutes with an elite athlete knows that the only explanation as to why (nearly) none of them has (nearly) ever taken doing is that doping doesn't really have an effect worth the risk.

Have they not taken anything, or have they not been caught? Given the high profile athletes who were doping, and never tested positive it's not something we can rule out. Doping may not be pervasive in figure skating, but that doesn't mean that it's uncommon.

 

[bladesofgorey]

I think this has been debated to death? So it's not like someone is going to be convinced now otherwise.

Performance enhancers give more endurance and so on, which is true and obviously allows for more intensive training. But figure skating is a coordination sport rather than endurance or strength one

What?! First, it's not opinion, it's actual science, there's a difference. It's also how these drugs are used in practice. I used to train with world-class distance runners. Performance enhancers and who they suspected (or knew) were using them was a main topic of conversation on long runs and at post-run meals. I both personally knew a national-class athlete who was banned (for taking a supplement where the banned ingredient wasn't listed on the label) as well as a runner whose national record was broken by his good friend - who then later was discovered to have been doping when he did it. Talk about a betrayal.

I also used to figure skate - not at a high level, but I'd passed my Novice. Getting through a program for me was as taxing as intervals on a track were later. I'm trying to figure out in what world someone could say massive amounts of strength and endurance training/ aerobic and anaerobic conditioning aren't a part of figure skating.

 

[overedge]

Have they not taken anything, or have they not been caught? Given the high profile athletes who were doping, and never tested positive it's not something we can rule out. Doping may not be pervasive in figure skating, but that doesn't mean that it's uncommon.

And there are some types of doping that wouldn't help at all in figure skating. Like steroids to improve muscle strength and mass - that might help e.g. for skaters who are lifting other skaters, but it wouldn't help at all with flexibility and extension.

 

[airgelaal]

I think this has been debated to death? So it's not like someone is going to be convinced now otherwise.

Performance enhancers give more endurance and so on, which is true and obviously allows for more intensive training. But figure skating is a coordination sport rather than endurance or strength one, and therefore the effect of performance enhancers is at best indirect, and for the most part wouldn't have played a major role, compared to training conditions, genetics, psychological preparation and technique. Doesn't matter how much doping Sadovski drinks, he's not going to outskate Nathan Chen. And for 99% of the skaters the battle vs. Tutberidze is lost before it began because she has unlimited ice time, unlimited resources, unlimited pool of skaters and unlimited allowance for psychological abuse. Doping is just a small and insignificant cherry on top.

Did it give some miniscule bonus? I would suppose. Was it the difference between 1st and 2nd place at the Olympics team event? That's ridiculous, absolutely not.

Really? Let's imagine that Nathan could train only 15 minutes a day, and Roman could train for 4 hours. Are you still sure that Nathan's results would have been better?

 

[bladesofgorey]

And there are some types of doping that wouldn't help at all in figure skating. Like steroids to improve muscle strength and mass - that might help e.g. for skaters who are lifting other skaters, but it wouldn't help at all with flexibility and extension.

Figure skaters would probably avoid most traditional steroids because of the increased weight gain associated with them (maybe there are designer drugs without those side effects now?) but of course figure skaters are helped by increased muscle strength! Jumping's not just all timing and technique.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Really? Let's imagine that Nathan could train only 15 minutes a day, and Roman could train for 4 hours. Are you still sure that Nathan's results would have been better?

Is training time a doping now?

The limit on the training time for most athletes is not how much they can physically train but rather how much ice time they have. If an elite skater can only train 15 minutes without drugs, that's not an elite skater. And if both have unlimited amount of ice time, the difference between 5 hours without doping and 5.5 hours with doping is not going to make a difference between gold and silver at the Olympics.

Same goes for the other argument. Of course stamina is important, but if there's an elite skater in his 20ies who can't finish a 4 minutes skate, trust and believe, no amount of doping will help him.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Have they not taken anything, or have they not been caught? Given the high profile athletes who were doping, and never tested positive it's not something we can rule out. Doping may not be pervasive in figure skating, but that doesn't mean that it's uncommon.

Don't you think it would be very weird if an Olympic sport since late 1890ies was the only one in which there's literally 5 instances of documented doping, while in all other sports such instances occur left and right?

 

[Judy]

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. Many (and probably most that go undetected currently) of these drugs are performance enhancers that allow for higher levels of training, increased strengthening loads, etc. etc.- all of the things that take months, not days to develop. The whole point of many of the illegal drugs is to use them during base training and high-intensity build-ups, then allow them to clear ahead of competition since they've already had maximum effect.

Definitely true.

 

[airgelaal]

Is training time a doping now?

If doping allows you to train effectively, then yes.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

What?! First, it's not opinion, it's actual science, there's a difference. It's also how these drugs are used in practice. I used to train with world-class distance runners. Performance enhancers and who they suspected (or knew) were using them was a main topic of conversation on long runs and at post-run meals. I both personally knew a national-class athlete who was banned (for taking a supplement where the banned ingredient wasn't listed on the label) as well as a runner whose national record was broken by his good friend - who then later was discovered to have been doping when he did it. Talk about a betrayal.

I also used to figure skate - not at a high level, but I'd passed my Novice. Getting through a program for me was as taxing as intervals on a track were later. I'm trying to figure out in what world someone could say massive amounts of strength and endurance training/ aerobic and anaerobic conditioning aren't a part of figure skating.

You know what, I can play this game too

Sure, absolutely, doping is super useful for the figure skaters and if one takes enough doping, gold medal is guaranteed.

Given that, how do you explain the fact that in the history of figure skating there have been less than 10 instances of documented doping, as well as zero past competitive admissions, revealing memoirs, secret interviews and so on; while in every other sport, from gymnastics to weightlifting, there have been hundreds of not thousands of these?

 

[VGThuy]

The way I look at the burden shifting to the athlete, it is like if somebody was stopped due to suspicion that they were driving under the influence and then take a breathalyzer or other state recognized test that is considered legitimate and accurate and that driver fails that test. Usually that is enough to meet to be beyond a reasonable doubt standard, and it is up to the defendant to somehow overtake the results of that test. Usually, if any of those get overturned or dismissed, it is because there was a procedural issue that the officer violated. Or you live in one of those nice states where they give deals on the regular and give you probation. I guess it is more serious when your liberty interest or at stake so they are more inclined to help find alternatives, so that way your freedom isn’t taking away so long as you take a guilty plea and do what you can to show remorse.

 

[skatingguy]

Don't you think it would be very weird if an Olympic sport since late 1890ies was the only one in which there's literally 5 instances of documented doping, while in all other sports such instances occur left and right?

No. The testers are always at a disadvantage, and are always behind in the sources, and methods used for doping. Also, testing really only starts in the late 1970's so that's the time frame we're talking about.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

If doping allows you to train effectively, then yes.

What do you mean by "effectively"?

Do you think training 6 hours a day is more effective than training 5 hours a day, regardless of the rest of the parameters? Or do you think an elite athlete in his teens doesn't have enough stamina to have all the run-throughs one needs for a high coordination sport?

Idk, I understand I'm in absolute minority here, but for me this discussion is absolutely bonkers

To land a triple axel one needs so many different parameters, that the idea that just additional hour of training is going to make THE difference is so weird, I can't even understand why we're discussing it
Are we all sure we aren't extrapolating situation in other sports onto skating? Are we sure we don't give too much importance to the less important parameters of the training? And why am I the only one who thinks it's absolutely obvious the reason for Tutberidze's success is in unlimited resources, free hand to do whatever she wants with her students, endless amount of girls and help of the judges/technical specialists, and doping (while obviously) gives only miniscule effect on top of everything else?

This is fun

 

[Judy]

You know what, I can play this game too

Sure, absolutely, doping is super useful for the figure skaters and if one takes enough doping, gold medal is guaranteed.

Given that, how do you explain the fact that in the history of figure skating there have been less than 10 instances of documented doping, as well as zero past competitive admissions, revealing memoirs, secret interviews and so on; while in every other sport, from gymnastics to weightlifting, there have been hundreds of not thousands of these?

You still have to be a certain quality skater to begin with 100%.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

No. The testers are always at a disadvantage, and are always behind in the sources, and methods used for doping. Also, testing really only starts in the late 1970's so that's the time frame we're talking about.

Yes, of course.

And figure skaters are made from a different material, so while the testers have successfully cracked every other sport, they failed to catch generations upon generations of figure skaters, who are just so damn better in hiding illegal substances than literally any other sport in existence. Apart from chess.

Makes sense.

 

[skatingguy]

Yes, of course.

And figure skaters are made from a different material, so while the testers have successfully cracked every other sport, they failed to catch generations upon generations of figure skaters, who are just so damn better in hiding illegal substances than literally any other sport in existence. Apart from chess.

Makes sense.

Just because there are more positive tests in other sports does not mean that they have some how cracked other sports. If doping is more pervasive in a sport, like cycling, then it makes sense that a large number of athletes will be caught, but that doesn't mean that an athlete like Lance Armstrong can't evade all the testing.

 

[airgelaal]

Given that, how do you explain the fact that in the history of figure skating there have been less than 10 instances of documented doping, as well as zero past competitive admissions, revealing memoirs, secret interviews and so on; while in every other sport, from gymnastics to weightlifting, there have been hundreds of not thousands of these?

Let me just remind you that russian figure skaters admitted that they used mildronate when it was allowed. Why use something that, according to you, figure skaters absolutely do not need?

What do you mean by "effectively"?

Do you think training 6 hours a day is more effective than training 5 hours a day, regardless of the rest of the parameters? Or do you think an elite athlete in his teens doesn't have enough stamina to have all the run-throughs one needs for a high coordination sport?

To be able to do more in 5 hours than without it is the most important characteristic of doping.

 

[bladesofgorey]

You know what, I can play this game too

Sure, absolutely, doping is super useful for the figure skaters and if one takes enough doping, gold medal is guaranteed.

Given that, how do you explain the fact that in the history of figure skating there have been less than 10 instances of documented doping, as well as zero past competitive admissions, revealing memoirs, secret interviews and so on; while in every other sport, from gymnastics to weightlifting, there have been hundreds of not thousands of these?

First of all, show me where I said that if someone dopes enough they are guaranteed a medal.

Secondly, in the running world years went by with whisper campaigns around who was doping, with the defenders always saying "so and so has been competing for 10 years and never tested positive" until one day they do, and then it comes out they've just evaded detection for years. If there's enough incentive to dope, unscrupulous doctors and training environments test and discover new drug cocktails and dosing plans that evade current testing protocols.

Going back to my second point- it's possible that doping hasn't been widespread in figure skating until now because the shadowy support system for cheaters isn't in place in general in this sport. There aren't athlete agents and promoters getting a cut, in most countries skaters can barely afford ice time and coaching fees, and they certainly aren't getting huge Nike contracts and their support teams aren't getting big $$$ when their athletes do well. There also probably hasn't been much experimenting around which drugs are best for optimal performance for young skaters until recently in countries that have a history of organized doping (like the one we are discussing).

With the rise of Eteri and the huge interest and $ to be made in addition to the sport's importance in propaganda I wouldn't be surprised if there was recently a lot more focus on developing the perfect performance enhancers whereas before that focus went into other sports instead.

 

[VGThuy]

What do you mean by "effectively"?

Do you think training 6 hours a day is more effective than training 5 hours a day, regardless of the rest of the parameters? Or do you think an elite athlete in his teens doesn't have enough stamina to have all the run-throughs one needs for a high coordination sport?

Idk, I understand I'm in absolute minority here, but for me this discussion is absolutely bonkers

To land a triple axel one needs so many different parameters, that the idea that just additional hour of training is going to make THE difference is so weird, I can't even understand why we're discussing it
Are we all sure we aren't extrapolating situation in other sports onto skating? Are we sure we don't give too much importance to the less important parameters of the training? And why am I the only one who thinks it's absolutely obvious the reason for Tutberidze's success is in unlimited resources, free hand to do whatever she wants with her students, endless amount of girls and help of the judges/technical specialists, and doping (while obviously) gives only miniscule effect on top of everything else?

This is fun

I mean most of us aren’t experts in this field, right? If a pharmacologist, chemist, and other sports scientists want to weigh in, that’d be great. Otherwise, arguments against the bans on PED in figure skating are just presenting arguments based on “feelings” and not facts, don’t seem very helpful in terms of clarifying the situation.

 

[Judy]

If anyone has the time, energy or desire when Ben Johnson in 1988 won and then lost his gold medal to u.s. Carl Lewis due to doping .. Canada had a federal inquiry. I never read the Dublin inquiry until recently (it took months). It was mind boggling what was going on and the cover ups at so many levels back then. I feel things have improved since. They covered different sports .. figure skating wasn’t one.

Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web

publications.gc.ca

 

[PRlady]

Two things can be true. Doping doesn’t help figure skaters much, or not enough for the vast majority to take the risk. It’s a low-drug sport.

OTOH, given the devout cultural belief in doping, Russian skaters DO think it helps them and do what they can. Why the hell were they taking meldonium until it was banned? Because it’s win at any cost and even a tiny advantage is worth it.

So how much good the tMZ actually does is certainly up for grabs, but it seems that Valieva’s team thought it did. It’s even more stupid to ruin her life and career for something of marginal value but they’re really not very smart, are they.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Two things can be true. Doping doesn’t help figure skaters much, or not enough for the vast majority to take the risk. It’s a low-drug sport.

This is highly unlikely to be true unless figure skating defies all other exercise science and physiology science that applies to all other sports where strength and conditioning are an integral part of high performance.

 

[manhn]

Patrick, Duhamel, Eric, Tessa and Scott wouldn't have skated both components in the team event if they didn't take the event seriously.

It’s like people think us stoopid Canadians think that Roman et al would have beaten Team Russia if the Russians were clean. Duh, thanks for that. Then, it begs the question…why not be clean? Roman scare them that much?

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Just because there are more positive tests in other sports does not mean that they have some how cracked other sports. If doping is more pervasive in a sport, like cycling, then it makes sense that a large number of athletes will be caught, but that doesn't mean that an athlete like Lance Armstrong can't evade all the testing.

Yes. That would have made sense if we were taking about 10 cases vs. 11. We're talking about hundreds vs. I believe, 6? Doesn't anything in these statistics make you think maybe the theory of "skaters just hide better" is not very convincing?

Let me just remind you that russian figure skaters admitted that they used mildronate when it was allowed. Why use something that, according to you, figure skaters absolutely do not need?

Heh.
It's not the question of need or don't need. Of course being able to recover faster is a great feature, unrelated to results

All skaters take something. Vitamins, supplements; healthy diet is also helpful in recovering. The point is different. The point is that the advantage of doping in figure skating is so minimal, it is just not worth the risk. It's not going to make you win a medal, it's going to make you slightly less tired after you finished your performance. No drug in the world will help you land a triple axel.

To be able to do more in 5 hours than without it is the most important characteristic of doping.

Yes.
Back to my point.
Doping can allow training longer.
Training longer is not equal training better and is not equal getting better results.

Above certain threshold, of course. An elite skaters trains something like 4 hours a day, on and off ice. They absolutely physically capable training 5 hours. It's just not how better results are achieved in figure skating.