Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

Laura4 said:
Victoria Sinitsina and Nikita Katsalapov still identifying themselves as gold medalists of the team event in their Instagram bios. ?
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ChelleC said:
I don't expect any member of the Russian team to ever change their bios on any social media.
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Based on the way things are going with free speech in Russia they might be subject to arrest if they acknowledge the decision, particularly while it's under appeal. Nothing can be said/done that would undermine the image of the country.
 
Karen-W said:
Oh, gawd... Tatiana Tarasova has chimed in.

Read at your stomachs own peril...

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Karen-W said:
So, this Twitter account is providing translations of responses to Eteri's statement from Yana R and Tatiana Tarasova. Can anyone confirm if these are legit? If so :rofl:

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airgelaal said:
Yep :watch:
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Is the first statement something that Tarasova actually said? The Skating Lesson posted it on social media without link it to anything verifiable.

It is certainly at odds with the latter post.
 
Karen-W said:
Nope - we need the actual TE document itself.

https://www.isu.org/docman-document...tion-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file
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I was listening to The Runthrough podcast. Ashley and Adam were kind of clueless, but Sarah, who is their producer and the NBC skating and Olympics producer, was on top of the rules. She seemed to be relying on these same rules when she said that, although the anti-doping rules themselves do not mention changing placement, the team event rules (which she said were included in the document about qualifying) did say that Rule 353 applied to disqualifications in the team event and there should have been placement changes after Valieva's disqualification.

So, I suspect that these rules you linked to really were the rules that applied (and were not changed in any material way due to COVID). It's possible that Sarah is unaware of a new document, but I would think that she and NBC would have been operating under the rules that actually ended up governing the event. And nobody seems to have found a document that supersedes this one (aside from someone referring to a comment on a private Twitter account suggesting that there was such a document).
 
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Local news interview with Vincent Zhou - the first half or so talks about other things so I've time-stamped it to when he begins to talk about the Olympic gold -

- YouTube

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Karen-W said:
Local news interview with Vincent Zhou - the first half or so talks about other things so I've time-stamped it to when he begins to talk about the Olympic gold -

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtu.be youtu.be
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I love that he is still talking about that the doping issue is an ongoing problem and needs to be addressed.
 
skatingguy said:
Based on the way things are going with free speech in Russia they might be subject to arrest if they acknowledge the decision, particularly while it's under appeal. Nothing can be said/done that would undermine the image of the country.
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One of the reasons why the IOC decided not to give the medals is that the russians have not returned them for years. For years!!! This is not something new.
And, by the way, Moskvina, Kostomarov and Enbert said that the bronze medals are ok. Those who want to speak out speak up. For the rest, others will find excuses. As always.
 
My point was that (1) the decision would be political and (2) they would contrive to make the math work to support ROC. And that in the aftermath of Speedy dumping ordinals and factored placements, it was idiotic for the ISU to use a 10-point scale rather than simply adding up all of the individual points earned by each skater? In that situation, all you need to do is subtract Valievs's SP and FS scores and be done with it. No potential flip-flops among country team rankings as are ALWAYS possible with factored placements.

I also performed the calculations if you disqualified ALL the ROC skaters and a huge flip-flop would have occurred after the 1st round. WITHOUT ROC, the top 3 countries would be USA, JPN, and CAN. But because CHN finished 1st in the Pairs SP, GEO would have edged out CHN for 4th place (with ROC completely DQ'd) and should have advanced to the free skating/dancing instead of CHN.

In no way am I defending the ISU because they probably are too stupid to realize what happens with disqualification. Back in the day, no one changed the placements for injury withdrawals: those placements remained in the final calculations. No one deleted Tonya Harding's 1st place in the SP or LP at 1994 US Nationals--placement 2 was the highest available for the SP and FS.

Christine Brennan blathering about simple math shows her naivety about the complexities of figure skating accounting when skaters drop out during the event or get disqualified afterwards WHEN YOJ ARE DEALING WITH PLACEMENTS. She would be correct if the Team Event results were simply the sum of all the skaters scores. But it wasn't.

Hopefully the ISU will fix the scoring system for the Team Event before 2026 to eliminate placements and simply add up the raw scores. That's more fair anyway since the raw scores capture the margin of victory better than placements.

Let's get back to celebrating the Team Gold medals for USA and Silver medals for JPN. Be happy they didn't find a way to give Valieva a slap on the wrist so that ROC kept the Team Gold Medals.

Net-net, I think we all know this was a purely political decision and the Russians still hold more sway than the Canadians. For whatever reason they wanted to appease the Russians, math be damned.
 
Saw mention of this on reddit and went to find link below:

www.sports.ru

РУСÐÐРпопÑоÑÐ¸Ñ CAS не ÑаÑкÑÑваÑÑ Ð¼Ð¾ÑивиÑовоÑнÑÑ ÑаÑÑÑ ÑеÑÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾ Ð´ÐµÐ»Ñ Ðалиевой

Ðб ÑÑом ÑообÑили в РоÑÑийÑком анÑидопинговом агенÑÑÑве (РУСÐÐÐ).
www.sports.ru www.sports.ru

Google translation of title is:

RUSADA will ask CAS not to disclose the reasoning part of the decision in the Valieva case​

Google translation of content:

RUSADA will ask CAS not to publish the reasoning part of the decision on Valieva.

This was reported by the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA).

RUSADA received the full text of the verdict in the figure skater’s case.

“ RUSADA respects the rights of athletes. In this case, we did everything to maintain the confidentiality of information about the protected person's case.

We have received the full text of the decision, the lawyers are getting acquainted with it. With a high degree of probability, we will ask CAS to maintain the confidentiality of the reasoning part of the decision,” says the RUSADA release.

CAS suspended Valieva for four years for an anti-doping rule violation effective December 25, 2021.


I read somewhere earlier that when the report is made public people will understand why it was a 4 year ban. I really hope it is made public. I understand she was a minor and is naturally a talented skater but despite people like Phil Hersh whining that this is way too harsh I think those sentiments should be withheld until people know why this happened. Is this a Sochi part two type situation? Anyone with two brain cells knows the girls in Eteri's camp are children who are told what to do by all the adults around them. But all the more reason to expose what needs to be exposed instead of letting them hide behind minor children and use that as a possible loophole.
 
Yuri said:
Hopefully the ISU will fix the scoring system for the Team Event before 2026 to eliminate placements and simply add up the raw scores. That's more fair anyway since the raw scores capture the margin of victory better than placements.
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If you do that, then the four disciplines aren't equal, especially since men's totals are that much higher.
 
To fix the team event they can let each country drop the lowest discipline. They could also add a head to head skill competition, with the lower ranked skater/team picking the skill.
 
There has to be a mathematical way to make the scores from the four different disciplines equivalent in some way - percentage of WR score, or something so that the results aren't based on rankings, but quality of skating in each discipline.
 
Christine Brennan blathering about simple math shows her naivety about the complexities of figure skating accounting when skaters drop out during the event or get disqualified afterwards WHEN YOJ ARE DEALING WITH PLACEMENTS. She would be correct if the Team Event results were simply the sum of all the skaters scores. But it wasn't.
Click to expand...

How complex is: first place gets 10 points, 2nd place gets nine points, etc etc, and first place is the person with the most points, second place is the person with the second most points, etc etc? Brennan is not "naive". She's asking a very simple question. If someone is removed from the placements, why doesn't everyone else move up a place and why aren't the team scores adjusted accordingly?

Somebody's trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be. And that person isn't Christine Brennan.
 
Yuri said:
My point was that (1) the decision would be political and (2) they would contrive to make the math work to support ROC. And that in the aftermath of Speedy dumping ordinals and factored placements, it was idiotic for the ISU to use a 10-point scale rather than simply adding up all of the individual points earned by each skater? In that situation, all you need to do is subtract Valievs's SP and FS scores and be done with it. No potential flip-flops among country team rankings as are ALWAYS possible with factored placements.

I also performed the calculations if you disqualified ALL the ROC skaters and a huge flip-flop would have occurred after the 1st round. WITHOUT ROC, the top 3 countries would be USA, JPN, and CAN. But because CHN finished 1st in the Pairs SP, GEO would have edged out CHN for 4th place (with ROC completely DQ'd) and should have advanced to the free skating/dancing instead of CHN.

In no way am I defending the ISU because they probably are too stupid to realize what happens with disqualification. Back in the day, no one changed the placements for injury withdrawals: those placements remained in the final calculations. No one deleted Tonya Harding's 1st place in the SP or LP at 1994 US Nationals--placement 2 was the highest available for the SP and FS.

Christine Brennan blathering about simple math shows her naivety about the complexities of figure skating accounting when skaters drop out during the event or get disqualified afterwards WHEN YOJ ARE DEALING WITH PLACEMENTS. She would be correct if the Team Event results were simply the sum of all the skaters scores. But it wasn't.

Hopefully the ISU will fix the scoring system for the Team Event before 2026 to eliminate placements and simply add up the raw scores. That's more fair anyway since the raw scores capture the margin of victory better than placements.

Let's get back to celebrating the Team Gold medals for USA and Silver medals for JPN. Be happy they didn't find a way to give Valieva a slap on the wrist so that ROC kept the Team Gold Medals.

Net-net, I think we all know this was a purely political decision and the Russians still hold more sway than the Canadians. For whatever reason they wanted to appease the Russians, math be damned.
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I don’t particularly think using raw points helps in “fairness”. Not when each discipline has a wide disparity in scores and one (Dance) is capped somewhere in the mid 130s for the fd. I think it’s something close to that anyway.

This would cause a situation that would favour teams that are strong in men’s singles and hinder those that are more strong in dance. Your men’s entry would be more valuable to the team score than any other entry. I suspect this is why it wasn’t done that way to begin with.
 
Yuri said:
My point was that (1) the decision would be political and (2) they would contrive to make the math work to support ROC. And that in the aftermath of Speedy dumping ordinals and factored placements, it was idiotic for the ISU to use a 10-point scale rather than simply adding up all of the individual points earned by each skater? In that situation, all you need to do is subtract Valievs's SP and FS scores and be done with it. No potential flip-flops among country team rankings as are ALWAYS possible with factored placements.

I also performed the calculations if you disqualified ALL the ROC skaters and a huge flip-flop would have occurred after the 1st round. WITHOUT ROC, the top 3 countries would be USA, JPN, and CAN. But because CHN finished 1st in the Pairs SP, GEO would have edged out CHN for 4th place (with ROC completely DQ'd) and should have advanced to the free skating/dancing instead of CHN.

In no way am I defending the ISU because they probably are too stupid to realize what happens with disqualification. Back in the day, no one changed the placements for injury withdrawals: those placements remained in the final calculations. No one deleted Tonya Harding's 1st place in the SP or LP at 1994 US Nationals--placement 2 was the highest available for the SP and FS.

Christine Brennan blathering about simple math shows her naivety about the complexities of figure skating accounting when skaters drop out during the event or get disqualified afterwards WHEN YOJ ARE DEALING WITH PLACEMENTS. She would be correct if the Team Event results were simply the sum of all the skaters scores. But it wasn't.

Hopefully the ISU will fix the scoring system for the Team Event before 2026 to eliminate placements and simply add up the raw scores. That's more fair anyway since the raw scores capture the margin of victory better than placements.

Let's get back to celebrating the Team Gold medals for USA and Silver medals for JPN. Be happy they didn't find a way to give Valieva a slap on the wrist so that ROC kept the Team Gold Medals.

Net-net, I think we all know this was a purely political decision and the Russians still hold more sway than the Canadians. For whatever reason they wanted to appease the Russians, math be damned.
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I'll give you credit, @Yuri, for sounding like an accountant - a mafia boss' accountant or a government accountant. Which, I suppose, is a perfect way to describe a USFS or ISU competition accountant.

But, honestly, this math is pretty darned simple and it is abundantly clear how the ISU treated the countries that did NOT field an entrant in two different disciplines of the Team Event. Why are the Women being treated differently, apart from using some creative logic to find a way for Russia to keep any medal? That is how the Team Event results should be recalculated but, of course, a bureaucrat will find some way to explain whatever outcome they wish to achieve.
 
overedge said:
How complex is: first place gets 10 points, 2nd place gets nine points, etc etc, and first place is the person with the most points, second place is the person with the second most points, etc etc? Brennan is not "naive". She's asking a very simple question. If someone is removed from the placements, why doesn't everyone else move up a place and why aren't the team scores adjusted accordingly?

Somebody's trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be. And that person isn't Christine Brennan.
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Yeah. Not complex at all. Even the Russians haven't played the "it's too complex" card. :D Maybe because that would have made them look like morons. And the ISU (which arguably includes some morons) couldn't have thought that changing placements is too complex. It's in the ISU's Rule 353, which unquestionably applies to individual skating events and was incorporated into the document they issued about the team event.

The Code of Points is much, much more complex than Rule 353. If officials can handle that, then they handle Rule 353 in their sleep.
 
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I am more concerned that there is little discussion to update rules that teams in all sports are disqualified if one of the athletes tests positive. Even if the standings remain, I want that updated. I am kinda appalled the number of relay teams who kept their medals in relatively recent Olympics even when one of the athletes tested positive.
 
Yuri said:
Christine Brennan blathering about simple math shows her naivety about the complexities of figure skating accounting when skaters drop out during the event or get disqualified afterwards WHEN YOJ ARE DEALING WITH PLACEMENTS. She would be correct if the Team Event results were simply the sum of all the skaters scores. But it wasn't.
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It was complicated in an ordinal system (I used to do that as well). It is not complicated with IJS and the way the team event is scored. That is easy AF to calculate.
 
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