The Technical Panel: Understanding the Key Points in the '21/'22 RD

[tony]

I'm crashing his party here but @thvu and I talk a lot about ice dance scoring and our disagreements with the calls throughout events. If you remember, he called Hubbell/Donohue's 4CC stationary lift drama in real-time in PBP threads here. He put together a video highlighting the four key points of the Midnight Blues rhythm dance and the correct edges for each. I know he's planning on doing these videos for the other elements, as well. This is fantastic stuff!

Midnight Blues - Explaining the Key Points (ISU Ice Dance. 2021-22 Pattern Dance Element.)

Breaking down the Key Points for the ISU 2021-22 Pattern Dance Element, the Midnight Blues.Ice Dance doesn't have to be hard to watch and understand. It just...

www.youtube.com

 

[Karen-W]

I'm crashing his party here but @thvu and I talk a lot about ice dance scoring and our disagreements with the calls throughout events. If you remember, he called Hubbell/Donohue's 4CC stationary lift drama in real-time in PBP threads here. He put together a video highlighting the four key points of the Midnight Blues rhythm dance and the correct edges for each. I know he's planning on doing these videos for the other elements, as well. This is fantastic stuff!

Midnight Blues - Explaining the Key Points (ISU Ice Dance. 2021-22 Pattern Dance Element.)

Breaking down the Key Points for the ISU 2021-22 Pattern Dance Element, the Midnight Blues.Ice Dance doesn't have to be hard to watch and understand. It just...

www.youtube.com

Ooooo, can't wait to watch later this evening! I really have a hard time knowing what to look for with the Midnight Blues.

 

[peibeck]

Thanks @tony and @thvu

Honestly this is easier (for me) to understand than ISU videos I've seen trying to explain the same elements.

I'd be interested on hearing your thoughts on what couples most fail to accomplish when going for the keypoints, just being on a flat instead of the correct edge, not fully completing a bracket/turn, etc.?

Another question, if the mark is a T, for timing, is the deduction as severe as an N? I don't know that I've ever noticed.

Thanks for my, probably, silly sounding questions. I love ice dance, but the intricacies leave me wondering at times.

 

[tony]

Thanks @tony and @thvu

Honestly this is easier (for me) to understand than ISU videos I've seen trying to explain the same elements.

I'd be interested on hearing your thoughts on what couples most fail to accomplish when going for the keypoints, just being on a flat instead of the correct edge, not fully completing a bracket, etc.?

It could be a multitude of things, but yes- flats or wobbling from one edge to the other (sometimes on a transition you'll see a very shaky edge trying to get into the proper inside/outside edge while top teams get into deep edges immediately), 'jumping' the turns, the correct timing could be off, etc.

Another question, if the mark is a T, for timing, is the deduction as severe as an N? I don't know that I've ever noticed.

T and N both are considered as 'N' level-wise. So TTTT would be base level, just as NNNN would be.

Thanks for my, probably, silly sounding questions. I love ice dance, but the intricacies leave me wondering at times.

@thvu is the encyclopedia, and I know he loves talking about this stuff

 

[thvu]

Thanks for my, probably, silly sounding questions. I love ice dance, but the intricacies leave me wondering at times.

@tony beat me to the reply about N vs T.

I’m going to do a video about calling the Midnight Blues. That, twizzles, and lifts should be the next videos. My goal is to break the elements down to give people a way to think about the elements.

The ISU does such a poor job explaining how elements are called and scored. They really need to hire someone with an education / curriculum background.

 

[peibeck]

The ISU does such a poor job explaining how elements are called and scored.

They are trying to keep up with some of the nonsensical judging.

 

[VGThuy]

Also, on the subject of Y, N, and Ts, there’s also the rare occurrence where a team can get all Ys on their pattern key points but still lose a level if there’s something off outside of the KP. I found that out with the Shibs’ 2015 Worlds SD. It cost them a spot in the final group for the FD at those Worlds.

 

[thvu]

@VGThuy An interruption during the pattern steps for 4 or less beats reduces the level by one. That could be the most minor of stumbles to a tripping on a toepick. That's probably what happened to the Shibs. This actually sounds familiar now that you mention it! Key Points were also called differently back then. I believe there were only 3, but each had requirements for the man and woman. Today, they indicate a reduction in level with the < symbol. I don't think they did that back then.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Excellent vid, thvu! Totally helped me understand the key points. I still don't see how the tech specialists can watch that fast though..

 

[tony]

Excellent vid, thvu! Totally helped me understand the key points. I still don't see how the tech specialists can watch that fast though..

AFAIK, The Technical Specialist will call the key points that are done at different times, plus the key point of the woman when they are doing them simultaneously (which are key points 1 and 2 in the Midnight Blues). So the TS duty this year would be key points 1, 3, and 4. The Assistant Technical Specialist would be calling key point 2 (the man). Then they can verify with the Controller and often the patterns are reviewed and sometimes adjusted. (see below)

It can be hard to see in real-time, but it's the same thing over and over and over all season long

 

[Karen-W]

Most technical panel members have been ice dancers, too, correct? Or at least learned the patterns and skated them, so I assume it's a lot easier for them to recognize in real-time what is being done correctly and on beat.

 

[Andrea82]

AFAIK, The Technical Specialist will call the key points that are done at different times, plus the key point of the woman when they are doing them simultaneously (which are key points 1 and 2 in the Midnight Blues). So the TS duty this year would be key points 1, 3, and 4. The Assistant Technical Specialist would be calling key point 2 (the man). Then they can verify with the Controller and often the patterns are reviewed and sometimes adjusted.

They changed a bit the "how to call" guide in the handbook this season. Now the handbook says

Key Point for Woman called always by the Technical Specialist and Key Point for Man always by the Assistant Technical Specialist whether Key Point for Woman and Man are performed separately or simultaneously.
When one Key Point includes both Woman and Man; it is called by the Technical Specialist.

 

[tony]

They changed a bit the "how to call" guide in the handbook this season. Now the handbook says

Key Point for Woman called always by the Technical Specialist and Key Point for Man always by the Assistant Technical Specialist whether Key Point for Woman and Man are performed separately or simultaneously.
When one Key Point includes both Woman and Man; it is called by the Technical Specialist.

Thank you! So the corrected version would be TS gets key point 1 and 4, ATS gets key point 2 and 3.

Most technical panel members have been ice dancers, too, correct? Or at least learned the patterns and skated them, so I assume it's a lot easier for them to recognize in real-time what is being done correctly and on beat.

Well, the Midnight Blues is only 20 or so years old so a lot of the committee and callers would've been long-retired by the time it came around but yes, they should all know the steps from experience in general.

 

[Andrea82]

Most technical panel members have been ice dancers, too, correct?

Specialists, yes.
Controllers, not necessarily (they come from judges' pool. Some former competitors chose the judges path rather the specialist one. So you can find some former dancers among the controllers too. For instace, Halina Gordon Poltorak and Marcin Kozubek).

 

[VGThuy]

Just for fun, we should watch pre-IJS compulsories and call key points for the top teams and see how it goes while knowing it has no bearing on results because compulsories were judged differently before IJS.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Thanks, everyone. Your explanations are outstanding!

 

[thvu]

Just for fun, we should watch pre-IJS compulsories and call key points for the top teams and see how it goes while knowing it has no bearing on results because compulsories were judged differently before IJS.

This would be really fun! I just did a quick YouTube search and the camera work for some of them are terrible!

 

[VGThuy]

This would be really fun! I just did a quick YouTube search and the camera work for some of them are terrible!

That’s good! Some of us will have an excuse for some of our calls then, . I call dibs on being Ayako Higashino.

 

[PRlady]

I am so pitifully grateful for this video. Thank you, @thvu !

 

[Debbie S]

Great job, @thvu! Thank you for putting it together and thank you, @tony, for posting!

 

[thvu]

That’s good! Some of us will have an excuse for some of our calls then, . I call dibs on being Ayako Higashino.

I’ll be anyone but Dostatni.

 

[skipaway]

I’ll be anyone but Dostatni.

You have to be good at toe tappping.

 

[tony]

That’s good! Some of us will have an excuse for some of our calls then, . I call dibs on being Ayako Higashino.

I’ll be anyone but Dostatni.

I'll be Gordon-Poltorak. She said about 20 times in the ISU video seminar that she doesn't like giving negatives or being negative in general and that fits me perfectly

 

[BittyBug]

@thvu your video is excellent - great work and a true public service. Even though I've done lower level dances I don't really pay much attention to the technical details of the pattern dances other than to watch general edge quality, so this is really helpful and will make me pay better attention to what's going on in this part of the RDs.

One question, though - am I imagining things, or when describing the 4th KP, are you saying back outside edge, cross over to forward inside edge (on to twizzle), when it should be cross over to backward inside edge?

 

[thvu]

One question, though - am I imagining things, or when describing the 4th KP, are you saying back outside edge, cross over to forward inside edge (on to twizzle), when it should be cross over to backward inside edge?

Oh no! You’re right! I didn’t catch that. . I’ll have to add the correction in the description.