The Shibutanis Thread 4: Ready for Paradise

What can I say about the results? I'm disappointed but H/D were "on" and and Maia and Alex were not. I do agree with posters that the trilogy idea seems a tad self indulgent, but the Shibs know what they want and who am I as a fan and no expert to tell them otherwise. I'm confident they'll regroup, work harder than ever and be prepared for the Olympics.
 
From Jakie Wong twitter:

Shibutanis: At this pt in our career, we have developed a training strategy. This being our 2nd Oly, we know what it's like. We've been to the venue before, so that provides valuable insights as to how we prepare. We haven't skated to full potential yet,by a long shot #USChamps18

Shibutanis: When you go out there and not do the best you can do, that's when it's most frustrating. Ice dance around the world right now ... is incredibly intense, that's the big difference from four years ago. #USChamps18

Shibutanis: Alex and I have a lot to be proud of coming into this week. Today, we had a mistake in the diagonal, but we had each other's backs but there were a lot of things we can be proud of. And we have time to keep pushing ourselves. #USChamps18
 
I spent all my prayer circle and candles for Mirai and totally overlooked the Shibs, thinking "they've got this." I thought the GPF scores would push them to separate themselves from the pack. I know they tried with the changes, and I think it builds better up to the and through the twizzles. They just broke the spell with the stumble. We all can be thankful they didn't drop to Level 2 with the Steps. As has been said many times, they would have won otherwise, because a 'clean' L3 with +GOE would have more than made up the difference. Or if their final two choreo elements had a touch higher GOE. However, can you imagine the blowblack *if* they did win with the stumble? I say congrats to H/D for finally breaking through. They do have a great FD and it works well on them. I do wish Paradise had either more lyrics or a break like Fix You/The Scientist/Fix You - the lyrics seem repetitive...I've thought that since COR. It needs to be more cohesive and build, build, build. Moonlight Sonata does that. Moulin Rouge seems choppy. I don't think Paradise is as obviously self-referential as Seasons. They don't take 'bows' at the end and put their hands over their hearts like they're listening to the national anthem being played.

I did notice on the NBCSports scoring page, it looked like the numbers were being tinkered with a bit. H/D levels held, then one dropped, then dropped again. Same with C/B. I do NOT think the scores were being manipulated to get them closer together - it's just odd the H/D spin was called 4 and then dropped....and dropped again. I did see the error on the replay and don't know enough about features/levels. I know it's common to review elements, but it was just odd to see the changes in real time.

I haven't had the heart to rewatch the Shibs just yet, but I felt if they were skating with more freedom, yet also tentative - as if they were skating to not lose as opposed to skating to win. Maybe they were skating 'bigger' but cautiously so?

At any rate I don't think this is any time to panic. If anything, it will give them even more determination to not be 'stuck in reverse' come February. They can polish the SD (which is a true gem)...odd they missed the final key point in the Rhumba Section...I thought it was the easiest of the three to hit...again not a tech expert. They will also have more mileage and time to practice the new changes to Paradise. They only had a month. It's another six weeks to the SD., Feb 19.

Playing devil's advocate. Who does the USFS leave out in the team event? C/B have had the highest free dance scores the last two match ups with all three teams. Do they rewards the Shibs by giving them both, to test out the FD again? That way they don't have to pick between H/D and C/B. I doubt it, and think they'll spread the wealth.

Also food for thought - will the ice dancing community of judges and behind the scenes really allow a podium sweep of the same coaches, even if it's three different countries? I know it happened in 2011, which was an outlier, but it was Worlds, not Olympics.
 
I don´t understand the L3 in the rhumba pattern either. In the broadcast they chose repeat all the pattern in slow motion and it looks excellent IMO. But who knows, H/D got L3 too. Anyone could to think the panel would be kinder with levels but at this point maybe it is the best, so they can work about it.

I think the magic was lost after the trip, it was an obvious mistake and it came from Maia, from whom people are not used to seeing mistakes. I do not think the problem is their program, they showed as early as their second performance (Skate America) of the season how good it can be. I think that people criticizing their program at this moment is simply making firewood from the fallen tree, it is not like they were clean and still lost.

I just found a russian video about Marina. They show a few of the Shibs and Patrick Chan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX-wc8GoB5w
 
Yes. It's not the perfect way to head into the Olympics, but it's not a meltdown or disaster or being dumped by the judges. It's no secret all three times are fantastic and very close in scoring. Same as it's no secret to hit your levels - end of story. 2014 Olympics and 2016 Worlds, LV4 Steps were handed out like candy. It's been tougher to hit one or both. They lost 3 points in the FD to levels, plus these elements can get bigger GOE, so that's 4-5 points right there.

And for you other Shib Sibs fans struggling with disappointment, just rewatch any of their SD's from this season (or any of the past several), and you will smile and remember why we love them so much!
 
As a dance uber in the rink, it was a glorious night of skating! From McNamara/Carpenter on, the scores kept building with so many personal bests being handed out, you knew the judges were ready to ready to max it out to the top team! The Shibs received the loudest cheers when they were introduced (even at the award ceremony). They were skating full out, as fast as I’ve ever seen them, and I have seen them live almost every year since they won novices. They have gotten the message that people want to see them skate with more freedom.

Yes, the air went out of my balloon when Maia tripped, and of course, their energy and expression was reduced for the remainder of their program. Watching on video this morning, they finished the dance remarkably strong! In real time, I thought the moves to the final spin on Maia’s knee didn’t look as smooth as normal and the choreo lift was not as glorious due to shock of the earlier imperfection.

I like the new straight line lift, it has very sharp and clear positions. It doesn’t fit the “stuck in reverse” line as well as before, but only us Shib ubers got that connection in the first place. From reading this board, most people never caught the references to their other dances in the few bars of music leading to the straight line life and on to the twizzles. People around the world connect the Shibs to “Fix You”, even the non-skating audience. Now the reference is more blatant, but I feel the general audience will appreciate it. The twizzles were fabulous and the fastest in the world as usual –maxed the GOE! The rational lift was exciting! Maia and Alex were really pushing during the final step sequence to keep up the momentum. . .thank God Alex caught Maia. . . and they continued barely missing a step.

Hitting two level 4 step sequences with good GOE is as difficult as nailing a quad lutz/ triple toe combination. (Congrats to HB for accomplishing it last night!) It is not going to happen every time, even for the top dance teams.

Let’s celebrate! The Shibs are going to the Olympics for the second time! The Shibs have an excellent short dance and could win the short dance competition. The Shibs (as Maia tweets) will be stronger because of this national disappointment.
 
I know how disappointed Maia and Alex must feel to lose their title at Nationals, but perhaps this is the motivation they needed. During the Grand Prix season, I felt like they were skating to try and hold on to the bronze medal. I'm not a fan of the music they're using this season, but I hoped they could make it work with their wonderful skating skills. What's missing for me is the lack of attack in their FD. They need to "put it all out there" and skate like they're not content to win bronze, they want the gold medal. Just my two cents. :)
 
H&D had a perfect skate. The Shibs lost because of one error. Overall they lost by 0.19, so they can work hard and focus on skating clean. It may or may not be enough for a bronze at the Olympics but it will certainly give them the satisfaction of skating two great programs.

I have not kept up with the changes they made this season. I was shocked when they placed sixth at the GPF. What went wrong there?
 
Vash01 said:
H&D had a perfect skate. The Shibs lost because of one error. Overall they lost by 0.19, so they can work hard and focus on skating clean. It may or may not be enough for a bronze at the Olympics but it will certainly give them the satisfaction of skating two great programs.

I have not kept up with the changes they made this season. I was shocked when they placed sixth at the GPF. What went wrong there?
Click to expand...

Twizzles and step seq. Alex had problems with twizzles the whole competition and gala, yes, you read right, TWIZZLES :duh:
 
Vash01 said:
H&D had a perfect skate. The Shibs lost because of one error. Overall they lost by 0.19, so they can work hard and focus on skating clean. It may or may not be enough for a bronze at the Olympics but it will certainly give them the satisfaction of skating two great programs.

I have not kept up with the changes they made this season. I was shocked when they placed sixth at the GPF. What went wrong there?
Click to expand...
Alex made mistakes on twizzles in both programs. Now they are even. (Almost. Alex still made more mistakes. :rofl: )
 
chapis said:
I don´t understand the L3 in the rhumba pattern either. In the broadcast they chose repeat all the pattern in slow motion and it looks excellent IMO. But who knows, H/D got L3 too. Anyone could to think the panel would be kinder with levels but at this point maybe it is the best, so they can work about it.

I think the magic was lost after the trip, it was an obvious mistake and it came from Maia, from whom people are not used to seeing mistakes. I do not think the problem is their program, they showed as early as their second performance (Skate America) of the season how good it can be. I think that people criticizing their program at this moment is simply making firewood from the fallen tree, it is not like they were clean and still lost.

I just found a russian video about Marina. They show a few of the Shibs and Patrick Chan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX-wc8GoB5w
Click to expand...
Marina's trophy cabinet!
That pic of Maia and Alex at 1:25! If I were a teenybopper I would blow it up and put it on my wall!
And that is not a younger curly haired Tarosova with Shpilband, is it???
 
I loved the description of the free dance, but I wished the author explained that the Shibs placed second due to a major error. However, this seemed to be a promotional piece for all of the Michigan teams (H/D still count) so I get why the author left that part out.
 
I realized from PRLady last night that HD also made a mistake, losing two levels on a spin. I missed that during the event. But I don't think it was as costly an error (less than 2 pts).
 
Hey all. I'm back home and recovering from a pretty emotionally spent weekend in San Jose. Even in ladies, which I wasn't particularly invested in, I found myself tearing up after Mirai's FS, which continued through Karen's fighting FS and then tears of joy to see Bradie rise to the pressure and hit all her jumps and just bring it. The final group in the men's free skate was a heart attack on a plate-- I found myself happy for Vincent, sad for Grant then ecstatic for Ross, shocked for Adam to devested for Jason and impressed with Nathan in all of an hour.

Anyway back to dance. The short dance was AMAZING to witness in person -- especially the ocho twizzles. Basically Maia and Alex were the only ones to get a full-blown standing o in that SD. I felt so lucky to have witnessed that in person. They looked confident - they had lots of speed, great ice coverage not a foot wrong.

The first half of the FD was actually really great -- I loved the new straight line lift, I felt it flowed with the rest of the program and it seemed like they really add some detail to the first step sequence and the twizzles were fantastic as always, but I agree the energy was a bit sapped after Maia did that stumble. I also credit Alex for helping Maia not cause the stumble to loose any major errors.

The thing is that it is far more costly to lose a level on a step sequence then two levels on a spin, which is why Hubbell/Donohue won. I have to say they turned in a great FD and they were really spot on today, so the win was deserved.

Funny side story: I ended up going to dinner with a few folks on Friday (I only knew one person -- I actually knew her through our professional circles in the Pacific Northwest, but it turned out she was a skating fan too -- but I eventually recognized a bunch of them for being active on Twitter; a lot of them are friends with Patrick, the YouTuber) and I mentioned that I was a ShibSibs uber and that sometimes it was tough to be a fan. And the women at my table were like "What are you talking about? We all love the ShibSibs!" And then I mentioned that they aren't popular on forums, which prompted all of them to say how forums were cesspools of opinion. LOL. But at least it was fun to be in a room for of people who at least liked the Shibs, if not outright uber them.

P.S. for those who asked, Mr. P and Toddler P did fine, although by Saturday, she was saying "Mama mama mama" over and over again and was kinda over dad running things.
 
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I decided to watch their FD again on a bigger screen to get a better look at it, and I have to say, other than the uncharacteristic mistake by Maia, that was a great skate! They skated with more speed and attack here than at any of their previous competitions this season. This is what I've been waiting and wanting to see from them. I want them to skate their hearts out at the Olympics like they're hungry for gold and won't settle for anything less.
 
@MrsP, thank you for the great report. I love hearing how wonderfully the Shibs came across in both their programs. We've been a bunch of nervous Nellies here over the their loss of their crown but I think we are settling back into optimism for the Olympics. I love it that you happened into a group of Shib fans! We've seen some of the cesspool aspect of forums too but all is well in this corner of the universe. I'm glad hubby and baby P did so well. It would have been terrible if she didn't miss you! But that is unimaginable. :)
 
Spun Silver said:
Claire, how would you have ranked the top four? I have to include H/B because their skate and TES were phenomenal. I am a little surprised that you are dissatisfied because I know you love H/D too.
Click to expand...

To get back to this--My dissatisfaction isn't with H/D winning, but more with Chock/Bates winning the free dance, and really with the ice dance judging system overall, which I feel is somehow inadequate in really evaluating the totality of dancers' performance as opposed to levels of a few discrete elements.

My thoughts from the arena (I was sitting about 10 rows up):

--The Shibs amazed me with the speed & passion they showed, the complexity of their movement, and the precision & detail in their skating. They seemed much faster live than on video ( a friend said the same thing on Twitter). Their twizzles were amazing. I thought they had great emotion & power, I was just really impressed. I completely agree with everything @Cayuse said above (great post).

-- Madi/Zach were also really good, but the 2 teams were so different. H/D have even more power/edges than the Shibs, more firm definition to their movement, and more chemistry and hotness, but probably less complexity and speed. I found both programs very good but I do think I preferred the Shibs' on the night. But Madi/Zach had the edge overall due to Maias mistake, and they were great too.

--Chock/Bates' program was pleasant enough but I felt they really lacked the power of both Shibs and H/D. I felt like they skimmed the ice more than getting into it. Their skating skills and presence weren't as impressive. Their lifts are excellent though. My friend who writes about ice dance explained that they won the FD because they didn't make any errors on the elements. But it bothers me that that's all that's required to win? If P/C and V/M get rewarded for great SS and general superiority, why don't H/D and Shibs', relatively speaking? (H/D did get highest PCS, but not by much of a margin.)

--From a performance and SS point of view,. I thought Hawayek/Baker could rival C/B, but they lack the refinement/detail/polish of C/B. I loved H/B, but I noticed some unpointed toes and imperfect lift transitions--things C/B are good at.
 
Thanks, @clairecloutier. From what you say sounds like there is an alternate way to understand CB's slim win, even though HD did make a mistake that cost them close to 2 points and the Shibs a more costly one. To me it sounds like you think the Shibs were hosed at CB's expense (and HD to a lesser degree since they lost the FD by less than a point) in all the PCS categories. ?

From what you said, it seems to me the categories exist to score the teams the way you saw them, but the judges either didn't agree or ... surprise... use the PCS to arrange the teams how they want them.

Your comments about HB are interesting too. They were really great but I am still puzzling over their two level 4 step sequences.
 
clairecloutier said:
Whole post
Click to expand...

I appreciate the thoughts claire! I hope you had a great time covering Nationals with FSO! :) I saw you in the concourse, but I was too slow to catch you and say hello!

Regarding Chock/Bates, that was probably the most glaring difference I've seen over four years. In 2014, they were FAST and bombastic performers. Even though Chock didn't have the best bladework, they still manage to show a lot of power.

Four years later, they are far less fast and as Claire said, a lot of the power is gone. It was especially striking in the SD, which is why I think they're scoring so poorly (relatively speaking) in that segment.
 
One thing that's nice to see in the aftermath of Nationals is all the love the Shibs are receiving on social media. It's probably exactly what they needed to hear after their disappointing skate and result. I hope they know how much they are beloved around the world and how all of their hard work building their fanbase is paying off through thick and thin.
 
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