The Evolution of Figure Skating

[brennele]

Now that, more and more, FS is evolving into a contest of jumping beans, I find myself wondering whether, in our lifetime, will we see an evolution of figures skating into two separate contests. We have the powermasters such as Chen who can put forth extraordinary numbers of power jumps in a rather impressive manner. Men want to emulate such feats and they are rewarded for their efforts. In the past - and note I emphasize in the past - we had excellent male skaters with breathtaking artistic skills. We also. now, have a master like Hanyu who has both the power to do multiple quads as well as inspiring artistry but this is a very, very rare bird. Hanyu, in my opinion, is a once in a lifetime phenomenon - rare enough that I am not holding my breath waiting for someone else to perform at his level. We are going to see far more Chens in the future than we are ever going to another Hanyu. Worse, once the men get something down pat, it is never far behind that the women can do it, also. Typically in sports requiring physical strength, the men nail it first and before long we see the emergence of women strong enough to do the feat - in this case, we are talking about the quad. We will be seeing women land them in the not too distant future. Most women lack sufficient testosterone to have the muscle strength to pull it off BUT natural testosterone levels are widely variable in women. Someone will have enough natural testosterone to pull it off and she won't look masculine, either. In my own practice, we often draw hormone levels on women for one or another reason. Sometimes I find a woman with significantly above normal levels of natural testosterone and she looks just fine. You need a whole lot of it before it starts to have a virulizing effect on women. We will see woman pulling off quads soon enough.

So will this sport evolve to the point where it breaks off into separate contests? We could conceivable have power skating contests where the men try to outdo one another in how many quads they can pull off and then we can have the traditional men's fs where quads are not permitted and artistic talent gets put back into the mix. A man could compete in both events if he so chose. The way it had become now, any man with a build and body type that does not permit the safe execution of quads is pretty much out of the mix. It has gotten to where either you can pull of multiple quads or else forget about it. At some point, the same thing will apply to the women, once some of them start landing quads. The scoring system rewards this feat and shuts out those who cannot pull it off. Women are eventually going to land these quad jumps; it is just a matter of when.

So does anyone besides me think that someday we may see this sport of FS morphing into two directions - power and artistry? Or, as time goes on, are we going to see the whole thing evolve (devolve?) into a contest of jumping beans - who can pull off the most quads in the shortest period of time and still stay upright on his skates. In another thread, I brought up the point of piston rolls and someone commented - very insightfully - that doing piston rolls does not count as an element yet it tires the quads - never mind that the audience likes them. Do other people think the future may hold a branching off of this sport?

 

[aftershocks]

Hanyu, in my opinion, is a once in a lifetime phenomenon - rare enough that I am not holding my breath waiting for someone else to perform at his level. We are going to see far more Chens in the future than we are ever going to another Hanyu.

Please, take it easy. You sound like you need to be taking some deep breaths in order to calm down with your excessively OTT blanket statements. Hanyu has his unique attributes, and he moves quite similarly to his idol, Johnny Weir, even though Hanyu is more brilliant and hardworking in terms of his technical feats. Nathan Chen has accomplished something that has yet to be effectively matched in terms of his multiple quad feats and successfully landing every available quad except the quad axel in competition. And Nathan has a unique style aesthetically that has yet to be fully developed, as he's only 18-years-old. We are currently in uncharted territory regarding quads and what's going to happen over the next four years is so far up in the air, it may stay there for some time, or it may suddenly land and blow up without notice, possibly before the entire world does. Regardless, it will be some time before the meager handful of figure skating historians will be able to decipher ground zero.

With all due respect, perhaps your comments should be incorporated into one of the Hanyu threads, or into another thread that's already been started about what direction the sport is headed in. And in any case, such discussions about possible scenarios and ways of reworking the competitive structure of the sport are not new on FSU.

as time goes on, are we going to see the whole thing evolve (devolve?) into a contest of jumping beans

It's already a jumping bean contest. Tom Dickson recently stated on TSL, and I agree, that the main focus generally should be advancing blade skills and trying to fully master quads with a more concerted effort generated to combine quads with artistry.

 

[Madhatter]

Please, take it easy. You sound like you need to be taking some deep breaths in order to calm down with your excessively OTT blanket statements. Hanyu has his unique attributes, and he moves quite similarly to his idol, Johnny Weir, even though Hanyu is more brilliant and hardworking in terms of his technical feats. Nathan Chen has accomplished something that has yet to be effectively matched in terms of his multiple quad feats and successfully landing every available quad except the quad axel in competition. And Nathan has a unique style artistically that has yet to be fully developed. We are currently in uncharted territory regarding quads and what's going to happen over the next four years is so far up in the air, it may stay there for some time, or it may suddenly land and blow up without notice, possibly before the entire world does. Regardless, it will be some time before the meager handful of figure skating historians will be able to decipher ground zero.

With all due respect, perhaps your comments should be incorporated into one of the Hanyu threads, or into another thread that's already been started about what direction the sport is headed in.

But Nathan doesn't seem to be interested in developing his "unique style artistically" because he's so focused on quads. What was that about if you wanted to do see artistitry, you should watch ice dance and not Men's skating? His artistry has regressed since last season, and even more so if go further back. It's more of an informed trait than an actual one. And it has paid off: top scoring free skate at the Olympics and rising PCS and the title of Quad King. If you look at Vincent Zhou, he follows the same template. At this moment the system rewards technical difficulty over artistc content, there's not much incentive to work on the latter and Chen and Zhou are prime examples of that. Perhaps Cha or Aliev will be able to add to their quad repertoire without sacrificing the artistry, I don't know. Maybe Jin will work on his components rather than on quads - he's the one that's actually improved from last season (although his FS was atrocious). I hope Chen and company will prove me wrong and will work on their non-quad skills, though, because if they don't the only way to win against them will be upping the tech and abandoning everything else, and it might not be until the now-novices who will change the landscape. Unless judges actually start applying that component score for what's really out there - but I don't think it will happen.

 

[brennele]

But my whole point is whether FS will evolve into two different events for the men. I cannot predict the future but I raise the question of whether we will ever see movement toward two separate events for men. One event would be the athletic prowess of the jumping beans i.e. how many quads the man can pack in over a period of time and one would be more traditional measure of figure skating wherein artistic men can compete on equal footing. The way it stands now, unless you can pack in the quads, it really does not much matter what else you can do in terms of male FS. I am all for men competing with one another on quads and physical prowess if that is what the men want to do. Seems like this sort of thing is always what men want to do anyway. They are aways wanting to one up one another and far be from me to say they should not do so. I am not a man. It is not up to me to say what men should value and admire in one another. What I think does not matter, anyway. What I am asking is whether there is room for men to compete in FS on any other dimension, namely artitistic ability in combination with jumps. I ask whether we might ever see FS evolve into separate events for men or is the future only one wherein he who commands the most quads without falling wins or should we prepare to simply count landing quads in an upright position when determining the winner.

BTW, I am not taking away from Nathan Chen or all the future Nathan Chens of the world who will develop this sort of athleticism. It is fine. I appreciate what he has done as well as the next. What I am asking is whether there is room for men to compete on any other dimension in FS. If one can't do quads and then 6 of them in a row in a program does that mean he cannot or should not compete. Ten years from now, will I turn on the TV to watch the men only find out out that we will be counting the number of quads the man has executed in the SP and FS so as to determine who is the winner? I did not say the men should not do so. I asked whether they should do anything else or is this what is is going to be all about.

As for "gushing" over Hanyu, sorry but I became a big time Hanyu fan after learning more about him. To be perfectly honest with you, it is more his humanitarian and humble nature which sold me on him. Of course I admire Chen and what he can do. I simply admire Hanyu more for not only what he can do but, more , for who he is. What is wrong with that? Are we all not entitled to set up our own value system regarding what we consider important?

 

[aftershocks]

Well @Madhatter if you haven't already, perhaps take a listen to the TSL men's, and ladies (technical & artistic) recaps. The guests offer some sharp and knowledgeable insights worthy of tuning in for.

As I said about Nathan, he's very young. There's no question that he's focused on quads. That's not a mystery. The sport has been sending a message that guys need quads in order to be on the podium, and especially to win. Still, you are exaggerating in trying to assert that Nathan is not paying any attention to artistry or that he's somehow 'regressing' in that area. That assertion is not even worth further rebuttal. Nathan has won throughout his career, often beating guys older than himself. Nathan saw Boyang vault to the podium in his debut senior season with four quads in the fp, including a quad-lutz triple combo. And this happened w/o Boyang even possessing well-rounded talent aesthetically. So what's with all the looking down on younger skaters taking that message and jumping with it? Nathan is a gamer, and he's a champion who would be winning in any era, under any rules and any judging system. He could have chosen ballet or gymnastics over figure skating. He was excellent in all of these disciplines. With the messy way the sport of figure skating is led and judged, perhaps Nathan should have chosen differently.

The refusal by those who don't like Nathan to recognize his artistic sensibilities, and the insistence on knocking him and looking down on his aesthetic talents is to say the least, laughable. I guess you wouldn't know much about his unique qualities though if you haven't followed his career, or are uninterested in doing so. Nathan understands the music and he has a unique way of moving over the ice. The jury's still out regarding how his career will evolve, but except for the outsized Olympic hype-pressure and family interference, Nathan clearly possesses the balls and the talent to have been on the Olympic podium, in any position. During a difficult season, Nathan managed to win every competition he entered, so just because he hit speed bumps in the team event, and in the individual event sp in Pyeongchang does not warrant all the OTT negativity and generalizations.

It's as if a lot of people are blaming Nathan for achieving unheard of quad feats in unexpected fashion. Nope, its TPTB fault for the current state of quad affairs, and the resultant rush to change scoring values yet again so that the judges can maintain an upperhand. Don't go blaming a few gutsy young athletes for seeing the writing on the wall and adhering to it in extraordinary fashion. It's neither here nor there what an 18-year-old said in response to clueless media queries. Why you find it necessary to keep repeating out of context something you heard Nathan say, appears to be in order to justify the way you choose to see him. It's all kinds of laughable how some quad fanatics were cool with the men's quad landscape until Nathan came along loaded for bear, hot after the podium and the judges' hefty quad point values. Now, some former quad fanatics are falling all over themselves to slow things down and look for that 'Art Museum' they previously were trying to dis me about needing to visit.

The old farts running the sport are the ones who continue to put the cart before the horse, and thus consistently seem unable to attach the cart to the horse, much less get out of their own way. Would that they would get out of the sport's way and stop trying to rule with a hammer and broken nails.

Still, I don't see a need for this particular thread. But yeah, as usual, carry on.

 

[brennele]

Aftershocks, Lets be clear about one thing. I do not dislike Nathan and I do admire what he has accomplished. Where do you get the idea I am criticizing him. I simply prefer Hanyu and his approach to both skating and life. What is wrong with that? You choose your value system and I choose mine. I am really big in life on combining skill with humility and more importantly with humanitarianism. Hanyu excells in that arena and so I am going to prefer him. Nothing about that choice means I cannot also respect the Nathan Chens of the world and what he/they have accomplished. I fail to see what exactly is your point?

You wrote "Why you find it necessary to keep repeating out of context something you heard Nathan say, appears to be in order to justify the way you choose to see him." Where the hell did THAT comment come from. I have absolutely no idea what Nathan did or did not say. I never read any quote from him so how could I repeat one?

 

[aftershocks]

Aftershocks, Lets be clear about one thing. I do not dislike Nathan and I do admire what he has accomplished. Where do you get the idea I am criticizing him. I simply prefer Hanyu and his approach to both skating and life. What is wrong with that? You choose your value system and I choose mine. I am really big in life on combining skill with humility and more importantly with humanitarianism. Hanyu excells in that arena and so I am going to prefer him. Nothing about that choice means I cannot also respect the Nathan Chens of the world and what he/they have accomplished. I fail to see what exactly is your point?

You wrote "Why you find it necessary to keep repeating out of context something you heard Nathan say, appears to be in order to justify the way you choose to see him." Where the hell did THAT comment come from. I have absolutely no idea what Nathan did or did not say. I never read any quote from him so how could I repeat one?

In order to make several things 'clear' for you @brennele, I have separated my comments to you from my previous post, which also contained my direct response to Madhatter, which was not directed toward you. Okay?

This was my comment to your #4 post:
^^ Ya know @brennele, regarding your post #4 in this thread, I'm not telling you what to think or who to love. I simply shared with you what I think about this thread and your original post, which does not mean you need to change how you feel about any skater. As I said, these 'what direction' conversations about the sport are not new. Such bated breath conversations simply tend to ratchet up at times like this, post-Olympics and during a transitional period in advance of the next quad (LOL, 'next quad' in more ways than one). You should take a listen to Doug Haw and Tom Dickson in the recent TSL podcasts. OTOH, it seems to me that your questioning is more reflective of your anxiety about Nathan's multiple quads than anything else. Even Nathan is not right now able to go for broke with multiple quads every time out over an entire season. Like I said, take it easy. We are in entirely new territory. But fasten your seatbelts, because the ISU conductors driving this train are highly unreliable, and thus we are seemingly in for one nightmarish, bumpy ride.

Maybe it would be helpful if you read the entire thread that you started, in order to better follow the commentary?

... If one can't do quads and then 6 of them in a row in a program does that mean he cannot or should not compete

Okay, please allow me to ask a similar rhetorical question. IMO the question you posed seems rather fruitless and cluelessly 'Nathan-centric'. Why not direct such questions to the ISU and wait for an eternity to ever receive an answer?

Here's the copycat question that your query inspires:
If one can't be a 'once in a lifetime phenomenon' like Hanyu, does that mean one cannot or should not compete?

Hanyu's remarkable achievements stand on their own. Seemingly his fans maybe should be able to allow all fans of fs some time to reflect back upon the Olympics and Hanyu's achievements, and just enjoy and be happy, at least for a few weeks. But no, the dust hasn't settled yet before some of us are anticipating the next opportunity to look back in short-sighted fashion at what happened five minutes ago. Or, are bent on bungee-jumping into thinking about future scenarios for which there aren't any definitive road maps at the moment.

 

[brennele]

Aftershocks, Well I am glad you clarified your post. I could not for the life of me get why you were alluding to Nathan quotations which I had allegedly taken out of context. I like your creation of the word - "Nathen-centric" - pretty intelligent and clever, if I must say so. There were, indeed, "Nathan-elements" about my commentary but they were not necessarily "Nathan-critical." For whatever reason you seem to not want to talk about this subject. I am not sure why but it is none of my business. As far as approaching the ISU, change does not happen in that manner. It is more of a grass-roots kind of thing wherein people look at, talk about and analyze various phenomenon and then (sometimes) a ground-swell builds. I am willing to bet that the ISU is talking about this very topic, at least informally over dinner and coffee. It is never too soon to analyze and think about change. Remember "adapt or perish" governs the earth. It is the very reason why you and I are even here in the first place talking to one another.

Now let's get on to your rhetorical question. I have to start out by saying it is non-analogous to my question. One can not define what is a "once in a lifetime phenomenon" without competing. Competition is necessary for the very definition, no? You have introduced a non-sequitur into the discussion. Let's look at something else, as long as you and I are addressing this issue. The ISU has made a variety of changes throughout the years and always in response to something or somethings which happened. These events which triggered changes had not previously occurred so no one thought about them. Recall the Zayak rule which limited the number of times a jump could be repeated. Then, there was the Katarina rule which addressed the way women could dress for competition. there was also a rule introduced after the Harding broken lace debacle which is on the books as well. There is a rule in ice dancing which says that the man cannot lift the woman over his head. No doubt there was a reason for that rule although I don't know what it is. There have been plenty of rules introduced on an as-needed basis. No one ever did 5-6 jumps in a single program before so no one had the opportunity to contemplate the impact of doing so would have on the sport. Things come under scrutiny as the need evolves.

I don't like the trend where men will be increasingly shut out of the sport for lack of the ability to perform quads, esp where this ability is rooted in body type. As we watch these quad programs - Nathan-centric types to use your terminology - are we missing something? You tell me? Do we want to only watch the men jump? It is starting to move in that direction. The major league baseball teams have this thing called homerun derbies to give men the opportunity to compete with one another in this arena. Maybe we need jumping contests so the testosterone-pumped males can compete with one another in this dramatic macho way - as they ever love to do. When they are finished with it all and they have definitively established who is the official macho "quad-king" - king of the mountain as it were - then maybe they all can get back to skating so as to entertain the rest of us. Sort of like, "OK, guys, you all settled that now come back and skate your SP and FS." Perhaps a rule allowing only one quad per skating program might be the way to go. Sort of a male version of the Zayack rule. You can do as many quads as you like BUT you only get credit for one per program.

Here is something I find disturbing and perhaps you can comment on it. Tara announced (rightly or wrongly) that a failed quad attempt has the same point value as a perfectly executed triple. Wow! Think about that. So if someone goes out there and does 6 failed quads in his program - falling down on every single one of them - he gets the SAME point value as a person who does 6 perfectly executed triples? Of course, I am assuming that what Tara said is correct. If what she said is true, such is exactly what it means. It would be worth everyone's while to attempt quads even if it means falling every single time and even if it means ignoring other FS skills. You get the equivalent of a perfectly executed triple just for trying it. Wow! Men's figure skating may well be going off in the wrong direction and it could get worse. The time to start talking about possible solutions is before the problem gets too much more out of hand. We SHOULD talk about things. When we don't face issues, they often get so out of hand that they turn around and nail us big time later on. Finally, once again, your coining the term "nathen-centric" is really great. I love it!

 

[aftershocks]

Well I am glad you clarified your post. I could not for the life of me get why you were alluding to Nathan quotations which I had allegedly taken out of context.

Maybe everything would have become crystal had you actually read through and understood everything posted in the thread you started. I simply separately re-posted the same comments I had initially directed to you, in order to help you out. But it looks like it only set fuel to your fire, or more aptly, to your ire.

I am willing to bet that the ISU is talking about this very topic, at least informally over dinner and coffee.

Ya think!

Now let's get on to your rhetorical question. I have to start out by saying it is non-analogous to my question.

Actually, there is no 'getting on to' rhetorical questions, by their very nature and definition. Since the rhetorical question I threw out was inspired by your own, and was constructed with most of your own words from a previous post, it is indeed astutely if mystifyingly analogous, whether you concede that it is or not.

I don't like the trend where men will be increasingly shut out of the sport for lack of the ability to perform quads,

Uh huh, well why don't you take out a full page ad in The NYTimes addressed to the ISU. Maybe ISU honchos will have an opportunity to check it out sometime over 'dinner and coffee,' or mayhap breakfast and eggs, or possibly biscuits and tea?

... are we missing something? You tell me? Do we want to only watch the men jump? It is starting to move in that direction.

I think you are the one who needs to tell your own self whatever it is you need to hear, and set about finding whatever you speculate is missing, by yourself... Meanwhile, check out Figure Skating: A History, by James R. Hines for more detailed background on the history of jump acrobatics in figure skating. I hate to have to break it to you, but men jumping quads has been happening in figure skating for longer than five minutes ago. Again, you need to consult with the ISU if you are worried about 'quad' directions.

The major league baseball teams have this thing called homerun derbies to give men the opportunity to compete with one another in this arena. Maybe we need jumping contests so the testosterone-pumped males can compete with one another in this dramatic macho way

There are a lot of things the ISU might learn from baseball, but how to implement jumping contests is not among any of the enlightening possibilities. In fact, there are jumping contests that have been taking place in figure skating. You should bone up more on your knowledge of what happens during the off-season.

Here is something I find disturbing and perhaps you can comment on it. Tara announced (rightly or wrongly) that a failed quad attempt has the same point value as a perfectly executed triple. Wow! Think about that.

Nope, I think you need to DM Tara herself. And then maybe take a breather from all the over-thinking you are doing.

We SHOULD talk about things. When we don't face issues, they often get so out of hand that they turn around and nail us big time later on.

Right. That's very true, but we aren't part of the ISU coffee claque, so we have no control over their decisionmaking. If you wish to talk to the ISU PTB, starting this thread on FSU is a waste of your time. You seem to know a lot about having 'things often get so out of hand that they turn around and nail you big time.' Why not write a book on the subject instead? That would probably be more lucrative than cluelessly butting heads in nonsensical fashion on FSU. Hmmm, and maybe I should follow that particular bit of advice too, come to think of it.

... your coining the term "nathen-centric" is really great. I love it!

His name is spelled 'Nathan', btw, with a capital 'N'. Wow, you managed to mention Nathan and 'love' in back-to-back sentences, albeit with a spelling error.

For whatever reason you seem to not want to talk about this subject.

Maybe because all the air was sucked out of this thread before you started it. And you are doing a fine enough job talking about it all by yourself, regardless. I fell prey to your over-excitement and I responded mainly to point out, as I already did earlier, that much of what you've brought up is being discussed in other current threads, or has been discussed ad nauseam over the years in endless threads. Check the archives. The situation you seem frenetically over-excited about will not be solved by this point in any of our lifetimes.

 

[MAXSwagg]

@brennele you do not have to apologize. You are completely correct that Hanyu is at least a once in a generation skater.

I read a statement elsewhere that I think sums up Nathan very well: really, the only extraordinary thing about Nathan is the QUANTITY of quads he does (which is also very admirable). He rarely lands any of his jumps with what I would deem "high quality". Is he talented? Yes. Is he as good as those three were at 18/19? Fernandez, maybe; Chan/Hanyu? No way. Is he as good as Fernandez/Chan/Hanyu are now? No way. Can he get there? Maybe.

Really, when you look at the other skaters from his generation, he doesn't (didn't, since they are both MIA) have better skating skills than Pitkeev and Yamamoto did (those two were clearly the top of that group), his spins are generally centered well with great speed but pretty average positions and the camel position needs much work, imo. And, of course, there are minimal transitions but that only seems to be a crime if you're Chinese. The hyped up perceptions of him is ultimately what led to his downfall, yet many continue to do it. Everyone has their biases but there are things that aren't that debatable. Just let him develop!

 

[aftershocks]

Ahhh, Hanyu-addicts UNITE! You've found yet another thread in which to pat yourselves, and back-to-back OGM winner Hanyu, on the back.

Cheers!

 

[brennele]

aftershocks - things DO get addressed when people talk about them. So much pessimism on your part. I bet the issues I have raised DO get addressed in the future. Why take such a defeatist attitude, as you have outlined. The ISU is composed of people who presumably care about FS - why would you assume that they will not make changes when problems arise. They have done so in the past. Why would they not do so in the future. They also can act rather quickly when they want to. As for contacting the ISU, it is far more fun to pick your mind and draw out the information I seek.

here is what you said: Nope, I think you need to DM Tara herself. And then maybe take a breather from all the over-thinking you are doing.

First of all, what does "DM" mean. Secondly, Tara would not answer any inquiries from me but YOU would - hee, hee. So tell me if what Tara said is correct. Is it true, that a failed quad attempt is the same point-wise as a perfectly executed triple?

Over-thinking, you say? "Over-thinking" has brought me much success in life. Why would I ever give it up? The more we "think" and analyze possible scenarios in life, the better decisions we can make. The more one can analyze the dynamics governing a given paradign and then hone in on the key elements, the more he can tailor it and manipulate the variables to bring about a successful outcome. Give that up? Never. It brings about too many rewards. I am ever amazed at how many people tell you to "get out of your head." These are always the same people who later ask you 'How did you do that?" "How did you know that?" or "How did you pull that off?" It is simple. I was "in my head" and I figured it out.

As far as this board goes - it is just a chance to take a break from work and spar with someone like you. Learn a few things along the way. Forums, in case you have not already figured this out, have nothing to do with the "real world." There is nothing "real" about any of them. They are just a place to take a break, blow off some steam and learn a few things in the process. I hope your mood improves. You seem a bit "down" to me, as the saying goes. Actually, truth be told, you seem VERY down to me. I hope whatever it is, that it gets better for you. If I can help, let me know.

 

[brennele]

Max, Thank you. We can take joy in someone like Hanyu. Life is full of things which bring us joy - nature abounds with them. Hanyu is yet another such source of joy. Hanyu attitude, work ethic and performance can bring a source of joy to anybody. These are qualities I value and Hanyu reminds me to ever strive for them. I may not know as much about FS as many here but I know an outstanding skater and an outstanding performance when I see one. Hanyu performance was airy like a breeze yet masterful in the elements he executed. It was, in short, inspiring.

 

[DreamSkates]

No. ISU will continue to tweak the system and try to make improvements toward balanced skating.

 

[brennele]

Dream, Absolutely they will. I have confidence in them. It may take a while but things will tend to improve over time. Tweaking is a good word. Systems need to be tweaked from time to time. Nothing is static. Everything is dynamic.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Also, I anticipate a plateauing of numbers of quad jumps and there will be a steady-state from now through 2022, with a slight decrease in numbers after 2022...

 

[aftershocks]

@brennele and @MAXSwagg, have fun with your party hearty and overdone multiple quad anxiety now that Hanyu vs Javi got a little crowded at the top.

And in fact that 'family' rivalry is over and done with altogether. Javi finally got his Olympic medal even with popping his third quad, so he's said that he's done with Worlds and Olympics, but he may compete again at Euros. At least there the competition is not quite as quad-challenging. Therefore, a smoother trip to top of the podium for Javi. I'm happy for Javi medaling in Pyeongchang, and it's too bad the color wasn't silver or gold.

 

[leolion11]

Ahhh, Hanyu-addicts UNITE! You've found yet another thread in which to pat yourselves, and back-to-back OGM winner Hanyu, on the back.

Cheers!

Tbh do you have to be so condescending? I think the other commentators have made some valid points regarding skaters who've foregone artistry/choreography in favour of landing more quads, and I don't think that necessarily means they're saying all that merely to hype up Yuzuru's skating or excessively criticise Nathan.

Iirc, I think Nathan did forego some of the choreography in his olympic FS in favour of concentrating on landing his quads. Although his FS was honestly very impressive technically, I do think it sheds a negative light on Nathan's mentality regarding artistry and technical difficulty. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to seeing Nathan improving over the next quad, like Boyang has been doing over the past few seasons. He already moves in quite an aesthetic way (e.g. I really like his arm movements as compared to Yuzuru's ) but I think he just needs to pay more attention to other aspects of his skating and creating more balanced programs.

He really does have a lot of potential to become a well-rounded skater if he continues working on his artistry/skating skills etc. now that he's seemingly maxed out in terms of quads. Will be excited to see what he comes up with next season!

 

[brennele]

Aftershocks, If I had my way, the ISU would permit ONE quad in each of the SP and FS in terms of garnering points for credit. Obviously, anyone can do as many as he wishes but he gets credit for only one in each program. If he does more, they count as triples. Doing so would open the field to more players and would end the "quad king" insanity where we go for sheer numbers in the absence of a quality FS. I would also do away with this business of where just attempting a quad and falling being the same point value as a perfectly executed triple - assuming what Tara said is correct. Such nonsense. If this is true why bother perfecting triples - just go out and try quads and if you fall, no big deal. You get full triple credit for it. Such a change, as I propose, would accomplish several things

1. Reward those men who can do a quad and do it right
2. Protect skaters from injuring their bodies in "quad madness" where they try to outdo one another
3. Open the playing field to more men not just those born with the right body type
4. Make the men's event more enjoyable to watch. Not everyone prefers a jumping bean contest

Of course, I am not in charge of the ISU but if such a change every does come about, you heard it here first.

 

[aftershocks]

Tbh do you have to be so condescending? I think the other commentators have made some valid points regarding skaters who've foregone artistry/choreography in favour of landing more quads, and I don't think that necessarily means they're saying all that merely to hype up Yuzuru's skating or excessively criticise Nathan.

Iirc, I think Nathan did forego some of the choreography in his olympic FS in favour of concentrating on landing his quads. Although his FS was honestly very impressive technically, I do think it sheds a negative light on Nathan's mentality regarding artistry and technical difficulty. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to seeing Nathan improving over the next quad, like Boyang has been doing over the past few seasons. He already moves in quite an aesthetic way (e.g. I really like his arm movements as compared to Yuzuru's ) but I think he just needs to pay more attention to other aspects of his skating and creating more balanced programs.

He really does have a lot of potential to become a well-rounded skater if he continues working on his artistry/skating skills etc. now that he's seemingly maxed out in terms of quads. Will be excited to see what he comes up with next season!

More rhetorical questions, eh! To each their own perceptions, and mine do not have to match yours and vice versa. The 'foregoing of artistry in favor of quads' discussion is overdone by this point, and there's really nothing left to say on that 'taking sides for faves' non-debate. Quads by their very nature complicate the time and ability available for skaters to focus on artistic interpretation. Even Hanyu's artistic focus is uneven and up-and-down in his performances. This thread is obviously started as yet another opportunity to worship at the altar of Hanyu and to fret about the specter of Nathan Chen and his multiple quads somehow threatening fave Hanyu's spotlight, which is a baseless, OTT worry or else a trollish sh*t-storm.

Two quads in a fp and the attempting of Tim Goebel pioneered three quads and Jin Boyang pioneered four quads (with messy performances or not) were fine and dandy until Nathan Chen came along and showed that it's humanly possible to land 5 quads cleanly in multiple competitions, and even to go for 6 quads. That's too much for the ISU and Hanyu fans, apparently.

Nathan Chen is already a well-rounded young skater, who is still maturing and growing into his own. Nathan's Shae-Lynn Bourne choreographed Nemesis sp is one of the best men's sps ever. It's a shame that Nathan was unable to skate it cleanly at the Olympics in front of a worldwide audience. If you haven't followed Nathan's career since he was a novice and a junior, then you are talking off the top of your head. And anyone who can't see Nathan's musicality and his unique movement qualities, is just whistling dixie, for whatever reason.

But yeah, this thread was not created to discuss Nathan's attributes.

ETA:
Ah @brennele, why weren't you concerned about the quad phenomenon a long time ago? You should have been contacting the ISU well before Nathan Chen came along and landed five quads because he could, and because that's what the ISU has been over-rewarding since 2010 - 2011 season.

 

[leolion11]

Yuzuru was mentioned in the opening paragraph a few times as an example of a well-rounded skater with the rest of the post being about 'the evolution of figure skating' as mentioned in the title, but you decide to go off about how the poster started this thread to worship Yuzuru while you take every opportunity to gush about Nathan yourself and create long defensive posts in response to the slightest criticism about Nathan's skating? Sounds legit.

No one's downplaying his technical achievements - we all agree that landing 6 quads in a program is an impressive technical feat. The only thing we're doing is pointing out the gaps in his skating aside from the quads and wondering if his ability to gain high scores (due to a high technical score) would translate into an even bigger trend of unbalanced programs where the focus is unevenly placed on quads, which is not an unreasonable debate.

Btw, by well-rounded skater, I mean good skating skills/transitions/speed/everything else. It's not just musicality and "unique movement qualities". I bet even Nathan himself knows the gaps in his own skating and I'm very confident that he will be working on it to improve himself in the face of more competitors over the next quad.

But anyway it's a pointless debate with you so

 

[brennele]

aftershock, Leolion is 100% correct. YOU chose to make this thread about Nathan vs Hanyu. No one here, and least of all me, is anti-Nathan. Everyone wants to see him develop and succeed but that does not mean that people cannot be overjoyed that Hanyu just broke a 66 year old record as well as skated a breath-taking performance. This accomplishment is a very big deal; it is nothing to sneeze about. I am sorry you cannot celebrate such joy with us.

The best thing that could ever happen to Nathan is a rule such as the one I proposed wherein quads were limited to one per program SP or FS. It would force him to develop more artistic qualities to his skating and move him forward. He would become a better skater were such a rule in place.

To answer your last very sarcastic question concerning why I was not concerned about this matter previously, it is because I have a life and a busy one at that. I did not even see the 2014 Olympics at all because of work pressures. I had too many patients to deal with at at that time for any TV watching and I hate to break this to you but they come first. Not only do they come first but their welfare matters to me more than skating by literally light years. Now my schedule has eased up considerably because I am semi-retired at this point so my workload has gone way down. I have some time to watch figure skating although not unlimited time because I am still working a busy schedule. Work comes first over leisure activities - always has and always will. My husband comes first in my life; my work comes next and everything else trails behind. Sometimes work gets so hectic that I have to put off things I would like to do with my husband but thankfully he understands.

Your snide comments about Hanyu come across as very sour grapes. We who admire him have a right to celebrate his astonishing achievements. No one has put Nathan down and no one but you has made this whole discussion about Hanyu vs Nathan. It was never about that topic.

 

[misskarne]

Most women lack sufficient testosterone to have the muscle strength to pull it off BUT natural testosterone levels are widely variable in women. Someone will have enough natural testosterone to pull it off and she won't look masculine, either. In my own practice, we often draw hormone levels on women for one or another reason. Sometimes I find a woman with significantly above normal levels of natural testosterone and she looks just fine.

Um, ew paragraph. Just ew.

 

[Vash01]

I love it when skaters push them technically and i live it when they develop artistically. It is the balance that has made thus unique. Right now the pendulum has swung too far in favor of quads, particularly the number of quads. So i think at some point the tide will turn and return to balance between athleticism and artistry. I woukdnt like to go back to just one quad per program, That is regress, athletically. I think what Hanyu had in his LP was ideal. Three quads in the LP can produce plenty if athleticism while maintaing artistry. That may even inclue a quad axel in the future. It us exciting when skaters challenge themselves.

So my answer ti the original question is- I dont think the sport will be split into the two sports the OP suggested. At some point it will return to the balance between athleticism and artistry.

However, i am not against creating a new Olympic sport that focuses on jumps only, without music. I know most FS fans will Scream in protest, but imo that will be the place to truly appreciate the athleticism involved in jumps.

However, the best use of the skills is in combining athleticism with artistry, skated to music, with musical interpretation. I think this will survive. The pendulum will swing back. I don't know if that will happen before 2022 though. That seems awfully close.

I would also like to see figures back as a separate Sport. Basic skills are essential to creating artistry. It will good to have those rewarded, instead of being anpart if the subjectivity we often see in the PCS marks.

 

[brennele]

Vash01 - one way the 'skate jumping" might not stray too far from FS is if there were a requirement that the men who participated needed to also participate in the other FS competitions. If it is just a separate jumping competition then it might slip away from FS and become an isolated activity like speed skating. I am not sure how we are going to handle the women who will inevitably scream sexism and that it is so "unfair" if we have quad competitions. I am not too excited about the prospect of watching them compete with one another doing triples. Such is not quite the point. There is plenty of room for the ladies to be athletic via doing triple jumps within their SP and FS. They are not doing quads as of this time so I don't see any huge need for them to have athletic jumping contests but, trust me, they will be screaming "sexism!" soon enough.

The problem with allowing three quads, as Hanyu pulled off so beautifully, is that doing so essentially shifts the competition in FS to one wherein only those men who can do quads can compete. With one quad allowed, there is still room for a non-quad person to compete and even medal. When you allow 3 quads only those men who can do quads will be able to effectively compete. Recall, not every has the body type to do quads so it is not strictly an issue of athleticism. It becomes a combination of athleticism and genetics, the latter of which one has absolutely no control over. One is either born with the body type which can execute a quad or he is not. It is not something one can work toward developing, if he does not have the right genetics. When you allow one quad per program, you still reward those who can do it but you don't shut out everyone else. A person who can masterfully perform triples can still compete with the person who performs quads in a competition where only one quad is allowed. With three quads permitted , there is absolutely no way the non-quad-capable person can compete. It becomes mathematically impossible. The really skilled people like Hanyu can do a quad triple combo, or as you point out, a quad axle (yikes) and will thus still maintain the competitive edge and those. The person who can execute a quad- triple - a move which is, in fact, artistically beautiful - will get more points than the person who performs the quad along and later the triple alone.

This business of competing to see who can be the "quad king" i.e. do the most number of them in a given period of time probably needs its own venue. I see no reason why they can't have music - heavy metals is probably what most of them would choose but they would be free to pick whatever they want. I can see someone crafting a program with the finale of the Tsychovsky's 1812 Overature doing quads in sync with the canon booms. Now THAT would be something to see, eh? The video of something like that would probably go viral.

 

[Vash01]

Vash01 - one way the 'skate jumping" might not stray too far from FS is if there were a requirement that the men who participated needed to also participate in the other FS competitions. If it is just a separate jumping competition then it might slip away from FS and become an isolated activity like speed skating. I am not sure how we are going to handle the women who will inevitably scream sexism and that it is so "unfair" if we have quad competitions. I am not too excited about the prospect of watching them compete with one another doing triples. Such is not quite the point. There is plenty of room for the ladies to be athletic via doing triple jumps within their SP and FS. They are not doing quads as of this time so I don't see any huge need for them to have athletic jumping contests but, trust me, they will be screaming "sexism!" soon enough.

The problem with allowing three quads, as Hanyu pulled off so beautifully, is that doing so essentially shifts the competition in FS to one wherein only those men who can do quads can compete. With one quad allowed, there is still room for a non-quad person to compete and even medal. When you allow 3 quads only those men who can do quads will be able to effectively compete. Recall, not every has the body type to do quads so it is not strictly an issue of athleticism. It becomes a combination of athleticism and genetics, the latter of which one has absolutely no control over. One is either born with the body type which can execute a quad or he is not. It is not something one can work toward developing, if he does not have the right genetics. When you allow one quad per program, you still reward those who can do it but you don't shut out everyone else. A person who can masterfully perform triples can still compete with the person who performs quads in a competition where only one quad is allowed. With three quads permitted , there is absolutely no way the non-quad-capable person can compete. It becomes mathematically impossible. The really skilled people like Hanyu can do a quad triple combo, or as you point out, a quad axle (yikes) and will thus still maintain the competitive edge and those. The person who can execute a quad- triple - a move which is, in fact, artistically beautiful - will get more points than the person who performs the quad along and later the triple alone.

This business of competing to see who can be the "quad king" i.e. do the most number of them in a given period of time probably needs its own venue. I see no reason why they can't have music - heavy metals is probably what most of them would choose but they would be free to pick whatever they want. I can see someone crafting a program with the finale of the Tsychovsky's 1812 Overature doing quads in sync with the canon booms. Now THAT would be something to see, eh? The video of something like that would probably go viral.

Since FS is a sport (as well as art), the difficulty should be epncouraged. Quad is the most difficult thing now. There was a time when 3A was the most difficult jump. Those who didn't have it, could not reach the top. Now it is the quad.

Among ladies, once upon a time those who couldn't do the double axel could not be competitive. Later those without triple jumps, later those without a triple lutz, and then those without a 3-3 combination could not get to the top,

A sport evolves with time. I don't want to see that stopped. I just don't want to see the jumps alone determine the winner.

 

[brennele]

Vash01, Certainly you make valid points and express them well. It seems, however, that quads alone will determine the winner but the problem is that quads require a certain body type which is under genetic control. None of the other jumps are that restrictive. We have reached a point where physics is now in control of this sport's future. Now there is a valid argument for your side, as well. As it stands now, basketball players must have a certain body type which is under genetic control and, for that matter, a given body type required to be a football linebacker so there is precedence for your position. Many men, my husband for example, like to watch women's basketball because there is more traditional shooting of the ball into the basket vs simply jumping up and putting it there i.e. dunking the ball. Actually, he likes to watch both men and women's basketball but he will tell you that different skills are involved. I am more and more losing interest in the sport as greater and greater emphasis is placed on jumping. I remember when there was much more involved. My mother will be 96 next month and she is now living with me since the fall. She also remembers when skating was more artistic. She said to me repeated during the last Olypmics, as we watched the skaters together "all they are doing is gliding around and jumping." It is fine to evolve and you make valid points, for sure, but I am not convinced that this particular evolution will do FS a world of good. We will have to wait and see. I am not convinced we will like the end result. The way it is now 5-6 quad jumps will outrank - pointwise - everything else. A mediocre skater in terms of technique and style will be guaranteed a win once the points are added up. A master like Hanyu, whose skating can take your breath away, will fall short on total points as compared to someone who can simply execute and then land a large number of quad jumps but not offer much else as he performs an otherwise comparatively boring program.

 

[Madhatter]

Well @Madhatter if you haven't already, perhaps take a listen to the TSL men's, and ladies (technical & artistic) recaps. The guests offer some sharp and knowledgeable insights worthy of tuning in for.

As I said about Nathan, he's very young. There's no question that he's focused on quads. That's not a mystery. The sport has been sending a message that guys need quads in order to be on the podium, and especially to win. Still, you are exaggerating in trying to assert that Nathan is not paying any attention to artistry or that he's somehow 'regressing' in that area. That assertion is not even worth further rebuttal. Nathan has won throughout his career, often beating guys older than himself. Nathan saw Boyang vault to the podium in his debut senior season with four quads in the fp, including a quad-lutz triple combo. And this happened w/o Boyang even possessing well-rounded talent aesthetically. So what's with all the looking down on younger skaters taking that message and jumping with it? Nathan is a gamer, and he's a champion who would be winning in any era, under any rules and any judging system. He could have chosen ballet or gymnastics over figure skating. He was excellent in all of these disciplines. With the messy way the sport of figure skating is led and judged, perhaps Nathan should have chosen differently.

The refusal by those who don't like Nathan to recognize his artistic sensibilities, and the insistence on knocking him and looking down on his aesthetic talents is to say the least, laughable. I guess you wouldn't know much about his unique qualities though if you haven't followed his career, or are uninterested in doing so. Nathan understands the music and he has a unique way of moving over the ice. The jury's still out regarding how his career will evolve, but except for the outsized Olympic hype-pressure and family interference, Nathan clearly possesses the balls and the talent to have been on the Olympic podium, in any position. During a difficult season, Nathan managed to win every competition he entered, so just because he hit speed bumps in the team event, and in the individual event sp in Pyeongchang does not warrant all the OTT negativity and generalizations.

It's as if a lot of people are blaming Nathan for achieving unheard of quad feats in unexpected fashion. Nope, its TPTB fault for the current state of quad affairs, and the resultant rush to change scoring values yet again so that the judges can maintain an upperhand. Don't go blaming a few gutsy young athletes for seeing the writing on the wall and adhering to it in extraordinary fashion. It's neither here nor there what an 18-year-old said in response to clueless media queries. Why you find it necessary to keep repeating out of context something you heard Nathan say, appears to be in order to justify the way you choose to see him. It's all kinds of laughable how some quad fanatics were cool with the men's quad landscape until Nathan came along loaded for bear, hot after the podium and the judges' hefty quad point values. Now, some former quad fanatics are falling all over themselves to slow things down and look for that 'Art Museum' they previously were trying to dis me about needing to visit.

The old farts running the sport are the ones who continue to put the cart before the horse, and thus consistently seem unable to attach the cart to the horse, much less get out of their own way. Would that they would get out of the sport's way and stop trying to rule with a hammer and broken nails.

Still, I don't see a need for this particular thread. But yeah, as usual, carry on.

Lol, recommending TSL to me probably has the opposite effect from intended. Since 90% of what they say is BS, I gave up on them years ago. Other than that... uhhh, sorry not sorry, but to me those who can't see how Nathan's artistry has taken a blow recently are just blind. :shrug:


Going back to the substance of the matter: haven't there been rummors of an artistic and technical programs? I believe one of the ISU head honchos mentioned the possibility so yep, apparently they do discuss it.

I was torn about the idea when I first heard it because if it appears, it might replace SP and FS, but wasn't that the original intent of SP and FS anyway? But I do love a well-balanced program, so I'd be sad to let them go. However, expanding the length of SP and giving skaters more opportunity to show off their jumps and making TES count more while putting limitations on FS and making PCS count more might work.

But I would love it if the technical and artistic programs were introduced was in addition to the SP and FS. The rules for SP and FS would probably get changed but I would love it if they became about balance.

One thing that I think would need to be done is rising the medal count. The technical and the artistic programs would certainly need thir own medals.

 

[brennele]

I mentioned this concept in the other thread which deals with this issue but perhaps it bears repeating now. Back in the early 1980s - when I was alive and well following FS - people were worried about what Zayac was doing much the way they are now worried about Nathan's quads. Zayac was planning to put 7 triples in her LP and the powers that be were out of their gourd with dismay. Sound familiar? They wanted female skaters to be "fairy princesses" and doing 7 triples just did not fit the mold. They sought to put a stop to this sort of athleticism in women and the whole thing backfired. The women morphed into athletic creatures anyway and arguably the rule made them more so. Now they could do a variety of challenging elements and plenty of them, to boot. Moreever, women in the population of FS fans were on Zayak's side and largely very negatively inclined toward the ISU and/or other authorities who whey felt were treating Zayak very unfairly. They resented the imposed concepts of how women should or should not be. We were not interested in a body of judges defining how we should or should not be and we certainly were not interested in someone imposing his or her "fairly princess" model on women - skaters or otherwise. For that reason many were not big fans of Sumner and not esp unhappy when she did not garner the gold.

There are many parallels now to the current situation wherein people are once again concerned about whether putting in large numbers of quads will change the character of FS. Many question whether making more rules will be advisable or even accomplish its intended purpose. Based on history, I would have to say, these folks have a very valid point. Perhaps micromanagement is not the way to go and it certainly did not work with the whole Zayak thing. I have mixed feelings on the subject. I see validity to both sides on this issue.

 

[Seerek]

Say hello to the Zagitova Rule - thoughts?