Someday could a skater ever be considered best ever without an Olympic Gold

[savchenkoboss]

Currently the consensus best ever in each discipline- Gordeeva & Grinkov or Shen & Zhao in the pairs, Yu Na Kim, Katarina Witt, or Sonja Henie in the ladies, Hanyu or Dick Button in the mens, and Torvill & Dean, Gritshuk & Plato, or Virtue & Moir in ice dance all have Olympic Gold. In fact most have multiple Oly Golds, and those who dont have a OGM plus atleast 1 other medal. So currently and probably all the years prior to now there is no real example. However someday could a skater who fails to win Olympic Gold have a record and impact so astounding in all other ways they are most people's pick as best ever even without the Oly Gold medal? Or is this unrealistic to ever happen.

 

[Sylvia]

Someday? I think it's already happened.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Someday? I think it's already happened.

Was there a point in the 60s or 70s a skater without the Olympic Gold was the consensus best ever? I wasn't alive then so I guess it is possible. It hasn't happened since I started following in the late 80s though.

 

[savchenkoboss]

And if you are thinking of Papadakis & Cizeron I think that is mainly just their crazy ubers, some who are almost as bad as the V&M ubers, and FAR from a widespread opinion. I love them to death and they are incredible and special but still need more time to ascend to the largely regarded best ever, with or without the Olympic Gold.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I agree, I would not call PapCiz the best ever at this point. I would consider them one of the best even at this juncture in their careers, but people forget they are so young. They have time.

The only skaters who can be considered one of the greats without Olympic gold better have either multiple World golds or a long-lasting legacy. Or both. Patrick does not have singles Olympic gold but he is of course one of the best ever. Same for Aliona and Robin, and Mao (the only woman thus far in recent years to have three world titles, plus one she was arguably robbed of).

 

[savchenkoboss]

I agree, I would not call PapCiz the best ever at this point. I would consider them one of the best even at this juncture in their careers, but people forget they are so young. They have time.

The only skaters who can be considered one of the greats without Olympic gold better have either multiple World golds or a long-lasting legacy. Or both. Patrick does not have singles Olympic gold but he is of course one of the best ever. Same for Aliona and Robin, and Mao (the only woman thus far in recent years to have three world titles).

I agree there are a few who are considered one of the best ever without Olympic Gold. Those 3 skaters/teams you named for sure. Kurt Browning, Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, for sure, maybe even Brian Orser, Toller Cranston, Michelle Kwan, and Stephane Lambiel. I just mean a skater without Olympic Gold being considered THE best ever by at least 40-45% of the public and many of the experts/ex skaters. Is that possible.

Come to think of it I could see P&C maybe be the first if they dominate the next 2 or 3 seasons. If they are 6 time World Champs, the first ever for dance, a lot might rank them best ever even before the 2022 Games. Which would probably make them the first ever to be a consensus type GOAT without the OGM.

 

[blue_idealist]

Well, there are a lot of people who consider Kwan the best ever. I'm not sure what percentage it would be.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Well, there are a lot of people who consider Kwan the best ever. I'm not sure what percentage it would be.

Well consensus would have to mean more than anyone else. There are probably some who pick her, at least some in the U.S, and a few in Canada. Worldwide I am pretty sure there are more people that pick Yu Na Kim for best ever than her. In Europe anyway more would still pick Witt and/or Henie than Kwan. So I wouldn't say she qualifies as the consensus GOAT.

Janet Lynn at one point like 20 or 30 years ago might have been a good choice. Worlds in France one year there was a riot when she didn't medal, and when she returned to Japan, site of her Olympic Bronze, she was a rock star.

 

[screech]

The Canadian men at one time or another in their careers were considered the best (or at least among the best) - Kurt, Brian, Elvis, Patrick...
Many still think of Kurt as the best ever.
Many still think of Patrick as having the best skating skills ever, and as the best 'skater' ever

Outside the Canadian men, a lot of people look at Michelle Kwan as the best ever.

It also depends on what makes the 'best'. A lot of people look at the Swiss as the best spinners ever (Stephane, Lucinda). Sasha Cohen as the best spiral ever. Midori Ito or Tonya Harding as the best female jumpers ever...

I personally don't think there's really a best 'ever', because the sport is ever evolving. I could rank skaters the best of certain eras, but not 'of all time'.

 

[cbd1235]

I consider Kwan the best ever.

 

[savchenkoboss]

The Canadian men at one time or another in their careers were considered the best (or at least among the best) - Kurt, Brian, Elvis, Patrick...
Many still think of Kurt as the best ever.
Many still think of Patrick as having the best skating skills ever, and as the best 'skater' ever

Outside the Canadian men, a lot of people look at Michelle Kwan as the best ever.

It also depends on what makes the 'best'. A lot of people look at the Swiss as the best spinners ever (Stephane, Lucinda). Sasha Cohen as the best spiral ever. Midori Ito or Tonya Harding as the best female jumpers ever...

I personally don't think there's really a best 'ever', because the sport is ever evolving. I could rank skaters the best of certain eras, but 'of all time'.

Oh I agree, I don't like the best ever tag too. I am thrilled skating isn't as obsessed over it as say tennis or football. However it is reality many including commentators will still talk about it.

As for Kurt I think it would be similar to Kwan. Many in his own country might pick him as best ever, although today most of even those might have switched to Chan, but anywhere else definitely not the top consensus GOAT choice.

If Patrick had a much stronger comeback and built more on his already incredible career/legacy there might be many more non Canadians who pick him best ever even if he didn't win singles gold, but as is not likely. Especially with Hanyu's 2nd Olympic Gold. Anyway he now has Oly Gold so technically doesn't qualify even if is the consensus best ever choice.

Elvis is a legend but outside of Canada and maybe the U.S he isn't that liked, especially post retirement. I think Brian and Tiller are both looked at far more positively today despite winning less medals.

 

[attyfan]

IMO, the concept of "best ever" is simply too fluid to exclude those without an OGM ... for example, is the "best ever" someone who has invented or introduced moves or someone who can do the most difficult moves? I'm also not sure how big a role popular recognition should play in determining the best ever, since many people (at least in the US) think any skater they have heard of, other than Tonya Harding, must be an OGM -- Kwan is often spoken of as a two time OGM, for this reason.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I consider Kwan the best ever.

And I consider Bourne & Kratz the best dance team ever. And I consider Savchenko & Massot the best pair ever after their triple of incredible performances at GPF, Olympics, Worlds. And I consider Lambiel the best mens skater ever for his artistry, spins, musicality, and choreography. I mean the person in each discipline most or more people consider the best ever which definitely isn't Lambiel, Kwan, S&M, or B&K despite our personal opinions. Hundreds of skaters probably have someone who picks them as best ever, I even saw a Wing & Lowe video on YouTube where a poster called them the best dance team ever, but who realistically might be the consensus choice.

 

[Marco]

I guess it depends on how one defines "best ever". Is longevity / dominance included or is it momentary? Is it just the hardware? Or is the skating performance itself more important?

Winning the Olympics means winning the biggest competition there is every four years, but it's one competition. Winning multiple world championships means winning the biggest competition there is within those four years more than once - more about sustaining a high level for longer.

For example, I would certainly regard Michelle Kwan higher than say Sarah Hughes on the best ever list. And winning the OGM (team) does not alter my (already) high regard for Patrick Chan one single bit.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I guess it depends on how one defines "best ever". Is longevity / dominance included or is it momentary? Is it just the hardware? Or is the skating performance itself more important?

Winning the Olympics means winning the biggest competition there is every four years, but it's one competition. Winning multiple world championships means winning the biggest competition there is within those four years more than once - more about sustaining a high level for longer.

For example, I would certainly regard Michelle Kwan higher than say Sarah Hughes on the best ever list. And winning the OGM (team) does not alter my (already) high regard for Patrick Chan one single bit.

Yeah Olympic Gold alone cannot make a great. Hughes is no great. Neither is Sotnitkova. Nor Lysacek. Agree there.

However if Chan had won an individual (not team) gold, especially with a command performance I would guess you would rate him higher than whatever you currently do. And even if I am wrong for sure most people would. Like say replace his 3 stumble silver skate in Sochi with a magnificent gold one like his 2013 Bompard one. That alone would elevate him further and with his best ever skating skills, 3 straight world titles, longevity, and team Olympic medals might have a lot of people pick him the best ever, maybe even the consensus one. Now, great skater and true legend, best ever skating skills probably as I said, but for those who like to pick a best ever probably only some Canadians and that is it. With Olympic singles Gold added, especially with a great skate, that drastically changes.

 

[Marco]

Yeah Olympic Gold alone cannot make a great. Hughes is no great. Neither is Sotnitkova. Nor Lysacek. Agree there.

However if Chan had won an individual (not team) gold, especially with a command performance I would guess you would rate him higher than whatever you currently do. And even if I am wrong for sure most people would. Like say replace his 3 stumble silver skate in Sochi with a magnificent gold one like his 2013 Bompard one. That alone would elevate him further and with his best ever skating skills, 3 straight world titles, longevity, and team Olympic medals

I already rate him as my best.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I already rate him as my best.

Fair enough. I think many more would rate him best too though rather than just one of the best had he aced Sochi and won with one of his best ever skates there.

 

[MAXSwagg]

You also have to look more closely at the results, considering Chan should not have won 2012 Worlds (there is a consensus on that).

 

[savchenkoboss]

You also have to look more closely at the results, considering Chan should not have won 2012 Worlds (there is a consensus on that).

I thought it was 2013.

 

[jamesy]

10 You
9 Can’t
8 Rank
7 Best
6 Ever
5 Because
4 They’re
3 All
2 Great
1 Michelle Kwan

 

[giselle23]

Certainly, Michelle is the best of the 6.0 era. I think Kurt Browning ranks up there among the best men. No one has his mastery of the blades. Janet Lynn was the best free skater of the figures era. Midori Ito is the best ladies jumper, even to this day. On the other hand, there are many Olympic champions who are not in the running for the best ever: Sarah Hughes, Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski (her career was too short), Trixi Schuba (best at figures, though), Adelina Sotnikova, others, probably. I am not as familiar with men's skating over the years, but I'm sure some OGM winners do not qualify as among the best.

 

[giselle23]

Currently the consensus best ever in each discipline- Gordeeva & Grinkov or Shen & Zhao in the pairs, Yu Na Kim, Katarina Witt, or Sonja Henie in the ladies, Hanyu or Dick Button in the mens, and Torvill & Dean, Gritshuk & Plato, or Virtue & Moir in ice dance all have Olympic Gold. In fact most have multiple Oly Golds, and those who dont have a OGM plus atleast 1 other medal. So currently and probably all the years prior to now there is no real example. However someday could a skater who fails to win Olympic Gold have a record and impact so astounding in all other ways they are most people's pick as best ever even without the Oly Gold medal? Or is this unrealistic to ever happen.

I don't think there's a consensus on any of those you mention.

 

[VGThuy]

I think one could argue Kwan was the best ladies skater in the 6.0, post-figures era. In ladies skating, I don't think there's a consensus GOAT. There have been too many premier ladies who made their mark and contributed to the history of the sport. Some choices will differ depending on age, generation, geographic location, context of the difficulty of the competition, what one admires in a skater, etc.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don't think there's a consensus on any of those you mention.

Not even Gordeeva & Grinkov? I thought they were closest to a universal slam dunk, even today. And T&D atleast until V&M making a strong case recently too.

 

[berthesghost]

I know it’s the off season but can we just be honest that GOAT serves no other purpose than a discussion starter.
As for consensus: I’d say the skating community has a consensus that there is no such thing as GOAT. Same for the media. Generally they say things like “the great Russian pairs like the Protopopovs, rodnina and partners and g&g” with no effort to label one as greater than the others.

 

[briancoogaert]

I think Gordeeva&Grinkov have qualities that no one ever matched.
So have Janet Lynn, John Curry...

 

[giselle23]

Not even Gordeeva & Grinkov? I thought they were closest to a universal slam dunk, even today. And T&D atleast until V&M making a strong case recently too.

The fact that you list both T&D and V&M indicates there is no consensus. If there is consensus, it would be for Torvill & Dean only. And some (many?) would argue for the Protopopovs for pairs.

 

[Marco]

Fair enough. I think many more would rate him best too though rather than just one of the best had he aced Sochi and won with one of his best ever skates there.

He skated so beautifully at the French GP during Sochi season. And many times before that. He just didn't do it at the biggest competition of the quad, but he showed that he was capable of it. On and off across a 2 to 3 quad span. That's my point. So many skaters were able to show such beautiful skating and it doesn't matter to me whether they did it at Nationals or a GP or the Olympics.

The fact that Patrick and Michelle perhaps couldn't quite do their best at the Olympics compared to earlier in the season or normal Worlds was more reflective of their competitiveness rather than their skating ability.

And how do these skaters' performances stand the test of times? I find myself rewatching Patrick and Michelle, and even Maria and Stephane('s better performances) all the time and not really Evan or Evgeny or Tara or Oksana or Adelina, or even Irina / Miki. That says a lot. Someone can deserve to win a competition but still be not as good a skater than the skaers that s/he beat.

 

[manhn]

Not sure why names like Sarah Hughes or Evan Lysacek or Adelina are being mentioned. They are not GOAT? OMG, what?!?!?

I am pretty sure other skaters have won the Olympics who might have a better claim to the title. The initial post did not ask whether every Olympic champ is better than all non Olympic champs.

Anyways, yes. You need to win the Olympics to be deemed GOAT. Some of my favourite skaters have never won it. My life has been so hard because of it. I will cry like an English soccer fan.

 

[Marco]

I will cry like an English soccer fan.

There there. You guys should be proud to have come so far.