Skate Canada Replaces "Mohawk" and "Choctaw" In Its Terminology

gkelly

Well-Known Member
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15,994
If the ISU decides to officially change the names, I hope they choose something better than letters of the alphabet.
It's about the shape of the letter. S-step is pretty descriptive of the shape of the actual step -- I can't think of anything that would be better. Maybe "S turn step" or "S step turn" to indicate that involves both changing direction (forward vs. backward) and changing foot at the same time as changing curve.

C-step is less intuitive because, at least in freeskating, the curves tend to be shallower than a letter C. (And also, at least at first, there's the confusion of the letter C being the initial of the old name of the other related turn type.) But maybe call it something like "curve turn step" or "curve step turn" . . . which might eventually end up getting shortened to C turn step or C step.
 
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Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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17,659
Maybe 2foot 3 turn? LOL

Honestly, I've been watching skating a long time but I have very little first hand skating experience. I know what the various jumps, spins and spin entrances are, but steps are usually a mystery beyond 3 turns and twizzles.

The name "S step" has done more to help me me learn and identify a choctaw in 5 minutes than decades of watching skating. Choctaws have been included in various OD, Rhythm Dances, etc for years, but the dancers were always doing so much more with their bodies that it was hard to figure it out. It's an S pattern with a change of foot and direction in the middle of it. That's easy.
 

gkelly

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Maybe 2foot 3 turn? LOL
Well, beginners do learn to do actual three turns on both feet when learning them for the first time. (And it's also possible to do brackets, rockers, and counters with both feet on the ice as well, to learn the turn action without needing to control the balance on the blade so precisely.)

Maybe change-foot three turn?

For inside mohawks only. Outside mohawks, on the other hand, would be change-foot brackets.
 

Blair

Active Member
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109
Lots of things have gone under name revisions. We’ve all gotten used to it and sometimes the change is for the better.

I’d like to see some more outrage at how often arenas get renamed by corporate sponsors. In my lifetime, the local nhl arena has had 5 names. I’m still confused which corporate brand I should be referring to.
 
S

SmallFairy

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I agree the steps should get proper names when renamed, not just a letter. @gkelly have good suggestions. Yay for the name change!
 

gkelly

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15,994
I agree the steps should get proper names when renamed, not just a letter. @gkelly have good suggestions. Yay for the name change!
So do you have a problem with three turns having a name that is just a number?

Again, the name comes from the shape of the turn and the shape of the numeral and has nothing to do with the quantity that the number refers to.
 

Tinami Amori

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20,157
The Russians were never marginalized by North America. You can argue against America’s interventionists polices but this is nowhere near the same thing as the mass slaughter and displacement that Native American tribes were put through. Native Americans are under-represented in America in very distinct way and coupled with this historical genocide comparing to political cartoons against Russians is ridiculous. That is why appropriating Native American culture is especially wrong.
As far as i know, the word "marginalize" means to "diminish in value", "to make inferior" and "to put down" not "mass slaughter and displacement", and while the later regretfully took place, i was responding to the term "marginalized"... :)

But that's not how those natives see it. And in this case, it's their perspective that counts, not ours.
Nowhere in Skate Canada's note (in the original post on page 1) did it say "at request of native tribes". It was clearly Skate Canada's initiative to just be "politically correct somehow". I would absolutely respect the decision if it was a wish of the natives, but that's not what it appears to be the reason for change.
 

Alilou

Ubercavorter
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As far as i know, the word "marginalize" means to "diminish in value", "to make inferior" and "to put down" not "mass slaughter and displacement", and while the later regretfully took place, i was responding to the term "marginalized"... :)


Nowhere in Skate Canada's note (in the original post on page 1) did it say "at request of native tribes". It was clearly Skate Canada's initiative to just be "politically correct somehow". I would absolutely respect the decision if it was a wish of the natives, but that's not what it appears to be the reason for change.
Yeah well the Russians were never marginalized in their own country the way the North American indigenous people were.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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49,150
A 3turn is called that, as has been mentioned, because of the shape it has on the ice. To call other turns <something> 3-turn when they don't make a 3 on the ice doesn't make sense to me. We can do it like spins - where there can be up to 4 or 5 words in the name -- but I think the choctaw should be called the S turn, the same as a 3 turn. The mohawk has a ton of variations so you can get into things like outside, change foot turn and inside change foot turn.
 

Tinami Amori

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20,157
Yeah well the Russians were never marginalized in their own country the way the North American indigenous people were.
By North Americans, no they were not. But Tataro-Mongols conquered and marginalized them for 300+ years, and yet now Mongolia uses Cyrillic alphabet and Russian language has many tatar words, not to mention a Olympic Champion of Tatar origin ... :).

If natives feel offended by the use of their terms in figure skating, then by all means change. But i have yet to read that it was a request from the natives.
 

Jammers

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7,234
This is right up there with the Washington Redskins now being called the Washington football team. They couldn't even come up with a new damn name for the team? Morons.
 

Blair

Active Member
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109
By North Americans, no they were not. But Tataro-Mongols conquered and marginalized them for 300+ years, and yet now Mongolia uses Cyrillic alphabet and Russian language has many tatar words, not to mention a Olympic Champion of Tatar origin ... :).

If natives feel offended by the use of their terms in figure skating, then by all means change. But i have yet to read that it was a request from the natives.
There are thousands of indigenous First Nations in North America. They don’t operate as a unit nor do they all have the same interests, issues or concerns.
You don’t get it. Now stop.
 

jenny12

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7,825
This is not true. The Russian people were taken over and subjugated by Mongols for 200 years

God. Yes, let’s all go back to talk about a 13th century invasion when Native Americans are still being put through the effects of displacement today. This comparison is offensive and ridiculous.

Anyway, the subject is marginalization by America so let’s stop pretending the Russians are the victims.
 

Tinami Amori

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20,157
This is right up there with the Washington Redskins now being called the Washington football team. They couldn't even come up with a new damn name for the team? Morons.
I am not following american football, but even i was wondering why did they not change it to Washington Redshirts. Although after reading EVERY adventure book by Fenimore Cooper as a child, even as an adult i associates "redskins" with strength, bravery, endurance, strong warrior, excellent horse-rider, inventive, survivolist, and many other positive qualities. I thought this name for an am-football team was out of appreciation for such qualities......
 

barbarafan

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5,089
I am confused because those aren't derogatory terms as far as I know. Are they and I just wasn't aware of it?
I am totally confused. So ballet elements are in French. Should all of these be translated worldwide to each countries language. If Asher & other black , brown PPL or Asians etc have had circumstances where they were treated badly or were insulted due to race it should be reported and the coaches should be suspended. Period. If volunteers at rinks do the same they need to be reported and no longer be a part of the rink's volunteers. Signs should be put up at all rinks as you walk in that there is zero tolerance for racism at that rink. Anyone exhibiting racism will be banned from the rink. And stick to it.
 

Hanna

Skating junkie
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30,906
I wrote a little piece on this topic. Would love to hear criticism on this explanation:
I would just like to thank you for writing this piece and trying to shed light on the topic for more people. :) Google translated it to English very well, I think.

Many of the ones questioning this decision in this very thread would probably find some answers by reading what you wrote. :)
 

skateboy

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7,788
I'm failing to see how the names of these skating steps are an insult to members of the Mohawk and Choctaw tribes. If anything, it seems to be more of a tribute... at least from where I sit.
 

DreamSkates

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3,002
I'm failing to see how the names of these skating steps are an insult to members of the Mohawk and Choctaw tribes. If anything, it seems to be more of a tribute... at least from where I sit.
Because they are not relevant to the names of the indigenous tribes. Not to mention neither of the tribes were into figure skating.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
32,997

I'm failing to see how the names of these skating steps are an insult to members of the Mohawk and Choctaw tribes. If anything, it seems to be more of a tribute... at least from where I sit.
The Skate Guard blog that's linked earlier has a very good explanation of this. The names originated in Britain from a time when First Nations were seen as uncivilized savages, and specifically from live theatre that showed "authentic" First Nations dances that were anything but authentic.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
32,997
I am totally confused. So ballet elements are in French. Should all of these be translated worldwide to each countries language.
That's not the same thing at all. French names for ballet steps are not based on the names of communities that were destroyed and oppressed, or communities who had names "given" to them by their oppressors.
If Asher & other black , brown PPL or Asians etc have had circumstances where they were treated badly or were insulted due to race it should be reported and the coaches should be suspended. Period. If volunteers at rinks do the same they need to be reported and no longer be a part of the rink's volunteers. Signs should be put up at all rinks as you walk in that there is zero tolerance for racism at that rink. Anyone exhibiting racism will be banned from the rink. And stick to it.

They have reported it, and not very much has happened. I agree that Skate Canada could do a whole lot better in this area, but that doesn't mean they can't also make changes like this one.
 

skateboy

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7,788
The Skate Guard blog that's linked earlier has a very good explanation of this. The names originated in Britain from a time when First Nations were seen as uncivilized savages, and specifically from live theatre that showed "authentic" First Nations dances that were anything but authentic.
Thank you for telling me. I didn't know.

I actually like "C turn" and "S turn," as they are a more correct description of the actual turns.
 

divan

Well-Known Member
Messages
28
I would just like to thank you for writing this piece and trying to shed light on the topic for more people. :) Google translated it to English very well, I think.
Thank you! Article is written in three languages - English, Ukrainian and Russian (correct version should be shown automatically depending on your browser's lang settings or can be switched in a menu)
 
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