Shibutanis thread 3: Evolution

It looks like they got low GOEs too. H/D had a better score with their twizzles? I haven't seen either program yet, but what's that all about?
 
Wow, the scores between the teams ranked#2 to 9 are very close. I haven't watched any of the performances yet but I hope the Shibs can nail their free dance and move up.
 
And why their protocol says Deduction : Violation of choreography restrictions: (1 of 10) ???:confused:

eta. thanks to Tulosai from goldenskate : It just means one of the judges pushed the button indicating they saw a violation. May have been a mistake by that judge or may have been for any random reason at all. It doesn't matter unless at least 5 judges press the button.
 
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I wasn't able to watch this morning (thanks Icenetwork) but what happened? Didn't someone say the other day that Maia had food poisoning or was sick?
 
I think the Shibs can definitely move up in the FD if they skate the same way they skated at 4CC or even better. I don't think a bronze is out-of-reach at all.

I'm gonna say a real truth bomb here and I'm only saying this because I truly believe Maia and Alex have what it takes to be a solid no. 1 team in the world. I do think this is should serve as a wake-up call to them. They probably were content going into Worlds as a solid no. 3 bronze medal favorite who may sneak in for a World silver. Now that's not happening it looks like. They doubled down on their precise, detailed-oriented skating, but what they should have been doing is skating more on the edge and pushing the difficulty of the in-betweens. They still could have kept the same programs but they both need to do more in them (that's why so many of us reacted so positively when they added a bit more at 4CC FD). I just watched Hubbell/Donohue's SD and they do a lot of choreography and move their bodies in ways that I think dancers should. We all know Chock/Bates do that as well. Maia and Alex before last season seemed more like great skaters than actual dancers and they really improved upon that, but I think this was the season where they should have pushed it more since they were welcomed back by the judges. They also really need to get much more glide. I do think their skating skills and depth of edge and precision is among the world's best, but they need to really improve on getting more ice coverage with less stroking so they can do more choreography and highlight moves.

With that said, I think as of right now, they are strong bronze medal contenders, but I think with their steadily rising PCS and GOEs from 2015 to now, they need to do even more to crack that ceiling and start competing against the likes of a clean P/C and maybe a clean V/M. They aren't there right now but rather are taking advantage of when V/M and P/C lose levels or don't execute all the way. I think out of all the American teams, the Shibs do have the most potential, but I also think they have the most untapped potential even now. Maia is still young at 22 but she won't be one of the youngest female top contenders forever and it's time she work on things to be even more flexible and even more extroverted just because this is ice dance and people think they should really dance out more. If Alex can get a Michael Parsons-like extension or somewhere closer, that would also be great and needed.
 
Firedancer said:
I wasn't able to watch this morning (thanks Icenetwork) but what happened? Didn't someone say the other day that Maia had food poisoning or was sick?
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No, she was sick at 4cc. No visible mistakes but 1 L2 and L3

The good news is that with H/D at 3rd place, now we know that nothing is written in stone in ice dance (except V/M winning everything:shuffle:)
 
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^^ I agree with almost all of your post @VIETgrlTerifa, although I'll be honest and say that I think Hubbell/Donohue are equal to the Shibs in ultimate potential, or perhaps even have more. But, everything else you said, I agree with. You describe very well all the technical areas where the Shibs need to improve. I think for me, the foremost thing that needs to get better is their glide. There is still that brief hesitation as they transition from one move into the next. I don't know how else to describe it. Those little tiny hesitations or breaks all add up and are the difference between them and V/M or P/C. (What P/C are so good at is that they have hardly any of those little hestitations or breaks.) I wish I could describe this in a better way. Improving their glide & flow and skating with abandon are their big challenges I think.

But the Shibs have really developed their programs so much this season and have turned them into something special, so I want to give credit where credit is due. They are great, it's just a question of how they do they become even better.
 
DDNatalia said:
Thought they skated extremely well. Polished and attacked. The crowd response, a standing ovation, was very strong for them.

On to the Free Dance!
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After the sadness over the SD score I didn't even notice that they got a standing ovation. At least they're still crowd favorites.
 
I cant help wondering if their attention is too divided with the creative control they've been exerting. Personally, I would rather see them pick and trust a choreographer, and focus on the skating. Maybe it's not an either/or, but we heard so much about their involvement with musicians and dancers and I'm not sure the programs justify all that effort. I would rather they stick with Tchernyshev, or Miyamoto, or Camerlengo if he would cross rink lines, and dig for the speed and emotion that make people watch over and over.
 
I would love it if the Shibs worked with Miyamoto or even Camerlengo with Marina's input in fine-turning the programs for "primetime".
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
I do think their skating skills and depth of edge and precision is among the world's best, but they need to really improve on getting more ice coverage with less stroking so they can do more choreography and highlight moves.
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That's a skating skills issue, and I'm not sure Marina's camp is the best place to correct it. It's sort of like how we know Marina and Igor were never good at teaching CDs, and I believe that's what ultimately started dragging V/M down. Not that CDs were competed, but rather that V/M started skating inefficiently, and it wasn't corrected. We can see now V/M's speed, power, and glide are vastly different than in 2014. I believe that is because Patrice in particular focuses on that aspect of skating.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa said:
After the sadness over the SD score I didn't even notice that they got a standing ovation. At least they're still crowd favorites.
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And in the immediate aftermath of an unexpected and obviously disappointing short term result, from a single skate, there seems to much hang wringing. I don't, get it.

Maia and Alex have been by far the most consistent US ice dance competitors for the past 18 months. Going back to Skate Canada, they have NOT made any mistakes. The US teams have fallen during programs or botched entire elements (just to mention a few, H/D GPF 2015 Zach fell, 2017 US Nationals Hubbell fell, Several swizzle errors from C/B e.g., 2015 GPF from Chock, 2016 Nepela and 2016 Cup of Russia from Bates.)

Today, they skated a strong performance. It was this technical panel however that gave a level 2 and level 3 on footwork, which cost 3 points of base value vs. H/D and 1.5 points vs. C/B. Even a level 3 Partial step sequence would have had them all tied. The levels they achieved at both GPFinal and Four continents would have put them 2nd!

AFTER the results, one could "see" and comment, but before and during? It's a performance sport and a competition. During the competition, pay attention to the audience response for H/D actually. Not convinced the audience thought they were "on fire." The technical panel gave them level 4 footwork, and that was 1.5 points above everyone except for V/M.

It is all very close and thus exciting. The Free dance is still coming up. They have consistently performed well and scored well, with the difference in their scores more than the 1.5-2.0 points needed to pull up to the bronze. I am confident that Maia and Alex's experience as strong and consistent competitors will serve them well.

Deciding that some fundamentally different approach to their choreography needs to be changed or was a "mistake" somehow because of 1 or 2 level calls seems so absurd. (It's like when after one disappointing result, Uber fans decide something is really "wrong" and a coaching change must need to be made. So rash. So fickle.) Should every skater just sit there with mouths partly open, waiting to be given choreography by some long in the tooth skating inside, and not use their own brains to make it their own? The best idea is to skate to some unrelated combinations of 2 songs just because they meet very criteria, regardless of theme or effort to create some cohesive whole? (which is much more difficult in my opinion). The approach that Maia and Alex are taking is what has made them who they are in this sport, and I think their efforts are very worthwhile and differentiating.
 
I just don't want them to be so dependent on a caller who may give them lower levels than what they've been getting for most of the season. I want them to be in a position where they'll still score and place high even if they receive a lower call like some other teams can afford.
 
Spun Silver said:
I cant help wondering if their attention is too divided with the creative control they've been exerting. Personally, I would rather see them pick and trust a choreographer, and focus on the skating. Maybe it's not an either/or, but we heard so much about their involvement with musicians and dancers and I'm not sure the programs justify all that effort. I would rather they stick with Tchernyshev, or Miyamoto, or Camerlengo if he would cross rink lines, and dig for the speed and emotion that make people watch over and over.
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Definitely disagree. Their SD was choreographically a masterpiece IMO. The issue was in the execution.
 
DDNatalia said:
And in the immediate aftermath of an unexpected and obviously disappointing short term result, from a single skate, there seems to much hang wringing. I don't, get it.

Maia and Alex have been by far the most consistent US ice dance competitors for the past 18 months. Going back to Skate Canada, they have NOT made any mistakes. The US teams have fallen during programs or botched entire elements (just to mention a few, H/D GPF 2015 Zach fell, 2017 US Nationals Hubbell fell, Several swizzle errors from C/B e.g., 2015 GPF from Chock, 2016 Nepela and 2016 Cup of Russia from Bates.)

Today, they skated a strong performance. It was this technical panel however that gave a level 2 and level 3 on footwork, which cost 3 points of base value vs. H/D and 1.5 points vs. C/B. Even a level 3 Partial step sequence would have had them all tied. The levels they achieved at both GPFinal and Four continents would have put them 2nd!

AFTER the results, one could "see" and comment, but before and during? It's a performance sport and a competition. During the competition, pay attention to the audience response for H/D actually. Not convinced the audience thought they were "on fire." The technical panel gave them level 4 footwork, and that was 1.5 points above everyone except for V/M.

It is all very close and thus exciting. The Free dance is still coming up. They have consistently performed well and scored well, with the difference in their scores more than the 1.5-2.0 points needed to pull up to the bronze. I am confident that Maia and Alex's experience as strong and consistent competitors will serve them well.

Deciding that some fundamentally different approach to their choreography needs to be changed or was a "mistake" somehow because of 1 or 2 level calls seems so absurd. (It's like when after one disappointing result, Uber fans decide something is really "wrong" and a coaching change must need to be made. So rash. So fickle.) Should every skater just sit there with mouths partly open, waiting to be given choreography by some long in the tooth skating inside, and not use their own brains to make it their own? The best idea is to skate to some unrelated combinations of 2 songs just because they meet very criteria, regardless of theme or effort to create some cohesive whole? (which is much more difficult in my opinion). The approach that Maia and Alex are taking is what has made them who they are in this sport, and I think their efforts are very worthwhile and differentiating.
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Great points. Any critique I'm making is from a place of wanting to see Maia and Alex be considered one of the top teams who can actually battle for gold and silver rather than be considered as a team that is in the tier below, and I think they have the goods to do it. It's about pushing themselves even further than before and doing the extra mile and minimizing what people can criticize them for.

I've said before and I still say that a lot of the criticisms of their skating would be minimized if they just skated faster and with more freedom. If they did that, they have more space to add more transitions and dance and can easier and more seamlessly link their elements.
 
Spun Silver said:
I cant help wondering if their attention is too divided with the creative control they've been exerting. Personally, I would rather see them pick and trust a choreographer, and focus on the skating. Maybe it's not an either/or, but we heard so much about their involvement with musicians and dancers and I'm not sure the programs justify all that effort. I would rather they stick with Tchernyshev, or Miyamoto, or Camerlengo if he would cross rink lines, and dig for the speed and emotion that make people watch over and over.
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After read and see everything they do, I thought the same like you. To V/M and C/B their coaches even gave them the music of their FD and they are scored very well. The Shibs are too much involved in everything, but when you see their interviews, you realize that they spend the same amount of hours training on the ice and off the ice than the other top teams, I think they are sacrificing their free time, free time is very important too, but not too much for the results.
Their FD is a mastepiece IMO, definitely their FD is not inferior to that of P/C and V/M, it is not so crowd friendly but I think Maia and Alex gave themselves a chance to make a program for them this season, they had that music for years and they were waiting the appropiate moment to use it. I am sure next season they will chose something more attractive to the masses.

So, yes, they could just sit in front of Marina and Massimo and receive music, choreo and everything else, but I think they might lose the motivation to work.
 
Spun Silver said:
I cant help wondering if their attention is too divided with the creative control they've been exerting. Personally, I would rather see them pick and trust a choreographer, and focus on the skating. Maybe it's not an either/or, but we heard so much about their involvement with musicians and dancers and I'm not sure the programs justify all that effort. I would rather they stick with Tchernyshev, or Miyamoto, or Camerlengo if he would cross rink lines, and dig for the speed and emotion that make people watch over and over.
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I said this before the season started when we were hearing about all their music editing. I'm sure its more fun to be involved in everything and if they are fine with not getting the top spot, great. But most gold medalists have a singular drive, and their skills aren't so top notch that they can afford to forgo that drive.
 
I think it's that drive that made them be so involved. Plus the issue is them not getting the level in the SD that they received at the GPF and 4CC. Sure they work even harder to be closer to the level of the top 2, but I wouldn't say whatever deficiencies they have is due to a lack of drive. I mean do the teams that placed below them and they have beaten all season are any less driven even though they weren't as involved with creating their music?
 
snoopy said:
I said this before the season started when we were hearing about all their music editing. I'm sure its more fun to be involved in everything and if they are fine with not getting the top spot, great. But most gold medalists have a singular drive, and their skills aren't so top notch that they can afford to forgo that drive.
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Right... but even though they have said they are aiming for the top spot, I dont know how many fans think there is any shot of that unless other teams blow it. (After the ladies short today, I realize how possible that is!) It is their getting pushed off the podium by another US team that I am concerned about, because neither HD nor CB have been stagnating. I guess tomorrow will tell the tale. But at worst, it will be close and a big loss will only light a fire under Maia and Alex to make changes.

Eta: I want to add, contra what some are say, that getting choreography is not, or need not be, a passive process. I dont know why anyone would think that "Fix You" is something Tchernyshev just thought up by himself and handed to them to passively perform. Any more than "Notre Dame" (my favorite DW FD) was something Meryl and Charlie passively received.
 
DDNatalia said:
Maia and Alex have been by far the most consistent US ice dance competitors for the past 18 months. Going back to Skate Canada, they have NOT made any mistakes. The US teams have fallen during programs or botched entire elements
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Arguably, other US dance teams have made more mistakes because they have taken more risks. The Shibs have skated very open programs to slower tempo music. This has worked well for them, because the trend in ice dance judging has been to reward cleanliness. But maybe they have gone as far as they can with this strategy. Trends and judges' expectations can change and the Shibutanis may need to push themselves to skate bigger and with more abandon.
 
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