Shibutani Return for Olympic Season

[On My Own]

I just keep reading more arguments supporting removing ice dance from the Olympics.

It shouldn't be part of it, and it should never have been. It's barely a sport.

 

[Willin]

I just keep reading more arguments supporting removing ice dance from the Olympics.

I think the level of politics involved is certainly a good argument for why it shouldn't be there... As much as people are wondering why I emphasize their disconnection from the ice dance community, it's naïve to think it doesn't affect things - and that's a pretty good reason it's less of a sport than singles where you can have skaters like Alysa Liu make a comeback and win their first worlds solely by what they put on the ice.

Dance is a whole 'nother level - everything is scrutinized on a political level. You need to be full glam and competition dress on every practice session (many teams straight up wear old competition dresses). Scores jump and fall by virtue of your coaching situation (the immediate point jump after moving to IAM isn't the 10+ points it once was, but still exists). Your famous skating coach parent can score you brownie points regardless of your actual talent (Diana Davis, Annabelle Morozov). Your GOE heavily depends on how long you've waited to get said GOE - and can be more reflective of past scores than what you put on the ice in that particular competition. Etc. Etc.

 

[VGThuy]

It shouldn't be part of it, and it should never have been. It's barely a sport.

I loved it so much, but it’s just ridiculous.

I think the level of politics involved is certainly a good argument for why it shouldn't be there... As much as people are wondering why I emphasize their disconnection from the ice dance community, it's naïve to think it doesn't affect things - and that's a pretty good reason it's less of a sport than singles where you can have skaters like Alysa Liu make a comeback and win their first worlds solely by what they put on the ice.

Dance is a whole 'nother level - everything is scrutinized on a political level. You need to be full glam and competition dress on every practice session (many teams straight up wear old competition dresses). Scores jump and fall by virtue of your coaching situation (the immediate point jump after moving to IAM isn't the 10+ points it once was, but still exists). Your famous skating coach parent can score you brownie points regardless of your actual talent (Diana Davis, Annabelle Morozov). Your GOE heavily depends on how long you've waited to get said GOE - and can be more reflective of past scores than what you put on the ice in that particular competition. Etc. Etc.

I’m curious, what do you expect to see from them with everything you have in consideration?

 

[Debbie S]

But also, let's remember James/Radford, after not competing for a while (in Eric's case 4 full seasons), not only were a brand new team but they were on the World podium in their first year together. No one knows how this is going to go. There's no 'precedent' in the past to tell us how it will, either.

Well, to be fair, they finished 12th at the Olys and the post-Oly Worlds field was a bit depleted. But they did skate well at Worlds.

I think Brian had a knee injury in 1994?

The Shibs are training with Marina and she is based in FL. I assume they will be living there full-time and not in L.A.?

But yes, Marina (or Igor) is not the political powerhouse she once was. But does that matter domestically?

 

[MacMadame]

I think Brian had a knee injury in 1994?

Yeah and later on it was healed and he skated much better.

 

[Lanie]

As someone who's done dance - for fun - imo it absolutely is a sport. Feckin killed me and I only tried to learn the Dutch Waltz but my rink pulled it because I was legit the only person who was doing the classes and I was way too short This was in high school and college in the LA area... I knew nowhere that had anything dance-related...

 

[VGThuy]

As someone who's done dance - for fun - imo it absolutely is a sport. Feckin killed me and I only tried to learn the Dutch Waltz but my rink pulled it because I was legit the only person who was doing the classes and I was way too short This was in high school and college in the LA area... I knew nowhere that had anything dance-related...

It’s definitely a sport. It’s just the judging, the scoring system, the attitudes, and needing to be part of the in-crowd and follow the formula or be shunned that makes it illegitimate.

 

[tony]

Dance is a whole 'nother level - everything is scrutinized on a political level. You need to be full glam and competition dress on every practice session (many teams straight up wear old competition dresses). Scores jump and fall by virtue of your coaching situation (the immediate point jump after moving to IAM isn't the 10+ points it once was, but still exists). Your famous skating coach parent can score you brownie points regardless of your actual talent (Diana Davis, Annabelle Morozov). Your GOE heavily depends on how long you've waited to get said GOE - and can be more reflective of past scores than what you put on the ice in that particular competition. Etc. Etc.

You don't say.

I'm going to repeat out here what I said during Worlds: I had a talk with a very highly-esteemed ice dance committee member at Worlds, and I was questioning why a certain top team kept getting +3 and +4 for elements that were +1 at best and explained why with the criteria for those elements, and I was told, word for word: "Well that score makes sense, but if you do that, you wouldn't be on a panel ever again".

From someone I met less than 5 minutes earlier.

 

[On My Own]

As someone who's done dance - for fun - imo it absolutely is a sport. Feckin killed me

I felt tired doing traditional dance and it "killed me", and I'd never call it a sport. There are many technical difficult things that are physically taxing, and should never be sport.

All that, and the lower than a 5 year old's level of musicality nearly 100% of ice dancers display on the regular. So I'd say it's not even as hard as real dance.

 

[manhn]

Whether ice dance is a sport or not is whatever, but just because it’s hard doesn’t make it a sport. Lots of things are hard. Doing puzzles can be hard. Doing my taxes is hard. I her annoyed when fans defend skating by HOW HARD IT IS.

 

[VGThuy]

I go with the dictionary definition, well, one of them:

Sport is a form of physical activity or game. Often competitive and organized, sports use, maintain, or improve physical ability and skills. They also provide enjoyment to participants and, in some cases, entertainment to spectators.

the above excerpt is from Wikipedia but cites two different sources, which you all can check out if you want.

I believe not all sports can be in the Olympics due to logistical reasons and some sports can have such a corrupt culture and governing body that it shouldn’t part of the Olympics or a segment in a greater umbrella of its particular sport because that poisonous tree is infecting the entire orchard.

 

[Willin]

I’m curious, what do you expect to see from them with everything you have in consideration?

I think in ice dance teams need to build relationships and a narrative.

As I said, I don't think they're doing a great job at the first part. I think - if they really want to be competitive, they'll need to move out of LA and to MIDA, IAM, WASA, or one of the camps in Europe. They'll need to really get judges and coaches on their side and rebuild those bridges - whether they burned them as some people believe or just moved on and ended them amicably.

You need those relationships for the politicking but also for the program building: you need a program that will hit right and have constant and broad feedback from high level judges, coaches, and skaters on how to tweak things to maximize your point potential. I think that's one reason IAM is so successful: they frequently collaborate and get feedback to make things as appealing to judges as possible. Their skaters tweak things quite often or repeat things that worked for their camp already. And now that Chock/Bates are on the path to being judges that only adds to the value of your network.

And then that network and friends build your narrative: skaters collaborate on photoshoots to announce programs, they make costumes that fit the latest ice dance fashions, they invite you to shows, etc. Which, your narrative is important. We've seen how that fun glam narrative helped Fear/Gibson get to podiums or how fast Gilles/Poirier jumped to podium contenders once they ditched their fun image and grew up (and then how going back to fun has hurt them in the last two SDs. Even the Shibutanis really benefitted from their Fix You working their way back to the podium narrative pre-2018.

So I think they need to build a strong narrative. I'm not sure what - the fans have started building the kidney cancer narrative and history rewrite now (saying it happened much later in the timeline or that it was much worse than Maia publicized), but that would only sit right if that was their choice.

But it's up to them how they want to play it. Being "the fun ones" a la their Hip Hop SD won't work as Fear and Gibson have that cornered - and many teams have significantly upped their game in that aspect due to the SD requirements. Being "the modern ones" a la Coldplay won't work with the glut of teams that have taken after the P/C style (and the French team that does more creative modern programs). Being the "sibling team" may not be as novel as more sibling teams are now making it to Seniors. So they could choose these narratives, but something more creative to set them apart from the field would be better. As we've seen with Olivia Smart's Zorro and now Dune programs, C/B's Snake and Alien programs, and Fear and Gibson's Rocky, having a unique narrative and program is very valuable and can have immediate and dramatic results if done right.

 

[On My Own]

We might as well call stuffing your mouth chock full of nasty food a sport. Which I guess some do, because some were dumb enough to compete against each other on that premise.

Not every physically taxing activity is a sport. Fetching pails of water from up the hill and tumbling down like Jack and Jill is not a sport - it sounds more like punishment, but I suppose watching Ice Dance is worse punishment.

 

[VGThuy]

So I think they need to build a strong narrative. I'm not sure what - the fans have started building the kidney cancer narrative and history rewrite now (saying it happened much later in the timeline or that it was much worse than Maia publicized), but that would only sit right if that was their choice.

What fans? I didn’t see anyone saying that here. And if you mean me in the other thread, I was not rewriting anything. I never said anything about a timeline and I was going with what Maia herself said about the frustrations she was having with dealing much longer recovery than she expected and the emotional toll is took on her as someone who relied on her body as an athlete. I was also reacting to a very dismissive and insensitive response. Other than toxic groups who try to prove an influencer is lying about her cancer (just read a NYTimes story where this very real cancer patient is dealing with a small but vocal and dedicated online mob on Reddit, who are hell bent on exposing her even when she keeps providing proof), I’m still taken aback about how dismissive some are about cancer here, and are blind to just how much their bias against the Shibs are playing into it.

 

[overedge]

It’s definitely a sport. It’s just the judging, the scoring system, the attitudes, and needing to be part of the in-crowd and follow the formula or be shunned that makes it illegitimate.

This. I agree that something being hard to do doesn't make it a sport, but ice dance is super hard to do well because of, among other things, the emphasis on edges. Remember Daisuke Takahashi saying that he thought he had a good lean on his edges from doing singles, but when he started doing ice dance he had to learn to lean even more

Also the compulsory dances. You have to do the pattern. Singles and pairs have required elements, like compulsory dances have required steps, but in singles and pairs you can fit those elements into your own choreography that shows off your other strengths, like being flexible or graceful. In compulsory dances it doesn't matter if, say, you like turning left more than you like turning right, or you feel more confident doing some steps but not others. Too bad. You have to do the pattern - and do it in time to the music, whether you like skating at that speed or not.

 

[On My Own]

That's a wonderful definition of a sport. Hard versus super hard.

 

[Excidra]

I am not sure what the motivation is for S&S to return, but if it's that they miss competition ice then they'll do fine. However, if their intent is to return to shake things up at the top, then I think they'll be very disappointed. They weren't gold medal favorites during the height of their career and they won't be now after taking 7 years off. Good luck to them.

 

[ajingmarg]

I would be surprised. They've been out for 7 years. I see this more like when Katerina Witt and Brian Boitano came back. Katerina came back for fun but Brian wanted to be competitive. But he didn't allow enough time to get his skills back and the Shibs have not given themselves a lot of time to get back to Olympic level.

You cannot compare singles skating to ice dancing. It's like comparing apples and oranges

 

[Carolla5501]

Honestly, I think I should be thrown out of the Olympics and probably out of some other consideration. It’s corrupt and they’re not going to fix the problem and so since they’re not going to fix the problem, there needs to be some kind of consequences. Maybe that would motivate them to do something

I’m sure it’s hard. I’m not saying it’s not hard, but that doesn’t mean it should be an Olympic sport. There are a lot of sports that are hard that are not in the Olympics

 

[my little pony]

I think they are athletes but it is not a sport

more importantly, this comeback needs a catchphrase to iron on to t shirts. **** your favorites? hot play? just a picture of Milano cookies?

 

[skategal]

Ballet is super hard. It is not a sport.

Ice dance seems to be moving this direction with the watering down of the technical requirements and the rewarding GOE based on vibes.

The faux concern that the Shibs aren’t with the “right” coaches and in the “right” circles from posters angry they returned is an interesting read.

I’ve never been a Shibs uber in the past (I liked them but never loved them) but this thread is turning me into one super quickly.

Looking forward to seeing them again.

Hope they skate an exhibition to “Sky Full of Stars” by Coldplay.

 

[manhn]

Yeah, as if people would be neutral if the Shibs went to Montreal.

 

[cholla]

I think they are athletes but it is not a sport

This is rather contradictory By definition an athlete is someone doing sports. The politics ruling ice dance is a real mess for sure and that should be corrected once and for all. But saying that ice dance isn't a sport because of politics is unfair. Practising at elite level requires a high amount of difficult physical work. Most figures and elements require physical strength and tons of effort. I was a competitive freestyle skier for 8 years and I was told countless times it wasn't a sport compared to alpine skiing. Only I came from alpine skiing and freestyle was as much work and difficulties. All the ice dancers I know are infuriated when they hear people belittling the sport aspect of their discipline.

 

[On My Own]

All the ice dancers I know are infuriated when they hear people belittling the sport aspect of their discipline.

Well that's their problem.

But anyway, even if it's a sport, I don't believe it should be an Olympic level sport. But then, I don't believe the Olympics should exist at all at this point.

 

[my little pony]

Yeah, as if people would be neutral if the Shibs went to Montreal.

they should get a Marie universe program. just cover every base.

 

[PRlady]

Lots of sports are political. Are you in the right high school/travel program, what tennis/golf academy trained you, who’s your coach and does he have a direct line to college recruiters, etc. And that’s just in the U.S., I can only imagine the politics of coming up in football in Spain or archery in Korea or equestrian in the UK.

Ice dance lends itself to corrupt judging because the intangible artistry element is even more important than in singles skating and god knows more than the mechanical trick show that is pairs, but that doesn’t invalidate it as a sport. No matter what they do, someone - technical caller or judge- has too much power and seeing things like levels in patterns takes a trained eye. (I can call offsides in hockey and barely know the game.)

Given how strong the traditional skating powers - U.S., France, Canada, Russia when they’re competing - are in dance, I’d be really surprised if it was ever deaccessioned as an Oly sport.

 

[just tuned in]

I am rooting for them. But they do have to be careful with the coaching situation to not supersede Gre|Par or the others ranked 3-6.

 

[On My Own]

intangible artistry

Yes, it doesn't exist, so it's intangible.

 

[PRlady]

Yes, it doesn't exist, so it's intangible.

Yikes, you’re not just a scientist you’re a materialist behaviorist. Plenty of important things are intangible.

 

[On My Own]

materialist behaviorist

I don't even know what that means.*

Not for one moment do I believe the current rules allow for "artistry" in any sense of the word, unless we're pretending kitsch is art now, and not in the retro/revivalist sense.

*I do.