Shamima Begum and Hoda Muthana

SHARPIE

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Begum the British runaway who left to join ISIS in 2015, aged 15 now at the age of 19 wants to return from the refugee camp she’s currently in with her newborn baby as the caliphate crumbles.

Same with the American Muthana. (I don’t know a great deal about her).

Begum has encouraged people in the UK to show her sympathy, but everytime she opens her mouth for an interview she really isn’t doing herself any favours.

I made plenty of mistakes when I was 15, usually involving drinking too much alcohol in fields with my friends but joining ISIS?

It’s a real shitstorm and dominating the press over here, Theresa May must be so pleased. I know this is possibly PI material but I’ll see how it goes.

Personally I think she would be a threat to national security if she came back to the UK. I doubt much debate would be made over a male fighter. She does say however, that all she did was be a housewife.

(A housewife that saw a decapitated head in a bin which didn’t faze her).
 

Catherine M

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I've been following the ISIS bride stories off and on the past couple of years and Begum is by far the worst one I've read of, just from the fact that she has ZERO remorse. I know her family is pleading for a "second" chance but I don't see that being a good idea.
 

rfisher

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Muthana is on her 3rd husband (first 2 were killed) and also has a baby. She spent her time trying to get people in the US to be suicide bombers. I can't see the state of Alabama welcoming her home.
 

ballettmaus

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How can they be sure that she is sincere and/or that she isn't a sleeper agent? I wouldn't consider the word of someone who was with ISIS to be worth much.

Shouldn't she have known enough about ISIS at 15 to know that they're terrorists?

Is she still a British citizen? Could Britain deny her entry if she is?
 

Jot the Dot Dot

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I don't know what Britain's laws are, but in the U. S. there is a law against giving 'aid and comfort' to a foreign enemy in times of war. Even if subject X expresses remorse, the deed has been done and the doer must face the music.
 

hanca

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Maybe your country could have her, to give her ‘aid and comfort’?
She doesn’t express remorse. In fact, she doesn’t seem to realise that she has done anything wrong. And she appears to be too stupid to even pretend, to give the interviewers what they want to hear. I would expect her to be claiming how she has made a mistake, how she realises it now...but no. She doesn’t think that she made a mistake, and doesn’t regret it because it made her a stronger person.
 

mella

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How can they be sure that she is sincere and/or that she isn't a sleeper agent? I wouldn't consider the word of someone who was with ISIS to be worth much.

Shouldn't she have known enough about ISIS at 15 to know that they're terrorists?

Is she still a British citizen? Could Britain deny her entry if she is?
Apparently they cannot make her "stateless" therefore cannot strip citizenship and cannot prevent her returning. They have said though that they won't assist her is returning. And she will face justice if she comes back (I'm not sure what the specific crime would be if they have no proof she was fighting though).

Every time she opens her mouth it's clearer and clearer that she either has no remorse or has been so completely groomed that she has Stockholm syndrome.

Debated this over weekend with someone and I do accept that grooming and Stockholm syndrome are reasonable issues to consider given her age when she left the UK. However given all she says it doesn't sound to me like she has any sense of anything wrong. How can you even begin to rehabilitate someobe like that...?

There would be nothing sleeper agent about her. She's loud and proud!
 

SHARPIE

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Is she still a British citizen? Could Britain deny her entry if she is?
She is and we can’t deny her entry.

Up until about two days ago, I was thinking, “Oh let her back, she’s a mum to a newborn and was a bit stupid”. But after seeing a few more interviews with her, where frankly she comes across as a sociopath I just can’t sympathise with her.
 

antmanb

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She is and we can’t deny her entry.

Up until about two days ago, I was thinking, “Oh let her back, she’s a mum to a newborn and was a bit stupid”. But after seeing a few more interviews with her, where frankly she comes across as a sociopath I just can’t sympathise with her.
I think I've been through exactly the same thought process as you Sharpie, initially I was more sympathetic but since she's given interviews I think it would only be a matter of time before she starts getting involved in terrorist activities over here as well.

I'm assuming even if they have nothing more on her they could detain her on aiding and abetting charges.
 

Lorac

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She is and we can’t deny her entry.

Up until about two days ago, I was thinking, “Oh let her back, she’s a mum to a newborn and was a bit stupid”. But after seeing a few more interviews with her, where frankly she comes across as a sociopath I just can’t sympathise with her.
I think I've been through exactly the same thought process as you Sharpie, initially I was more sympathetic but since she's given interviews I think it would only be a matter of time before she starts getting involved in terrorist activities over here as well.

I'm assuming even if they have nothing more on her they could detain her on aiding and abetting charges.
I'm in agreement with both of you here. To begin with I was leaning towards sympathy with her - especially as she claimed (but we have no proof) that she lost two prior children to malnutrition. But every interview she has given just seems to have zero remorse and seems rather proud of what she has done. She really believes she should get sympathy from the GBP for her 'plight' but nothing she says seems to indicate any remorse from her at all. She spouts the so called Islamic State's party line of how killing enemies of Islam is allowed though many scholars argue differently. She is well and truly indoctrinated in the so called Islamic State's philosophy and it will take an awful lot of debriefing and work to make her think otherwise IMO. The UK government has stated that they won't send anyone to Syria to assist her as we have no representation there but is she gets to a country we have a consulate in then they will look into her situation due to the fact she is a UK citizen. Let's wait until that point and see what happens then though I do believe she will be detained the moment she sets foot on UK soil.
 

Miezekatze

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She is and we can’t deny her entry.

Up until about two days ago, I was thinking, “Oh let her back, she’s a mum to a newborn and was a bit stupid”. But after seeing a few more interviews with her, where frankly she comes across as a sociopath I just can’t sympathise with her.
I only followed the case of German Linda W. more closely than others, but she came across similarily to me. All "remorse" coming from her sounded like whining about having ruined her own life, but nothing else. Duh.
Of course she also claimed to have done "nothing", but apparently she at least terrorized other women to live by the rules of IS.

As far as I know she's still imprisoned in Iraq currently, they sentenced her to 6 years in prison there. I guess the cases in Syria are even more complicated because there is no prosecution from Syria itself possible.

In Germany Linda W. also would have been investigated for "being member of a terror organization", I think the investigation was dropped, because she was convicted in Iraq. is this not a crime that possibly would also apply in Britain?
 

mella

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I'm in agreement with both of you here. To begin with I was leaning towards sympathy with her - especially as she claimed (but we have no proof) that she lost two prior children to malnutrition. But every interview she has given just seems to have zero remorse and seems rather proud of what she has done. She really believes she should get sympathy from the GBP for her 'plight' but nothing she says seems to indicate any remorse from her at all. She spouts the so called Islamic State's party line of how killing enemies of Islam is allowed though many scholars argue differently. She is well and truly indoctrinated in the so called Islamic State's philosophy and it will take an awful lot of debriefing and work to make her think otherwise IMO. The UK government has stated that they won't send anyone to Syria to assist her as we have no representation there but is she gets to a country we have a consulate in then they will look into her situation due to the fact she is a UK citizen. Let's wait until that point and see what happens then though I do believe she will be detained the moment she sets foot on UK soil.
Urgh... hadn't realised they would look at her situation if she gets to a country with a consulate. Interestingly taking this as high profile as she haswill probably i.pact her ability to get access to such a country... assu.ing she has a passport still.

I'm interested by the fact that I can't see much about the husband and where he currently is. Have i missed it. My mum said (sarcastically) at the weekend that she'll come back here then apply for her husband to cone and join her... But did I read somewhere that he is actually Dutch?
 

attyfan

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Would it be possible for the appropriate governmental entities to have the women declared unfit parents and put the kids up for adoption? IMO, they deserve better.
 

Vagabond

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I don't know what Britain's laws are, but in the U. S. there is a law against giving 'aid and comfort' to a foreign enemy in times of war. Even if subject X expresses remorse, the deed has been done and the doer must face the music.
That law is, of course, the Constitution which defines treason as "levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

The British definition, which has been around since 1351, is somewhat broader but includes levying war against the King in his Realm or having adhered to the King's enemies in his Realm, giving them aid and comfort in his Realm or elsewhere.

Does anyone other than prospective defense counsel really want to argue that marrying ISIS soldiers isn't giving them aid and comfort?

I say let them come home and stand trial, and let their children grow up in the U.K. and the U.S. The alternative seems to be that they and their mothers will spend the rest of their lives in either refugee camps or some worse form of confinement.
 

hanca

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Would it be possible for the appropriate governmental entities to have the women declared unfit parents and put the kids up for adoption? IMO, they deserve better.
Not sure if for adoption, but if she was detained, then possibly foster care or place it under special guardianship with a family member.
 

millyskate

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When others have wound up in places such as Guantanamo for lesser links to terrorism, I cannot help but feel that revoking citizenship is the diplomatic approach to this complicated situation.
 

hanca

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I wonder how it would work. So if British citizenship was the only citizenship she had, she will not have any citizenship at all? So what country is she supposed to live in? Stay where she is? Or try to get her husband’s citizenship? (Not that I would expect Dutch to to be in rush to give her their citizenship).
 

Vagabond

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I wonder how it would work. So if British citizenship was the only citizenship she had, she will not have any citizenship at all? So what country is she supposed to live? Stay where she is? Or try to get her husband’s citizenship? (Not that I would expect Dutch to to be in rush to give her their citizenship).
She apparently has Bangladeshi citizenship through her mother. https://www.dualcitizenship.com/countries/bangladesh.html
https://news.sky.com/story/is-bride-shamima-begum-having-british-citizenship-removed-11642230

British law does not permit the deprivation of citizenship if the person would be made stateless. https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/631643/deprivation-nullity-Chapter-55.pdf

That said, and speaking as someone who is not British, revocation under these circumstances strikes me as just plain wrong. Shamina Begum has never lived in Bangladesh and has apparently never done anything to avail herself of the rights and privileges of Bangladeshi citizenship.
 

millyskate

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It does feel rather unfair on Bangladesh - who in this case, through no fault of their own, appear to have "inherited" a citizen with terrorist intentions. It's almost like countries could be in races to revoke citizenship first...
 

attyfan

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Does anyone know if the child be a citizen of Britain or of Bangladesh? (IMO, the first priority should be getting the child away and safely placed; revoking the citizenship can be second)
 

Lorac

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Wow, so the UK Government are revoking Begum’s citizenship.
This is a pretty drastic step and could have ramifications in other cases. However I can only assume the Home Secretary has spoken with lawyers who are well versed in this type of thing so feel he has a right to take this step. I'm sure the Bangladesh government - if that is the citizenship the UK feel she also has - will be fighting this decision as well as her family. However I do feel her actions and words - especially her recent words - have brought this decision down on her head. Interestingly her son should still have UK citizenship as he was born prior to this decision.
 

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