Savchenko/Massot vs. Zagitova - Exact Opposite LP Approach Discussion

[tony]

This is something interesting that I haven't seen addressed much, if at all, following Zagitova's gold medal performance and discussion about her program layout that has been building throughout the end of last season and all this season.

Alina opts to do all of her jumping elements in the second half of her 4:00 long free skate, in a block of three jumping elements, a spin, and then four jumping elements before completing her program with another spin.

Savchenko/Massot, on the other hand, complete all five of their jumping elements (counting the twist here as a jump element) as the first five elements in their 4:30 long program. All of these elements are completed by the 1:44 mark, a good 30 seconds before the halfway point.

Pairs are not rewarded with any 10% bonus for elements after the halfway point anymore. Ladies are rewarded with 10% bonus for all jumping elements in the second half. Therefore, you can figure out why S/M chose their setup and why Zagitova chose hers.

I love Savchenko/Massot and absolutely believe their long program is a masterpiece, and I also really respect Zagitova and her willingness to risk all of the difficult elements in the second half. However, looking at these program setups, I don't know why they are any different or why so many people are quick to rip Zagitova to shreds while not saying a word about Savchenko/Massot. Zagitova actually breaks up her elements with a spin in between, even if they are done closely together. The Germans on the other hand do all five of their elements at the beginning and together, arguably making the program 'composition' much easier. I know they have less jump elements than the singles skaters, but everything is done just as closely together/as quickly as what Zagitova is doing-- just at the complete opposite point in the program.

So I guess what I'm asking is what the Zagitova nay-sayers and/or Savchenko/Massot lovers see as the difference in their approaches. For those of you so eager to ditch the second half bonus or limit the amount of jumping elements that can be done in the second half, do you also think it should be illegal to do everything in the first half?

For what it's worth, I think Zagitova's program worked wonderfully with the music and I had no problem with her doing all the jumps in the second half.

 

[rfisher]

I have no problem with either. The layout for both fit the music. Fans whine that skaters could be skating to anything, yet when elements are placed to compliment the music, they whine about the layout. Or mostly if the program beats their favorites

 

[clairecloutier]

I think the reason why S/M’s layout is less criticized comes down to a couple of points.

1. First and foremost, S/M use the front loaded program to help create a beautiful moment artistically in the second half. Their program is truly stunning and impactful when skated well, thus making the frontloading more “worth it” if you will, or acceptable. Whereas Zagitova’s program, particularly the first half, is never much more than pleasant/mildly exciting, and doesn’t create the transcendent moment that S/M can when skating well.

2. I think Savchenko/Massot’s LP feels more balanced than Zagitova’s because they have several big lifts in the second half. While a lot of fans don’t regard lifts as risk elements, I’m not sure that’s quite the way the pairs skaters look at them (especially the guys ). Lifts these days are so complex and difficult that they still require great concentration from the skaters (especially for Bruno, with his recent back problems). I know I was almost holding my breath on each of S/M’s final lifts, hoping there would be no disasters to mar the clean performance!

 

[starrynight]

The difference with Savchenko/Massot is that they still had the lifts in the second half... particularly that great lift right at the end. I think lifts are probably lots of people's favourite pairs element. (Edit - I just realised clairecloutier posted this exact thing at the same time!)

I've watched that skate with plenty of people who were kept very interested by lots of 'wow' elements the whole way through. There wasn't a moment of waiting for something interesting to happen.

 

[rfisher]

I find Zagitova's first half very interesting. The foot work sequences go with the music! A jump element would have just been stuck it there with no real purpose. The change in the music in the 2nd half has the jumps right on the music. I don't think it matters where the elements are if they make sense. 99.9% of skaters programs don't. They lay out the elements then add music. It's much more difficult to choreograph the elements to the music.

 

[annie_mg]

I agree with those who said that S/M's programme didn't feel less balanced because there were risky elements all the way through. Frankly, I find the two side by side jumps to be the most nerve wracking moment of any pairs team programme so I really don't mind if they get them out of the way at the beginning so that both the skaters and myself can enjoy the programme. And we're talking about two jumping passes, not seven like in singles skaters, so you can't really compare the two in my opinion.

I admit I always loved S/S's 10-seconds-before-the-end-of-the-programme throw triple flip. That was badass and very impressive. But with such a brilliantly-choregraphed programme this year by S/M, I didn't miss it.

On a side note, with all this talk about backloading and Zagitova's "on the beat" jumps on Don Quixote, I personally cannot wait to see Zagitova skating to a different music, without the wow effect of jumps landed on the music's highlight moments. I have hope that she can skate on music that allows for a more nuanced approach and still do well!

 

[shady82]

For those paying any remote attention to how naturally the program fits the music, it's glaringly obvious that Zagitova's footwork in the long is meant to kill time. I would love to see her skate to an LP using Hungarian Rhapsody, to which I think she could do a very effective program that is well-choreographed to the music in both halves.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I think some of the difference is (1) 5 risk elements, versus 7; and (2) more variation within those risk elements — side-by-side jumps, throw jumps, and a twist lift are three different categories of elements, whereas jumps (especially to a casual viewer) all look the same.

Pairs also used to get the bonus on lifts, so I’m not sure Savchenko and Massot would have done anything differently had the old bonus been in place.

I’d be OK with a moderate approach that gives pairs a 10% bonus for ONE side-by-side jumping pass and ONE throw jump or twist past the halfway point. Many of the pairs, including Duhamel and Radford, front-loaded 4/5 or all five of the jump, throw, and twist elements.

 

[Quadjump]

I agree withmany others here.

I think the main thing is the result at the end. S/M created this masterpiece and it worked fo all of us. So I do not care. I even believe that it is part of the concept to sell it over more than two minutes. They decides to focus more on the lifts (the lift was also the final element in their flamenco SP) because they are so impressive.

The ISU cut the 10% bonus after 2014 for pairs due safety reasons. So now noone should complain about the front loading of the risky elements. T/M and D/R put four out of five jump elements to the front too.

And noone can blame Aljona for this decision after she performed the 3STh as the last element from 2006 till 2016.

Zagitova's back loading is just there to gain Points. And to be honest. I am more than surprised that it worked too. My mouth is usually wide open when shows all these triple as clean as possible in the last minute. It creates such a special feeling I have never felt before in FS

 

[Marco]

I have no issue with competitors strategizing to maximize points / likelihood of success under the rules. I live for anyone using the rules to their fullest advantage. The flaw in the rule itself though, is that it is supposed to reward jumps done on tired legs, but if there are no jumps at all in the first half, how tired would her legs really be when the second half starts (compared to others who did some jumps in the first half)? If the rule is also to encourage even spread of jumps (as most pre-IJS programs were heavily frontloaded), then it also isn't quite working.

For both Zagitova and S&M, I do think there is a calculated risk that the judges may ding these programs on PCS (CH) for being imbalanced. Of course, in both cases, it didn't happen all season even though I feel it should. I suppose if it actually did, they would have nothing to say about that. I agree with Tony that the way both programs were structured minimized the focus of the frontload/ backload aspect with choreography and moves that matched the music / mood and hence IN and PE were justifiably not dinged (or not enough to be noticed).

 

[Xela M]

I have no issue with competitors strategizing to maximize points / likelihood of success under the rules. I live for anyone using the rules to their fullest advantage. The flaw in the rule itself though, is that it is supposed to reward jumps done on tired legs, but if there are no jumps at all in the first half, how tired would her legs really be when the second half starts (compared to others who did some jumps in the first half)? If the rule is also to encourage even spread of jumps (as most pre-IJS programs were heavily frontloaded), then it also isn't quite working.

For both Zagitova and S&M, I do think there is a calculated risk that the judges may ding these programs on PCS (CH) for being imbalanced. Of course, in both cases, it didn't happen all season even though I feel it should. I suppose if it actually did, they would have nothing to say about that. I agree with Tony that the way both programs were structured minimized the focus of the frontload/ backload aspect with choreography and moves that matched the music / mood and hence IN and PE were justifiably not dinged (or not enough to be noticed).

I am not a skater, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I heard, it's the spins that tire skaters out a lot more than the jumps. It really is extremely difficult to do what Zagitova did, which is really why she was the only only one attempting it. There is no flaw in the rules. They reward the extreme difficulty of the program.

 

[snoopy]

I agree with some of the points made but i also think sav/mas are sentimental favorites and were given more leeway by many fans. Was anyone going to pick on Aliona winning on her fifth try? Unlikely. Maybe if you were on Chinese boards you might have found a criticism or two.

 

[umronnie]

There is a big difference between single and pairs skating WRT the elements. Jumps are usually the highlight of a singles' program (it used to be steps or spiral until CoP killed those) whereas lifts are the highlight of pairs' skating. And lifts have a bigger impact because they take more than a blink of the eye.

S/M gained 30% of their TES from lifts and 44% from jumps - if you consider the twist as a jump. Usually it is considered a lift, in which case there are 4 jumping elements and 4 lift element, and then S/M have 34% from jumps and 40% from lifts. The TES points are about evenly gaines in both halfs of the program.

Zags, like most ladies, gained 73% of her TES from jumps. That is not ususual, as Med and Oz where about 71%. The problem is the first half of the program only had 3 elements - the steps and chores seq's which go on forever. Zag's first 2 minuts were "worth" just 17% of TES and the second half 83%...

You should compare her program with other single skaters, none of whom (except for Eteri's clones) use the tactic of all jumping elements in the second half. Is it just because they can't? If you look at the progress of Hanyu's TES (look at WC2017, where he did evertything he planned) - at the 2 mnutes mark the TES is about 40, and at the end it is 120 - he gains twice as many points in the second half, but the first half is not empty...

 

[casken]

I agree with some of the points made but i also think sav/mas are sentimental favorites and were given more leeway by many fans. Was anyone going to pick on Aliona winning on her fifth try? Unlikely. Maybe if you were on Chinese boards you might have found a criticism or two.

I felt like I was the only person who pointed out how front loaded S&M LP and was bothered by it, but like you said above, people weren't going to criticize Aliona after all this time for something like that.

 

[julieann]

I felt like I was the only person who pointed out how front loaded A&M LP and was bothered by it, but like you said above, people weren't going to criticize Aliona after all this time for something like that.

But judging from what @umronnie posted, that's not entirely mathematically true. People don't always think how difficult lifts are in pairs, only jumps and throws.

There is a big difference between single and pairs skating WRT the elements. Jumps are usually the highlight of a singles' program (it used to be steps or spiral until CoP killed those) whereas lifts are the highlight of pairs' skating. And lifts have a bigger impact because they take more than a blink of the eye.

S/M gained 30% of their TES from lifts and 44% from jumps - if you consider the twist as a jump. Usually it is considered a lift, in which case there are 4 jumping elements and 4 lift element, and then S/M have 34% from jumps and 40% from lifts. The TES points are about evenly gaines in both halfs of the program.

It appears as though they had a pretty well balanced program. And although I do miss the big throw at the end, I can see with all their injuries why they moved it.

 

[jlai]

I have no problem with either. The layout for both fit the music. Fans whine that skaters could be skating to anything, yet when elements are placed to compliment the music, they whine about the layout. Or mostly if the program beats their favorites

Or they say the judges are right because their favorites win.
Such arguments go both ways.

To me, ultimately, the judges are fans like ourselves, and they have preferences just like all of us. Judges' opinion is a sample of the pool. Fans' opinions are also a sample of the universe.

I'm no pairs fan and I am not married to who wins the ladies. But I don't get the extreme heated argument on the side of the winner...or non-winner.

Like it or not, the current judging system is partly a result of politics. So it may favor some skaters...and the pendulum swings back and forth regarding what the judging system prefers or doesn't prefer. (like now it prefers transitions in ladies skating but not 10 years ago)

 

[manhn]

I had problems with both! Yay for consistency! That said, Aliona is a much more beautiful skater than Zagitova. Second half of S&M is better than the first half of Zag. Anyways, if the Chinese were cleaner, the Chinese would have won, even though I cannot stand their LP. Oh, the uniqueness of Don Quixote. How in the world did the gazillion other skaters skate to it without putting all of their jumps in the second half?!?!?!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

For those paying any remote attention to how naturally the program fits the music, it's glaringly obvious that Zagitova's footwork in the long is meant to kill time. I would love to see her skate to an LP using Hungarian Rhapsody, to which I think she could do a very effective program that is well-choreographed to the music in both halves.

Given her team's layout strategy, I agree that using Hungarian Rhapsody would be a great long program choice for Zagitova. Great suggestion, by the way.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Savchenko's and Massot's free skating layout doesn't bother me.

I'm a bit 6.0 old school when it comes to pairs' free skates. Back in the day, it was pretty much a standard for teams to put their power moves first. That is, the split twist, two sets of side by side jumps, and the two throws.

What I find fascinating is that back in the early 1980s, some of the teams packed in quite a lot of content. Cynthia Coull and Mark Rowsom, for example, had a split triple twist, sbs triple toe loops, sbs triple salchows, and when the rules allowed it, a throw triple salchow, throw triple loop, and throw double axel. They had two death spirals, and three very nice lifts with changes of position. Coull also competed at the international and championship level as well.

Tony Wheeler will know this. When did the ISU dump the 10% bonus for pairs? For several seasons, I seem to recall the top Chinese teams putting their triple throws back to back after the two minute mark.

 

[Areski]

For those paying any remote attention to how naturally the program fits the music, it's glaringly obvious that Zagitova's footwork in the long is meant to kill time. I would love to see her skate to an LP using Hungarian Rhapsody, to which I think she could do a very effective program that is well-choreographed to the music in both halves.

Yeah ... I also have the same impression during her Don Quixote. I mostly find myself waiting when jumps finally start. First half is ok ... but I am far from being hypnotized to the point that I don't notice the time passing by. She gives me impression of doing excercise on shallow edges striking some shape with her body more or less far from optimally extended from time to time.

 

[julieann]

Savchenko's and Massot's free skating layout doesn't bother me.

I'm a bit 6.0 old school when it comes to pairs' free skates. Back in the day, it was pretty much a standard for teams to put their power moves first. That is, the split twist, two sets of side by side jumps, and the two throws.

What I find fascinating is that back in the early 1980s, some of the teams packed in quite a lot of content. Cynthia Coull and Mark Rowsom, for example, had a split triple twist, sbs triple toe loops, sbs triple salchows, and when the rules allowed it, a throw triple salchow, throw triple loop, and throw double axel. They had two death spirals, and three very nice lifts with changes of position. Coull also competed at the international and championship level as well.

Tony Wheeler will know this. When did the ISU dump the 10% bonus for pairs? For several seasons, I seem to recall the top Chinese teams putting their triple throws back to back after the two minute mark.

The ISU removed the bonus the season after Sochi.

 

[aftershocks]

It's not that big a deal IMO. I could see in the moments when Savchenko/Massot were performing that they were getting the difficult jumping passes and throws out of the way first. And then they flew through the rest of the fp performance on wings as eagles. The most important thing is that S/M believed in themselves and in their ability to come back from the small doubling out mistake on a sbs jump in the sp that had them in 4th place in the deep pairs field. It was absolutely amazing how S/M didn't allow themselves to be down after the sp. They knew they were at the Olympics and that this was their ultimate goal and their moment.

Bruno was going to get that gold medal for his diva partner, and Aliona is the epitome of 'never give up' fierceness! Lady Aliona is focused and badass talented. With Steuer and Szolkowy, Savchenko helped revolutionize pairs. And that's not a small accomplishment. That Aliona was NOT going to leave the battlefield without an OGM speaks volumes and then some! Every pairs girl looks up to AS and wants to be AS, or at the very least have her heart and her fierce determination.

That fp by S/M was genius and it was magic. It was the best moment for me at the Olympics (with the Shibs' individual FD, Mirai's 3-axel in team event, Adam's sass & artistry throughout, and Nathan's 'throw caution to the winds' comeback in the individual fp also memorable moments). But S/M's fp and then their reaction backstage upon realizing they'd won -- that's what I'll remember most from the 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics.

Ya know @Tony Wheeler, to each their own way of looking at things. As I said, I noticed and I previously mentioned that S/M got many difficult elements (throws, jumps, twist) out of the way in the first half, whilst Zagitova clearly in both programs puts all the difficult jumping elements at the end in order to points-grab. Zagitova is a talented skater with potential to grow if she's actually going to be motivated to grow after winning the OGM in her first year in seniors at her first Olympics, no less. Here are some things to keep in mind:

First of all, why attempt to straight-up compare singles programs with pairs programs? These are two different disciplines. Next, S/M's program soared artistically, while Zagitova's did not, IMHO. Zagitova rushes through her moves because she's apparently not mature enough to understand how to hold out moves and express musical nuances. She parrots what her coaches have taught her when it comes to performance. OTOH, Aliona is a grown woman with her own creative ideas, and she works collaboratively with her partner, coaches and choreographers. That S/M got many difficult elements completed first surely was a strategy that worked for them, but it did not take anything away from their performance.

Furthermore, it's not easy to put all jumping elements in the first half. If you make a mistake on a throw or a jump, you have another difficult pass coming right away, so that approach can be daunting as well if not perfectly managed. The strategy allowed S/M to focus their energy on completing some of their hardest elements and then they breathed freer with a huge boost that carried them soaring through the final minutes of their program. As others have noted, the main point is that Aliona and Bruno were crafting their performance artistically throughout and building toward a gorgeous climax.

The S/M fp video has expired on NBC Olympics website, so here's S/M's GPF fp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4B9FIdZlHE Of course, their Olympic winning performance is even better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8giW1T0QU in arena Olympic pairs ceremony
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/reaction-moment-savchenko-massot-win-gold backstage reaction
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/medal-ceremony-savchenko-massot-receive-gold-medals Olympic medal ceremony
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/watch-best-moments-figure-skatings-pairs-event Olympic pairs highlights

Although Zagitova is talented athletically, her Olympic fp performance did not convey that she understood much about her music nor about the character of Kitri in the ballet she is supposed to be performing. Zagitova is entertaining to watch and she has artistic potential, but right now it's more about bells and whistles, smoke and mirrors and flouncing around in a tutu posing with forward bends, smiles, and arms angled. It's a circus act rather than a work of art.

Every nuance and moment of S/M's fp has resonance and impact. Even with placing their throws and jumps earlier, these elements are still carefully balanced with the choreography in a way that beautifully expresses the music. S/M perform two lifts in the middle and then footwork, combo spin, death spiral and a final difficult variation lift with carry sequence at the very end. In pairs, a combo spin, death spiral and difficult final lift are not exactly pieces of cake. S/M still had to maintain energy and focus throughout. But of course, aceing the throws and jumps in the first half gives S/M a huge boost to continue building with confidence.

Not every singles skater has the endurance and stamina to successfully land all of their jumps at the end of a performance in order to pad their scores. Neither do all pairs teams have the balls to place their throws and sbs jumps in the first half. And S/M did this while crafting a balanced, creatively expressed performance that pays detailed attention to the music. So we're talking apples and oranges. There is no significant or exact equivalency.

I agree that the rules do not prevent singles skaters from placing all their jumps at the end to gain extra points, and doing so is not easy. But placing every jump in the second half is definitely not the intention of the rule that rewards additional points for second half jumps. And I do not think the sport should head in the direction of skaters placing all jumps in the second half solely for point-gathering purposes, without nuanced pacing and paying attention to programs as a whole unit. The main issue I have is that Zagitova and Medvedeva, while talented, are highly over-scored in the PCS categories of composition and interpretation. Kostner, Miyahara and Osmond are the best artists, period. Zagitova and Medvedeva are the most consistent jumpers and grittiest competitors, which is a big reason why the judges love them. But there's no excuse for the OTT PCS scores ZagMeds relentlessly receive.

 

[MAXSwagg]

People seem to forget lifts got the 10% bonus as well.

You can’t conpare between pairs and singles. Though it’s clear S/M were solely focused on getting those elements done in the beginning with little expression and interpretation happening...

 

[aftershocks]

... S/M were solely focused on getting those elements done in the beginning with little expression and interpretation happening..

Nah, S/M melded their opening moves with choreography and expressiveness to the music. If you can't see that, oh well. Par for the course I suppose, since many people seem to think Zagitova is a balletic artist.

 

[Coco]

While Zagitova's program stood out compared to other ladies, S/M's program did not really stand out in a similar way because many pairs pack their risk elements into the front.

 

[iloveemoticons]

I really liked the artistry of Alina's program. It clearly conveyed the pomp-y atmosphere of a ballet performance, and the choreography was bright and charming befitting her age. Her movements were purposeful, well controlled, and connected to the music, also she has great flexibility and turnout. Nice flow and difficulty in the first half, jumps timed to the music in the second half. Difficult transitions throughout. Thought it was excellent.