Savchenko/Massot Fan Thread

whiteskates

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Lovely programme but I find the music too monotonous. A bit more variation wouldn't hurt. I preferred last years free skate. As for the throw 3A, she will never give up, LOL. I can't say Im absolutely sure but I have a feeling Aljona has always had a tendency to two foot landings but she does indeed have the best presentation of all pairs skaters and looks fabulous.
 

nimi

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is bruno already a german citizen?
Unfortunately, no. He also hasn't passed the obligatory language exam that you need to pass in order to apply for the citizenship. The German news thread had more info about the situation (check out the last several pages). Here's the latest:
According to this article, Bruno failed the written exam twice and has 2 chances left :watch:
http://www.sport.de/news/ne2917270/nordkoreas-paarlaeufer-fast-am-olympia-ziel/
:slinkaway
 

Bellanca

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:duh: This is becoming a nerve-racking experience. :wideeyes: As if Aljona needs anymore :drama:. Time to hire a tutor! :COP:
 

antmanb

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I kind of think its fine to keep pushing for these elements in the Grand Prix but more level heads should prevail at the Olympics.

Alternatively since she tends to double foot all the throws perhaps they're thinking they might as well go for the higher tariff throws since they will all end up double footed anyway?
 

sus2850

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Alternatively since she tends to double foot all the throws perhaps they're thinking they might as well go for the higher tariff throws since they will all end up double footed anyway?
As far as I heard from Alexander König and the tech/sports studies people helping her with the 3ATh (there were two differnet interview opportunities with them during Nebelhorn) while they were teaching her the throw they begged Aljona to do the landing this way to not hurt herself. Are there really examples for two-footing with other throws she has done?
 

antmanb

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As far as I heard from Alexander König and the tech/sports studies people helping her with the 3ATh (there were two differnet interview opportunities with them during Nebelhorn) while they were teaching her the throw they begged Aljona to do the landing this way to not hurt herself. Are there really examples for two-footing with other throws she has done?

I'm pretty sure last season the majority of the throw triples they attempted ended with a two foot. I think at Europeans when they did the throw 2A and throw 3S they were clean. I'll go and have a look and see what I can find.

Just based on GOE on the protocol last season:

Nebelhorn
I couldn't find the protocols but watched on youtube and
SP: 3ATh two footed.
LP: 3ATh Fall and 3Sth Two footed.

GP Russia
SP: 3Ath neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 2ATh neg and 4Sth fall: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

GP France
SP: 3Ath neg :http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpfra2016/gpfra2016_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: Both 3ATh and 3STh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpfra2016/gpfra2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Europeans
SP: 2ATh clean :http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/ec2017_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 2ATh clean, 3STh clean: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/ec2017_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Worlds
SP: 3ATh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 3ATh neg, 3STh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

So the only competition they cleanly landed their throws were all at the European championships and two of those throw were throw double axels. So they only landed 3 out of 15 attempts in competition. The error is nearly always a two foot.
 
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rfisher

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The two-footed landing is a result of how high and how far she goes during the throw. It's a bigger problem with Bruno than it was with Robin. Trankov has discussed this as well. The bigger the throw, the more difficulty the woman has in controlling the landing. There's a trade off: + GOE for the height and distance of the throw vs two-footed landings. Those who can, often opt for the height/distance. Conversely, watch pair teams who do small throws. Kavaguti/Smirnov, for example. Smirnov said they opted for the smaller throw in order to give her better chance of staying on her feet (not just one foot). Given the winning strategy of the bigger throw (bigger risk) the points lost by two-footed landings apparently aren't that big a deal. The man has to provide the force behind the throw, the woman has to have the tight rotations and then try to come down on her skate with a much greater force than someone who opts (or can only do) a much smaller throw. Then the woman has to really have a tight rotation in order to get them all in before she lands.

It's just a matter of technique and determining points.
 

antmanb

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I agree - I don't think she's learned to control the bigger throws with Bruno, but on the 3A it's clearly the rotation that's the issue she nearly always put the free foot down to stop the rotation, sometimes turning out, and when she falls she keeps on rotating and turns to the other hip. The jump is both too big and rotating too fast to stop.
 

sus2850

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I'm pretty sure last season the majority of the throw triples they attempted ended with a two foot. I think at Europeans when they did the throw 2A and throw 3S they were clean. I'll go and have a look and see what I can find.

Just based on GOE on the protocol last season:

Nebelhorn
I couldn't find the protocols but watched on youtube and
SP: 3ATh two footed.
LP: 3ATh Fall and 3Sth Two footed.

GP Russia
SP: 3Ath neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 2ATh neg and 4Sth fall: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

GP France
SP: 3Ath neg :http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpfra2016/gpfra2016_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: Both 3ATh and 3STh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpfra2016/gpfra2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Europeans
SP: 2ATh clean :http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/ec2017_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 2ATh clean, 3STh clean: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/ec2017_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Worlds
SP: 3ATh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Pairs_SP_Scores.pdf
LP: 3ATh neg, 3STh neg: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/wc2017_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

So the only competition they cleanly landed their throws were all at the European championships and two of those throw were throw double axels. So they only landed 3 out of 15 attempts in competition. The error is nearly always a two foot.

I meant: Did she do this before she learned the 3ATh? I think it is a result of that new technique she was taught. I do not remember her doing two-footing with Robin for example. Or with the 3FTh with Bruno (but I might misremember that, if there were problems with the 3FTh at say Europeans 2016 it might really be the height and power of Bruno's throwing). Anyway: It sounded to me to be a move she was told to do for her safety. And I still challenge the idea that "she tends to double foot all the throws" without adding "with Bruno" or "since she learned the 3ATh with Bruno".
 

antmanb

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I meant: Did she do this before she learned the 3ATh? I think it is a result of that new technique she was taught. I do not remember her doing two-footing with Robin for example. Or with the 3FTh with Bruno (but I might misremember that, if there were problems with the 3FTh at say Europeans 2016 it might really be the height and power of Bruno's throwing). Anyway: It sounded to me to be a move she was told to do for her safety. And I still challenge the idea that "she tends to double foot all the throws" without adding "with Bruno" or "since she learned the 3ATh with Bruno".

Sorry I thought it was pretty much implied in all conversations that I am only talking about Savchenko with Massot, I didn't mean her throws with Robin which were smaller and controlled and she had excellent landings on the 3Fth and 3STh. She struggled with the 3ATh with Robin just the same - she never landed it with him and regularly turned out and two footed because she couldn't stop the rotation.

Last season with Bruno - I've done in detail above, I don't remember her having much better luck with the throws the season before either. I seem to recall the throw 3Fth was also two footed whenever they attempted it which leads me to think that it is a problem landing the bigger, longer throws that she does with Bruno.
 

rfisher

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No, her 3TF with Robin was usually secure. He's not as strong as Bruno and she didn't get the same height. ITA that she should drop the Th3A because she has hurt herself. An injury in the Olympic year would be devastating. I personally think the risk isn't worth the benefit mostly because no other top pair team is consistent on the 3A and many are dropping the quad jumps and focusing on the quad twist instead. I don't think they need it to win. But, she's one stubborn woman which is why she's still skating competitively and pushing for the OGM.
 

Quadjump

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Finally we do not know how the throws look in practice. Aljona mentioned once that the 3ATh is not as hard as most people believe. She has not proved it so far! With Robin and Ingo she tried a different 3ATh with a long set up and fast rotation. Now they are going for a short set up with more height in the throw. This version looks better and more impressive.

I have seen amazing 3STh during warm up last year which where perfectly high and long, definitly +3. She is able to land big throws but not nearly as consistent as Volozoshar, Sui or Tarasova.
 

clairecloutier

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Sorry I thought it was pretty much implied in all conversations that I am only talking about Savchenko with Massot, I didn't mean her throws with Robin which were smaller and controlled and she had excellent landings on the 3Fth and 3STh. She struggled with the 3ATh with Robin just the same - she never landed it with him and regularly turned out and two footed because she couldn't stop the rotation.

This is how I remember it, too--Aliona being very consistent on throw 3F and throw 3S with Robin. Their throw triple flip had good height and was usually clean, as I recall. And they used to have the throw triple Salchow at the very end of the program, and Aliona would usually nail it, so that was a big highlight too.

I love Aliona/Bruno, but it seems clear there's something off with their throw technique. Almost all their throws have been 2-footed in competition, with only a very few exceptions, like the Euros free skate last year. I have no idea what the problem is. It can't just be Bruno's height/size IMO, because Trankov and Morozov are also tall & strong men, but Volosozhar and Tarasova have been able to land many clean 1-footed throws. Cong Han is not big, but he throws Sui with impressive height and length, yet she, too, is able to land 1-footed most of the time. Same with Yu/Zhang.

I believe there must be something off with the dynamic of Aliona/Bruno's throws, how they're approaching them together, or the specific mechanics of Bruno's throwing action. Another possibility might be that they started learning triple Axel and quad throws before their triple throws were solid. Which could, potentially, have caused problems. (A few other female pairs skaters have spoken of difficulties trying to maintain both triple and quad versions of the same element; although others appear to manage it). Anyhow, I wish Aliona/Bruno would consult with another coach about their throws. Koenig seems great for them in every other way, but he hasn't been able to solve this problem.

I do hope they can figure it out, because their skating is so spectacular in every other way. The throws are literally almost their only weakness, except for occasional SBS jump issues (but most pairs have those, anyway).
 
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antmanb

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I agree completely @clairecloutier and I would also echo that the height on the 3FTh with Robin was impressive - it just wasn't as long, and I suspect that the length is what is causing Aljona problems.

She was with Robin for years and years and got used to those throws and I think the change in length could be what causes problems. If the throw is high but not as long - there is more downward force on the landing of the jump which is easier to control, than greater horizontal force on a longer throw is almost impossible to dissipate even digging in with the toe-pick. If she had the check on rotation more under control on the landing she might stand a chance but the horizontal movement plus the rotational speed I think is the killer for her.
 

Spun Silver

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I just read an interview with some important person comparing long pair throws to high ones. IIRC (big if) it said Russians like Kavaguti/Smirnov did high ones with greater success than skaters from some other region with long ones. Can’t remember whether Aljona/Bruno were mentioned.
 

angi

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Was anyone watching the end of the practice sessions? They did a throw 4 times in a row and landed it cleanly but is was too far and fast for my untrained eyes to understand it it's the 2Ath or 3Ath - did anyone else catch that?
 

julieann

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I just don't think many people are giving this team the benefit of the doubt, they are still a new team, only together since 2014 and still finding their grove (esp Bruno.) Aliona may be the queen of pairs but she's a pairs geriatric and hip pain is the reason she ditched the flip. Bruno is also much taller and stronger than Robin so it will take time to get it right. Unfortunately time is not on her side, she knew that going into this partnership.

If you're going to two-foot your landings it's better to do it on a throw that get you a base value of 7.70 and not 5.50. At worlds last year they did pretty well. will only losing a total of .89 points, if they can improve on that, I think they can win without the other teams having to fail. They don't have many options in the throw department except to keep practicing and hope for the best when the Olympics come around.
 

skatfan

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This new SP (or should we say short dance?) is really impressive. The choreography is very smart, and the steps really do remind me of ice dance. Bruno is getting better at the Latin vibe and the lift - omg he literally lifts her with one hand behind his back! So glad they were rewarded with a great score today.
The one improvement is to get even more into the style of the music - but bravo on another cool program.
 

Quadjump

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I agree. There is so much power in this SP and the structure of it with this impressive lift at the end is insanely good.

The performace was as always. She avoided the fall at the throw and the jump was not the best. The rest was a top draw. Those performances are good enough to beat almost every pair but not S/H or T/M (in the SP). They really need one more point from the jump, one point more from a the throw and then they get one more point from the PCS. Then they are unbeatable.

Did somebody noticed the tano-twist? Great work! This garanties level 4!
 

Quadjump

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262
Bruno and his nerves.

He wanted to give his all during the 3T+3T. But after the mistake he is usually not brave enough to fight for the second jump. Makes him kind of cute.

The 3STh is so insanely long when it is clean. Please do not try the 4STh, Aljona.

Well. Much work to do next weeks for these two.
 

umronnie

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The 3STh is so insanely long when it is clean. Please do not try the 4STh, Aljona.

Really. It doesn't make ANY sense.
The fantastic throw-2A gave them 5.84 points. The barely-landed-on-2-feet throw3A in the short gave them 5.50 points.
The beautiful throw-3S was worth 6.40

It's just math! They should put the throw-3S in the short and if she cannot do the Flip anymore than try a Loop. They are simply losing points.
 

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