Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[backspin]

IMO, one major problem is that, for decades, the "body of work" was relevant only to the decision of whether to grant a requested medical bye...and event then, the idea of dumping the silver medalist, but keeping the bronze medalist was unheard of. This is simply too new a criteria for anyone to expect people to adjust to it so quickly.

THIS. The whole using someone's (uninjured) 'body of work' making it possible for them to cherry pick their Olympic team is brand new. Since it had only been done once before (Ashley/Mirai '14), we didn't even know if they would continue with it this year. Clearly it is now the way they do things, but they really did change the game without making it clear that's what they intended to do. Going forward, everyone will have a much better understanding of how this goes down. For now, bad blood, bad feelings, and IMO, bad PR for US figure skating.

Also, the glaring issue with the "body of work" criteria, is that then to be fair, Bradie shouldn't be going because she has almost no track record. Taking that further, then technically no one who is a first year senior should ever get put on an Olympic team.

 

[vesperholly]

I can't read his mind, but I wonder if - 1) he felt that he had done enough to win the silver?, 2) he just gave up on the performance?, 3) did he assume that no matter what, the committee would select him based on BOW because he made it to the GPF? All those are troubling questions for an athlete who must compete at the highest level.

I still understand why the selection committee has more confidence in Adam than in Ross Miner (and I think even Than in Zhou). I understand why they really wanted to send Adam and Jason to the Olympics, but this attitude on the part of a top level skater concerns me.

Since you can't read Adam's mind, I wonder why you then go on to judge him for something you admitted you don't know???

 

[Vash01]

Since you can't read Adam's mind, I wonder why you then go on to judge him for something you admitted you don't know???

I didn't see the fighting spirit. I Can judge him on that.

 

[Seerek]

I see the potential of that danger. However, in the Adam v. Ross case, Ross had 11 seasons of doing senior internationals including receiving GP assignments and challenger assignments so he had ample opportunity to earn that BOW.

If there's one result that could have changed this entire storyline, it might have been 2017 U.S. Nationals - a decent free program from Ross Miner last year might have got him silver last year too. It would have been interesting to see what the USFSA would have done last year had Ross finished 2nd and Jason Brown 4th - who to send to 2017 Worlds w/Olympic slots on the line?

 

[Prancer]

THIS. The whole using someone's (uninjured) 'body of work' making it possible for them to cherry pick their Olympic team is brand new. Since it had only been done once before (Ashley/Mirai '14), we didn't even know if they would continue with it this year. Clearly it is now the way they do things, but they really did change the game without making it clear that's what they intended to do.

I think they made it clear that that's what they were going to do well before this and since Mirai/Ashley was the last Olympics, why wouldn't people see that as a precedent?

This is all about the team event at the Olympics. If people aren't aware of how that changed the game, they weren't paying attention.

 

[olympic]

FTR, I agree that the concept of expanding BOW as criteria for team selection needs to be refined but IMO, it’s a step in the right direction. I would personally prefer tier A include the GP series rather than the previous year Worlds. It is more recent and indicative of where a skater stands in the present

Unlike a skating power such as Russia, which can utilize Euros as a test skate to see who comes out on top when the situation is unclear, the US cannot do the same with 4CCs: They are usually in Asia and an exhausting trip before Worlds or Olympics is not recommended

 

[wickedwitch]

THIS. The whole using someone's (uninjured) 'body of work' making it possible for them to cherry pick their Olympic team is brand new. Since it had only been done once before (Ashley/Mirai '14), we didn't even know if they would continue with it this year. Clearly it is now the way they do things, but they really did change the game without making it clear that's what they intended to do. Going forward, everyone will have a much better understanding of how this goes down. For now, bad blood, bad feelings, and IMO, bad PR for US figure skating.

But it isn't just 2014 that sets precedence. Last season, Zhou had a mediocre fall, not qualifying for the JGPF and withdrawing from his one senior international. He then didn't get sent to worlds despite placing second.

So I really don't get how people thought they were going to ignore BoW with a team medal potentially on the line.

 

[VGThuy]

I think putting last year's Worlds so high is to take into consideration skaters who peak early and then have a rougher second half of the season and those skaters who have shown they know how to peak for the big events. Plus, it's the last big international competition that has all contenders from almost every eligible country competing. They have to rank it high as there is no Fall event that compares...not even the GPF really, but both of those are in the same tier. Maybe it should be given equal weight with the current season's GP series, though that means both would be tier 2 as I don't think they'd want to put the GP series on equal footing at the GPF.

This tier scheme seems to be a retroactive justification for putting Ashley ahead of Mirai in 2014. The irony is that it was used to keep Ashley off of the team this time around. It's sort of like Nakano's situation except, if I remember correctly, they changed the criteria so that someone with Nakano's record coming into 2006 Olympics would have had a better shot, and it ended up hurting Nakano for 2010 so she missed out both times.

 

[starrynight]

THIS. The whole using someone's (uninjured) 'body of work' making it possible for them to cherry pick their Olympic team is brand new. Since it had only been done once before (Ashley/Mirai '14), we didn't even know if they would continue with it this year. Clearly it is now the way they do things, but they really did change the game without making it clear that's what they intended to do. Going forward, everyone will have a much better understanding of how this goes down. For now, bad blood, bad feelings, and IMO, bad PR for US figure skating.

That's the thing about figure skating - it's so insular that it's difficult for anyone from the outside to understand what the heck is going on.

Of course there are plenty of people on here rolling their eyes saying 'well of course it comes down to body of work' - referencing something only very devoted followers of the sport would have even heard of and subjective criteria that you'd need to scour the internet for.

Meanwhile the USFSA is promoting Nationals as somewhere dreams can come true - whereas in reality the Olympic team had all but been chosen.

I just don't think it's been made clear enough to fans that Nationals didn't actually really mean much for Olympic selection. I would not have thought that a silver at Nationals would not have been enough.

The more I follow figure skating the more I realise that it is a very insular and elitist discipline that is not actually interested in mass appeal or being a real sport - no matter how much it might claim it does.

I'm just so sick of being constantly told that politicking, manipulation of scores, judges making deals with Feds etc is all just part of figure skating.

 

[VGThuy]

Nationals meant a whole lot. It just wasn't enough for some people with less stellar international records to overcome with people who have much better records. If Adam and Jason placed 8th and 9th, then I bet their placements on the team would not have been as easily justified and Ross would have had a better shot on the team. It's a mix of the USFS finally coming to terms with what a points game international competition is AND the team event affecting team selection.

 

[attyfan]

ITA that, while the tier system existed long enough to give notice, it has not been made clear how far Nats has fallen as a factor in team-picking. Not only was a silver insufficient to secure placement on the Oly team (normally, it would be the bronze medalist who got kicked), a silver isn't even enough to secure placement as first alternate.

 

[Prancer]

Of course there are plenty of people on here rolling their eyes saying 'well of course it comes down to body of work' - referencing something only very devoted followers of the sport would have even heard of and subjective criteria that you'd need to scour the internet for.

It's really not that difficult.

Meanwhile the USFSA is promoting Nationals as somewhere dreams can come true - whereas in reality the Olympic team had all but been chosen.

Where are they doing this? In what way?

Even casual fans who tune in only every now and then should have gotten the message--it was repeated over and over and over on NBC's coverage.

 

[kittyjake5]

I have a question which the answer I may have overlooked in this 30 page thread. I know that the vote was 11-1 to bump
Ross for Adam but was Vincent ever in the conversation to get bumped or was Vincent's BOW criteria good enough
that he was not in the conversation to get bumped.

 

[VGThuy]

ITA that, while the tier system existed long enough to give notice, it has not been made clear how far Nats has fallen as a factor in team-picking. Not only was a silver insufficient to secure placement on the Oly team (normally, it would be the bronze medalist who got kicked), a silver isn't even enough to secure placement as first alternate.

I think this issue could have been avoided if people knew exactly how each competition was weighted and how actual scores were taken into account. That part was left sort of to our imaginations. However, giving actual numerical value to each tier would make it almost extremely inflexible and I think the USFS wanted some discretion to be able to consider things with the selection committee's best judgment.

I have a question which the answer I may have overlooked in this 30 page thread. I know that the vote was 11-1 to bump
Ross for Adam but was Vincent ever in the conversation to get bumped or was Vincent's BOW criteria good enough
that he was not in the conversation to get bumped.

Just from what I've read, it seems Vincent's place was secure thanks to his BOW. Had he placed behind Adam and Jason (and Ross and Grant had Grant skated well), I don't think his BOW would have saved him from Adam and Jason and maybe not even Ross depending if Ross was still the silver medalist and Vincent was 6th.

 

[her grace]

I wonder what would have happened if Grant had skated well and placed above Vincent.

I wonder what would have happened if Zhou and Rippon's placements were switched. Would USFS been pleased they got two team members they wanted (Chen and Rippon) and kept Miner. Or would they have ditched him for Zhou . . . or Brown.

 

[vesperholly]

I think this issue could have been avoided if people knew exactly how each competition was weighted and how actual scores were taken into account. That part was left sort of to our imaginations. However, giving actual numerical value to each tier would make it almost extremely inflexible and I think the USFS wanted some discretion to be able to consider things with the selection committee's best judgment.

Someone did that earlier in this thread and it resulted in Jason Brown being the 2nd pick (Nathan 1 and Adam 3). I can only imagine the outcry then

 

[Seerek]

Interesting. That bronze medal from Mirai Nagasu from 2017 Four Continents proved to be a significant check box in her favour using BOW criteria.

 

[VGThuy]

Someone did that earlier in this thread and it resulted in Jason Brown being the 2nd pick (Nathan 1 and Adam 3). I can only imagine the outcry then

How were the percentages? What if Nationals was like given 50% or more weight?

 

[jlai]

Because of min tes requirements isu set, you can't go from winning us sectionals to nationals to world or 4cc any more. Now isu said you cannot use jr scores for seniors right? Because of this tes min, world selection is already limited to those 10-12 elite skaters. USFS didn't do this. But the good thing is that it forces USFS to send skaters to internationals just in case they make it big at nationals and then they have the minimum requirements. Because of this most skaters who could reasonably have a shot at the o team have at least one assignment to prove themselves. The only skaters losing out are the ones who don't have a shot at gp like Angela. But even she has two sr Bs

 

[vesperholly]

How were the percentages? What if Nationals was like given 50% or more weight?

I can't find the post but they assigned points to the tiers and the finishes. IIRC Ross was pretty far back even with the silver.

 

[VGThuy]

Because of min tes requirements isu set, you can't go from winning us sectionals to nationals to world or 4cc any more. Now isu said you cannot use jr scores for seniors right? Because of this tes min, world selection is already limited to those 10-12 elite skaters. USFS didn't do this. But the good thing is that it forces USFS to send skaters to internationals just in case they make it big at nationals and then they have the minimum requirements. Because of this most skaters who could reasonably have a shot at the o team have at least one assignment to prove themselves. The only skaters losing out are the ones who don't have a shot at gp like Angela. But even she has two sr Bs

That's a very good point. Now that Worlds use TES minimums as opposed to qualifications rounds, it really is impossible for skaters that come from no where to make it to the 4CC and Worlds team unless they are given a quick Challenger after Nationals to get the min. TES.

 

[Anita18]

Skaters do pop jumps into singles sometimes. What was unique about Adam was that hebpopped two in a row toward the end of his performance. After the first pop we should have seen an effort on his part to complete the next jump. Had he rotated the next jump and fallen on it, it wouldn't have been such a disastrous thing, because it would have shown that he was fighting. We didn't see any fight. He had fallen on the quad lutz, but he recovered from that. However, toward the end he didn't bother to recover from the first pop. He did not fight till the end.

I can't read his mind, but I wonder if - 1) he felt that he had done enough to win the silver?, 2) he just gave up on the performance?, 3) did he assume that no matter what, the committee would select him based on BOW because he made it to the GPF? All those are troubling questions for an athlete who must compete at the highest level.

Adam did not give up on the performance. I’ve seen skaters do that and Adam didn’t do that. He was mesmerizing to watch all the way through, didn’t slow down on jump approaches. (Max didn’t give up on his program this year either, although last year he looked like he literally wanted to get off the ice halfway through. Neither man performed like that Saturday night.)

Adam needs work on his focus and concentration, but I didn’t feel any sense of entitlement st all from him.

In general I think we should give skaters the benefit of the doubt. Triple jumps take an immense amount of concentration and I wouldn’t assume that any skater purposely pops a jump because they think they did enough to podium. That’s ridiculous.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think Adam gave up at all. I think that fluke pop distracted him for the next jump with so much on the line. It was something he's not known for AND it's something he can learn from. If he had a history of giving up and popping jumps, then yeah I can see the point, but this was a bit unusual for him.

 

[annie_mg]

I can't read his mind, but I wonder if - 1) he felt that he had done enough to win the silver?, 2) he just gave up on the performance?, 3) did he assume that no matter what, the committee would select him based on BOW because he made it to the GPF? All those are troubling questions for an athlete who must compete at the highest level.

How about a 4)he simply messed up two jumps?

Why is that not considered as a possibility? Why should he have to have popped them intentionally?

 

[Bellanca]

Maybe in a lot of Americans' eyes, yes. But as a young fan at the time, I learned a valuable lesson about Grand Prix Final in 1997-98 season (was it still called Champions Series Final then?) Tara Lipinski won with a clean program, just weeks before finishing 2nd to kwan at US Nationals. In most Americans eyes, Kwan was the one to beat in Nagano after her stirring programs in Philadelphia at Nationals. After Kwan skated cleanly at the Olympics (yes, the flip was clean if a tad bit wonky), I thought the gold was hers, case closed. But the International panel thought otherwise, rewarding their Series Final champion (more technical, less artistic) with the gold. The point is not to debate that win, but rather highlight when I learned how much more important international reputation and success was than just National success/popularity. So yes, since then, I have always considered the GPF a major competition. The fact that many on this board believe Nathan Chen to be an OGM contender (based on his success at grand prix final and grand prix events in general) is telling. Remember, he has never won a senior world medal. I'd argue also that Zagitova is an OGM threat in ladies, again based on grand prix events and grand prix final. It matters.

I think one significant problem in America re the indifference toward the GP Series begins with a skater's coach/coaching team and their general attitude and disregard toward the series. However, I must emphasize that I am not speaking of or including every coach in the U.S.A., but I do feel that a handful of them are lukewarm and dismissive enough of the series for it to generally affect, influence and rub off on their students.

The GPS and GPF are kicked around pretty good by some coaches and fans, alike, tbh, as to its importance or lack thereof when it comes to a skater’s BOW until it becomes a necessary tool to warrant or justify something, as I’d mentioned in another post.

I, too, have always believed that the Grand Prix Series is a major competition and deserves much more respect and credit than it receives.

There have been skaters who’ve viewed the GPS/GPF as throwaway competitions, believing that their Nationals and Worlds, in a non-Olympic year, are the only competitions that really matter, which I find unfortunate and ironic especially if one needs to build up their BOW.

IMO, this year, U.S. Nats were either critical or not depending on the skater in question and their attempt to make the Olympic team.

 

[vesperholly]

Because of min tes requirements isu set, you can't go from winning us sectionals to nationals to world or 4cc any more. Now isu said you cannot use jr scores for seniors right? Because of this tes min, world selection is already limited to those 10-12 elite skaters. USFS didn't do this. But the good thing is that it forces USFS to send skaters to internationals just in case they make it big at nationals and then they have the minimum requirements. Because of this most skaters who could reasonably have a shot at the o team have at least one assignment to prove themselves. The only skaters losing out are the ones who don't have a shot at gp like Angela. But even she has two sr Bs

And that very reason is why the Junior Ladies silver medalist isn't going to Junior Worlds but the bronze medalist is. Ting Cui (J3) was sent out on the JGP this fall where she earned TES minimums. Pooja Kalyan (J2) was not assigned any internationals.

 

[flyingsit]

I think if Adam/Jason/Max were all buried in the 8-10 range, and Ross was 2nd- Ross would probably be going. But Adam wasn't exactly buried, he was just off the podium.

Nope. Max Aaron finished in 9th, after 8th last year... and he's going to 4CC above Grant Hochstein who was 4th last year and 5th this year. So they were going to send who they wanted, no matter what.

 

[jiejie]

I think putting last year's Worlds so high is to take into consideration skaters who peak early and then have a rougher second half of the season and those skaters who have shown they know how to peak for the big events.

Maybe. However, my alternate theory is that the entire idea of seasonal "peaking" which seems to be so ingrained into US senior-level skaters and coaches, needs to be put in the dumpster and set on fire. And maybe the USFS, by moving to a BOW system, is implicitly encouraging the abandonment of the Peak Theory.

While the underlying systems of skater development aren't the same, US skaters/coaches could take a page out of the Russian ladies' playbook and view every competition as a place where they must "peak." In other words, be prepared to hit the ground running from the very beginning of the season and do or die every competition, rather than treat the Sept-Dec competitions as some sort of warm-up appetizer tray before the main course events in Jan-March. This would include treating Challengers and Senior B's as serious high-stakes competitions in addition to the GP series. While some US skaters do this already, it's been all too obvious that others have not.

It's fairly clear in September/October, which skaters have fully fleshed-out and practiced programs, though the skating might not be clean....vs those who are still trying to put something coherent together, and in September are where they should have been back in July.

 

[Vash01]

How about a 4)he simply messed up two jumps?

Why is that not considered as a possibility? Why should he have to have popped them intentionally?

I never said he intentionally popped them. I don't think any skater messes up jumps intentionally. It can be due to lack of concentration or fatigue or just not trying hard enough, or as Scott says just a reflex from the body. That is fine for one jump but two in a row?

 

[skatingguy]

Watching Adam's program back, it seems like he didn't set up properly for the salchow and couldn't get into the air to rotate. Then the lutz came up and he was still thinking about the salchow and bam, single. Then he refocused and did the great spin to finish the program, but of course the damage was done.