Papadakis/Cizeron #7 - A Matter of Confidentiality

[aftershocks]

I hope the next thread is entitled "Gabi and Guillaume Reveal All," but maybe that has been used already.

I don't really get the title nor what your post is hinting at, but I've kinda been absent in the P/C fan threads.

Gaby/Guillaume always reveal all that needs to or can be revealed by artists at the top of their game. They are as honest and forthright as they can be, and which they do not have to be anyway with fan hordes. If it's about music, theme or direction they are planning this season, let it all unfold as it will. Skaters can take their time making their plans known. For Gaby/Guillaume, the mystery and the magic is their own, and the creativity comes from a place even they cannot and should not attempt to describe. Quite often what is, simply is whether or not anyone can wrap their heads around it. Many go through life never seeing, understanding or accepting what's in front of their eyes. It often takes a lifetime to unwrap each of our own individual mysteries. People we are close to we often don't know things about, or are surprised to find out unknown details about at their funerals.

That's life. Let's enjoy what we can while we can, and cease trying to know everything. It's impossible. Gaby & Guillaume, I sense, deeply understand there are many mysteries and epiphanies that need not be analyzed, endlessly questioned or solved. They express what they can in the art of their movement and through their exquisite partnership and in their many pursuits off the ice, and in their sweet kindnesses toward their friends. For me, that's enough. I feel so deeply grateful to witness them in this their time, in so many beautiful moments, on a unique journey that has many revelations out of our full grasp ...

 

[barbarafan]

The Shibs are off this season but I understand your comment is more general and applies to both current & next seasons.

When the ISU released the new ID scales of values with GOEs from -5 to +5, they also came with a (quite long) list of criteria to help the judges discriminate between 11 different grades of execution (as Icetigger pointed out). It was also said that +5 GOE would not be awarded like hotcakes but only for the very best performances, taking into account new criteria such as the level of creativity/innovation (which is a bit subjective) and so on. In other words, "performing lifts very well" may not be enough to get GOE +5. I am not sure all judges will apply the rules exactly the same way and I expect discrepancies this season, at least until GPF, the time for convergence and synchronisation.

Now PCS top scores (eg 9.50 to 10.00) seem - so far - to be granted quite generously (especially at the Nepela Trophy!), which is not good news as G&G can really make the difference with their direct competitors with their components score. I would expect both +5 GOE and PCS from 9.50 to 10.00 to be awarded with the same level of requirements.

In theory it makes sense but the judges who have walked into the competition already decided (or instructed) to give a certain team or certain countries the max and we will see lifts etc with level 1 or 2 with plus 5 GOE. I have seen quite a few 5's here and there but did not jot them down. I think it is a bit early in the season for any +5's if the level is not a 4. I don't know how it will play out over the season but those are my concerns.

 

[thvu]

In theory it makes sense but the judges who have walked into the competition already decided (or instructed) to give a certain team or certain countries the max and we will see lifts etc with level 1 or 2 with plus 5 GOE. I have seen quite a few 5's here and there but did not jot them down. I think it is a bit early in the season for any +5's if the level is not a 4. I don't know how it will play out over the season but those are my concerns.

The difference between a Level 1 and 4 for a lift can simply be not holding a position for 3 seconds, but 2.9. A .1 second difference would have no effect on GOE, so I don't think that extends to all elements.

 

[alain06fr]

In theory it makes sense but the judges who have walked into the competition already decided (or instructed) to give a certain team or certain countries the max and we will see lifts etc with level 1 or 2 with plus 5 GOE. I have seen quite a few 5's here and there but did not jot them down. I think it is a bit early in the season for any +5's if the level is not a 4.

True, it's probably a bit too early to see many +5 GOEs... regardless of the levels. We can rely on all couples to improve their performances in the coming months.

In theory, a level1 lift should be quite easy to perform perfectly. Anyhow, when awarding GOEs, scoring judges have no idea what level an element has been called so +5 GOEs should be awarded whatever level is granted.

 

[Icetigger]

I think giving 9.75s for performances which are 5 and a half levels short of maxing out on levels are also questionable.

S/B's twizzles got a level one for the RD at Finlandia, but got one 5 and mostly 4s for GOE. But there looked ostensibly nothing wrong with them, so it much have been to do with the minutiae of the rules which the judges wouldn't be expected to call.

 

[barbarafan]

I think giving 9.75s for performances which are 5 and a half levels short of maxing out on levels are also questionable.

S/B's twizzles got a level one for the RD at Finlandia, but got one 5 and mostly 4s for GOE. But there looked ostensibly nothing wrong with them, so it much have been to do with the minutiae of the rules which the judges wouldn't be expected to call.

ITA the new GOE's are because the scores were maxing out 10's in PCS all over the place and as skills are improving and getting more innovative all the time how can you compare teams when so many were getting almost all level 3's.


to be having GOE plus 5 already in the season when all programs will have so much mileage and several teams have not skated yet where are the marks supposed to go?

 

[alain06fr]

I think giving 9.75s for performances which are 5 and a half levels short of maxing out on levels are also questionable.

Yep, definitely. All these 9.75s awarded to S/K at Nepela and then to S/B at Finlandia are for sure questionable. There's now a competition between these two couples to take the Russian ice dance leadership now that B/S retired and I guess the Russian Fed pushes for S/B or S/K to be in the top3.

ITA the new GOE's are because the scores were maxing out 10's in PCS all over the place and as skills are improving and getting more innovative all the time how can you compare teams when so many were getting almost all level 3's.

You're right. I think most of us expect the new GOE's to give a much better accuracy to discriminate between great and great AND innovative performances (as one example)

 

[Icetigger]

to be having GOE plus 5 already in the season when all programs will have so much mileage and several teams have not skated yet where are the marks supposed to go?

But there is a system for these GOEs- and if a team true deserves it, they should get a high GOE. However, I do also think they are coming up too high at present, the judges will have to learn to self-moderate, or they will have bring in some relativism (esp with regard to the more subjective criteria- such as innovation and creativity, musicality, nuance, speed etc).

Another likely reason for GOE's this high, however, is that there is just too many features available on them. For example, the twizzles has something like 13 available features and you only need 8 for a level 5; and some of them are a bit unnecessary

The running edge out of the first two twizzles (potential double feature- so one quarter of the features needed for a level 5) for example seems a duplicate of the smooth and effortless double feature.

If P/C can hit every one of those 13 or so features and get level 5, and if another team only hits eight, but they get the same score- how is the system differentiating between teams.

I see what the judges (or at least the tech panel) are trying to achieve with the new GOE scoring system, but I think there is inherent positive bias that sort of throws the average score for a reasonably done element out as being a three GOE (unless there is a very noticeable mistake).

There is also a confusion between what is being executed (which should determine the BV) and how it is executed (which should determine the GOE), as there was with Tanos and arm positions in singles skating, which have now been got rid of and the system much simplified.

I think it's going to take a while for the judges to reflect on the system and figure out how to use it to get the right results IMO. Which some would argue, was never the point of IJS.

 

[lauravvv]

Icetigger - You mention level 5 several times in your last post. You meant + 5 GOE, didn't you? I believe you know that levels and GOE are not the same. GOE (in this case, also +5 GOE) is given by judges, not the technical panel. The technical panel decides the levels.

 

[alain06fr]

If P/C can hit every one of those 13 or so features and get level 5, and if another team only hits eight, but they get the same score- how is the system differentiating between teams.

Yep, and on top of this, some criteria (within this list of 13 or 14) are mandatory to get +4 or +5 GOE. In other words, scoring judges need to find out how many criteria were met and which one(s)?

There is also a confusion between what is being executed (which should determine the BV) and how it is executed (which should determine the GOE), as there was with Tanos and arm positions in singles skating, which have now been got rid of and the system much simplified.

TS, ATS and TC (when called) must check all the key points for a given element and evaluate which ones are met and which ones are not met to decide on the level.

Scoring judges focus on the timing, the choreography and the package being offered.

Identifying each element is also one of the critical tasks of the Technical Panel as this information *must be* fully verified prior being handed over to the scoring judges. Once the Tech Panel commits this information, scoring judges will see on their computers a msg like "element verified". The Tech Panel must definitely check in case of doubt!
At the French Masters, for one junior ice dance couple, the Tech Panel changed ChSpn to RoLi after reviewing the element and determining that he lifted her by error by more than 1.5 revolutions. All scoring judges expected of course to see a ChSpn and evaluated by anticipation the GOE mark for this type of element but revised the GOE after the element got confirmed as RoLi.
At Worlds, in Milan, another example with the Polish couple (Natalia KALISZEK / Maksym SPODYRIEV), we all remember the long wait whilst the Tech Panel were deciding. Because of their mistake by the girl being lifted off the ice, all their elements changed after that move so at the end, they were getting elements wiped out because they'd already done.

 

[Icetigger]

Icetigger - You mention level 5 several times in your last post. You meant + 5 GOE, didn't you? I believe you know that levels and GOE are not the same. GOE (in this case, also +5 GOE) is given by judges, not the technical panel. The technical panel decides the levels.

Yeah of course- level 5 Execution.... as opposed to level -5 execution. LOL I probably see the GOE in terms of levels (and grade and level are pretty synonymous are they not?) because +5 GOE (as elsewhere denoted) denotes a level of points rewarded, and not an actual number of points, and I like a way of phrasing it that makes that clear from the offset. I know the official speak is probably that levels are for the base value of the elements, but I am certainly looking at some of the level 4s awarded for GOE and thinking, should there really be only one level, in terms of how well an element can be done, above that? Was that really a just under top-notch element in terms of execution? Plus, as I said, you know, relativism needs to come in to play here, and when you are comparing and contrasting, you really are thinking in terms of levels, regardless of what the official nomenclature is.....

In the end of the day, it's all about the number of points you are rewarded, and where that places you relative to all competition; so it's levels all round for me, whether it's BV, GOE or PCS.

I see why you are confused though by what I said because of this sentence "I see what the judges (or at least the tech panel) are trying to achieve with the new GOE scoring system". I don't mean the tech panel in terms of individual competition, I mean the tech panel in terms of those members of the ISU who have devised the new system..... the Ice Dance technical committee (its proper name) two of whose members also presented the video seminar about the new GOE system. Apologies for the confusion!

 

[Icetigger]

Identifying each element is also one of the critical tasks of the Technical Panel as this information *must be* fully verified prior being handed over to the scoring judges. Once the Tech Panel commits this information, scoring judges will see on their computers a msg like "element verified". The Tech Panel must definitely check in case of doubt!
At the French Masters, for one junior ice dance couple, the Tech Panel changed ChSpn to RoLi after reviewing the element and determining that he lifted her by error by more than 1.5 revolutions. All scoring judges expected of course to see a ChSpn and evaluated by anticipation the GOE mark for this type of element but revised the GOE after the element got confirmed as RoLi.
At Worlds, in Milan, another example with the Polish couple (Natalia KALISZEK / Maksym SPODYRIEV), we all remember the long wait whilst the Tech Panel were deciding. Because of their mistake by the girl being lifted off the ice, all their elements changed after that move so at the end, they were getting elements wiped out because they'd already done.

Thanks for clarifying this......

 

[alain06fr]

Judges draw for countries on 2019 ISU championships (Europeans, 4Continents & Worlds) took place this morning in Geneva but we need to wait a bit to get the results officially published by the ISU.

 

[Peepsquick]

Judges draw for countries on 2019 ISU championships (Europeans, 4Continents & Worlds) took place this morning in Geneva but we need to wait a bit to get the results officially published by the ISU.

Thanks for the information Alain!

 

[laviemn]

Descripton of their RD at the bottom
https://www.skate-info-glace.com/articles-2018-2019/masters-2018-jour-2/

Gabriella
https://twitter.com/yoshtsh/status/1049268105275269121

For people who don't watch juniors at all, if you love watching Guillaume skate you'll probably enjoy this team. The boy reminds me a lot of Guillaume with his flexible upper body, the way he gets down in his knees and close to the ice, the way he carries his movement through to his fingertips better than many senior men. To me this team is kinda, sorta what Chock/Cizeron might look like in a bizarro alternate universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82NOG86dP0

 

[Peepsquick]

Wonderful description of Gabi and Guillaume's RD!
The rest of the article is also very interesting. Totally worth reading in its entirety.
Thank you laviemn!

 

[lauravvv]

Descripton of their RD at the bottom
https://www.skate-info-glace.com/articles-2018-2019/masters-2018-jour-2/

Thanks a lot, laviemn. A really good article and a beautiful description of Gabriella and Guillaume's dance - had to use Google Translate, but this time the meaning came through really well (or at least it was the impression).

 

[laviemn]

They're performing at the Madrid show of Fernandez's tour in Dec
http://www.revolutiononice.com/index_en.html#patinadores

 

[cocotaffy]

They're performing at the Madrid show of Fernandez's tour in Dec
http://www.revolutiononice.com/index_en.html#patinadores

Someone should tell them they messed up P/C's world titles years, at least the count is right
Every time I read their achievements summarized like that, I'm impressed by what they have achieved in such a short time and at such a young age.
In the meantime, could we hope for a new article in L'équipe according to the hashtag under this cheerful photo ?

 

[Icetigger]

Judges draw for countries on 2019 ISU championships (Europeans, 4Continents & Worlds) took place this morning in Geneva but we need to wait a bit to get the results officially published by the ISU.

https://www.isu.org/communications/18289-isu-communication-2204/file

No Canadian or US judge at Worlds. Strong bias towards Eastern Europe (5 out of 13), 2 Western European (FRA and GER), 3 Asian (KOR, JAP and CHN), leaving Australia, Israel and Turkey. Europeans a good balance of Western and Eastern European- a ratio of 5:6; plus Turkey and Israel.

Ironically, China got a judge in all four disciplines at Worlds... The only country to do so....

 

[alain06fr]

redundant hence deleted post

 

[jujubi64]

It seems (ig stories) they trained outside Gabois yesterday, in maurice richard arena. Gadbois is full?

 

[Icetigger]

It seems (ig stories) they trained outside Gabois yesterday, in maurice richard arena. Gadbois is full?

Let's hope they needed a rink to themselves for full run throughs of their completed programmes!

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think it's unusual for even top teams to schedule practice time at outside rinks for more time and space, etc. I remember hearing about Tanith/Ben and Meryl/Charlie renting out practice time at DSC some times.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I don't think it's unusual for even top teams to schedule practice time at outside rinks for more time and space, etc. I remember hearing about Tanith/Ben and Meryl/Charlie renting out practice time at DSC some times.

Yeah it's pretty normal in Canada, rinks gets full easily and sometimes you have to share times with the dreaded hockey players. In fact, yesterday TCC took some skaters to Oakville (about an hour drive away) for empty ice to do full throughs. That is our situation here.

 

[honey]

It seems (ig stories) they trained outside Gabois yesterday, in maurice richard arena. Gadbois is full?

I’m pretty sure all the Gadbois teams sometimes use the Maurice Richard arena. I’m almost certain H/D and V/M posted pictures or clips from that arena last season. And wasn’t the footage from TSL in the summer of 2016 of P/C in this arena as well? I don’t think this is unusual at all.

 

[alain06fr]

Yeah it's pretty normal in Canada, rinks gets full easily and sometimes you have to share times with the dreaded hockey players. In fact, yesterday TCC took some skaters to Oakville (about an hour drive away) for empty ice to do full throughs. That is our situation here.

Euhhh... Aren’t we talking about a “school” presented as the best Worldwide ice dance training center with 24 couples?
Among them the World champions, the silver medalists and most of the top ten teams at last Worlds in Milan. It is therefore ecpected that these couples can rely on exceptional training conditions, easy access to various rinks supervised by a large team of top class coaches and of course a perfect organization.

 

[binbinwinwin]

Euhhh... Aren’t we talking about a “school” presented as the best Worldwide ice dance training center with 24 couples?
Among them the World champions, the silver medalists and most of the top ten teams at last Worlds in Milan. It is therefore ecpected that these couples can rely on exceptional training conditions, easy access to various rinks supervised by a large team of top class coaches and of course a perfect organization.

IDK TCC has a greater legacy and more medals than Gadbois and yet their skaters still travel everywhere for ice time. Solo ice time is precious when you have to share ice with 10+ other skaters at a time. Aren't you close to them? Ask them yourself

 

[Andora]

IDK TCC has a greater legacy and more medals than Gadbois and yet their skaters still travel everywhere for ice time. Solo ice time is precious when you have to share ice with 10+ other skaters at a time. Aren't you close to them? Ask them yourself

Yeah, @alain06fr - stop trying to convince us they need to leave, and keep trying to convince P&C to leave the school that put them on the map.

 

[alain06fr]

Yeah, @alain06fr - stop trying to convince us they need to leave, and keep trying to convince P&C to leave the school that put them on the map.

Yeah @Andorra, stop broadcasting fake news! P/C are big enough to decide themselves what they have to do!