Papadakis/Cizeron #10 - Waacking All The Way To Beijing

[Bigbird]

What do you think about the changes? I didn't think I would say that EVER but I am not sold on the new (old) feature ...

Not the soup yet. needs more milage. Romaine is stressing Gabby out. Way too many changes in such a short time.

EDIT: But having watched it twice now, it is easier to digest and unbelievably elegant. They just need to polish. Beautiful dance.

 

[GreenGan]

I wish they had changed their rotiationnal lift and not their candle lift. Also I think I like the old one foot step sequence better than this new one. Nonetheless the mistakes, this program feels more whole than what I saw at Grenoble so I'm not mad at all.

 

[Enchanted]

It looks like they’ve had to do a lot of PR stuff before and during the competition. There were some pictures of some photoshoot they were doing today before the FD etc. I wouldn’t make any judgements based on this competition. Nationals are often their weakest competition.

 

[escaflowne9282]

I have to admit, I liked the candle lift more than this one. I'm not crazy about that particular change.

 

[cocotaffy]

Lots of changes and I found them more connected to the program finally. I like the changes, it elevated the program to an even more elegant one. The character step is much more dynamic with a zigzaging pattern, more interesting then a pure straight line facing the judges imo. It makes it look like they are dancing moving around a room. Ending is also more dynamic covering more ice. Overall, the program feels more vibrant and less subdued. Don't mind the new lift, not crazy about it but better than that clunky shaky candle one. Shallow note: love Gaby's eye make up and hair-do.

 

[MarieM]

I hate the changes. The program is becoming bland.

 

[annie_mg]

I quite like the changes. It's finally coming together.

 

[Orm Irian]

I agree that the new (old? It reminds me of Shape of You) lift needs a bit of polishing or reshaping to really fit, but it's smoother than the candlestick lift in both the entry and the dismount so it's already flowing with the program better even though it's less visually striking. It feels to me like the tango elements are threaded a bit more consistently through the program now, and I like the way the whole piece builds and the contrasts between angularity and smoothness throughout. Shame about Gabi's freak slip on the twizzles, but better here than anywhere else I guess!

 

[muffinplus]

Yeah, no, I don't like this lift change either..I never really liked this lift (yes, I think it's from Shape of You)... keep the candlestick one. Will watch the rest of it later

 

[Icedream]

I agree that the new (old? It reminds me of Shape of You) lift needs a bit of polishing or reshaping to really fit, but it's smoother than the candlestick lift in both the entry and the dismount so it's already flowing with the program better even though it's less visually striking. It feels to me like the tango elements are threaded a bit more consistently through the program now, and I like the way the whole piece builds and the contrasts between angularity and smoothness throughout. Shame about Gabi's freak slip on the twizzles, but better here than anywhere else I guess!

It is the first Mozart lift

 

[nuge]

I would like a different ending position rather than just standing there

 

[bcash]

Quick thoughts on the changes:

Stationary Lift for the RD. The rotation fits the echo-y effect of that part of the music well, but the previous curved lift continued/extended the visual/kinetic momentum coming out of the no-touch step sequence, and it covered more ice. I understand they want to avoid having the same lift for both programs. But this rotational lift is from the 2019-20 season. I feel neutral on this change. (Also, does this lift truncate the final "waacking"?)

OFS for the FD. Like I mentioned, the new version covers more ice and flows pretty well, but doesn't really differentiate them (to the extent OFS patterns can, these days) from other teams and the tango kick looks muted on TV.

Straight-line Lift. I thought the candle stick lift looked a bit out of character (gymnastics-like) but this tweaked "Mozart" lift looked more effortful as Gabi looked as if she was "climbing onto" the final position, which is nice but isn't held for long enough, unfortunately because half the time allowed for the lift was used up by just getting into position.

Diagonal Step Sequence. The camera angles didn't adequately capture the overall shape and missed some details, but again, it seemed to cover more ice, while using more separation and retrogression to create bigger dynamic shifts. Good idea to place the twizzles further into the sequence and at separate points for Gabi and Guillaume, instead of at the beginning, right after the proper twizzle sequence, though the original placement has a nice musicality to it.

Spin exit. Smart and elegant way to weave in some tango colors.

Character Steps. A little bit better --- there's a bit more of a sense of continuous motion. But the fundamental problem remains, which lies with the choreography itself. I again echo Charlie White --- I don't quite understand it. There's a lot of manufactured angst here. I look forward to them finding a new/deeper connection to the music.

The Crescendo. Best timing yet? Finally they were not late. Still, this "To Build a Home" head-back leg-forward extension feels a little light for this stretch of the music, and the curved lift that follows feels a bit simple in shape, so the overall impression is that of the music overwhelming everything.

Ending. Musically I've always liked how this little after-ripple is treated, with a pretty rotational lift that picks up the momentum again before the final "rest", even though the lift itself might not be the most difficult or innovative. I like the way the two of them come to each other in a hold again after the separate twizzling moves. The movements and steps of this ending segment seem better connected, with improved flow.


Miscellaneous:
Excellent recovery for Gabi after the second set twizzle mishap --- that's their training showing. Elegant hair-do.
This choreography still has too much face-touching (self-face-touching) which to me inevitably suggests self-absorption and forced emoting. They are above that sort of thing. Could they still bring a master-choreographer in (Dean or someone from the serious dance world) to polish it and make change where necessary?

 

[Bigbird]

Quick thoughts on the changes:

Stationary Lift for the RD. The rotation fits the echo-y effect of that part of the music well, but the previous curved lift continued/extended the visual/kinetic momentum coming out of the no-touch step sequence, and it covered more ice. I understand they want to avoid having the same lift for both programs. But this rotational lift is from the 2019-20 season. I feel neutral on this change. (Also, does the rotational lift truncate the final "waacking"?

OFS for the FD. Like I mentioned, the new version covers more ice and flows pretty well, but doesn't really differentiate them (to the extent OFS patterns can, these days) from other teams and the tango kick looks muted on TV.

Straight-line Lift. I thought the candle stick lift looked a bit out of character (gymnastics-like) but this tweaked "Mozart" lift looked more effortful as Gabi looked as if she was "climbing onto" the final position, which is nice but isn't held for long enough, unfortunately because half the time allowed for the lift was used up by just getting into position.

Diagonal Step Sequence. The camera angles didn't adequately capture the overall shape and missed some details, but again, it seemed to cover more ice, while using more separation and retrogression to create bigger dynamic shifts. Good idea to place the twizzles further into the sequence and at separate points for Gabi and Guillaume, instead of at the beginning, right after the proper twizzle sequence, though the original placement has a nice musicality to it.

Spin exit. Smart and elegant way to weave in some tango colors.

Character Steps. A little bit better --- there's a bit more of a sense of continuous motion. But the fundamental problem remains, which lies with the choreography itself. I again echo Charlie White --- I don't quite understand it. There's a lot of manufactured angst here. I look forward to them finding a new/deeper connection to the music.

The Crescendo. Best timing yet? Finally they were not late. Still, this "To Build a Home" head-back leg-forward extension feels a little light for this stretch of the music, and the curved lift that follows feels a bit simple in shape, so the overall impression is that of the music overwhelming everything.

Ending. Musically I've always liked how this little after-ripple is treated, with a pretty rotational lift that picks up the momentum again before the final "rest", even though the lift itself might not be the most difficult or innovative. I like the way the two of them come to each other in a hold again after the separate twizzling moves. The movements and steps of this ending segment seem better connected, with improved flow.


Miscellaneous:
Excellent recovery for Gabi after the second set twizzle mishap --- that's their training showing. Elegant hair-do.
This choreography still has too much face-touching (self-face-touching) which to me inevitably suggest self-absorption and forced emoting. They are above that sort of thing. Could they still bring a master-choreographer in (Dean or someone from the serious dance world) to polish it and make change where necessary?

Respectfully, I disagree with most of this, I think the dance has been finally decluttered and it breathes in unison with the music. Overall I think they have something amazing. Nothing else needs to be changed they just need to polish to perfection. They had some mistakes period. If they simply stay vertical gold is theirs. Nobody comes close; not with respect to composition or performance, interpretation, musicality and skating skills for both programmes.

 

[Peepsquick]

Quick thoughts on the changes:

Stationary Lift for the RD. The rotation fits the echo-y effect of that part of the music well, but the previous curved lift continued/extended the visual/kinetic momentum coming out of the no-touch step sequence, and it covered more ice. I understand they want to avoid having the same lift for both programs. But this rotational lift is from the 2019-20 season. I feel neutral on this change. (Also, does this lift truncate the final "waacking"?)

OFS for the FD. Like I mentioned, the new version covers more ice and flows pretty well, but doesn't really differentiate them (to the extent OFS patterns can, these days) from other teams and the tango kick looks muted on TV.

Straight-line Lift. I thought the candle stick lift looked a bit out of character (gymnastics-like) but this tweaked "Mozart" lift looked more effortful as Gabi looked as if she was "climbing onto" the final position, which is nice but isn't held for long enough, unfortunately because half the time allowed for the lift was used up by just getting into position.

Diagonal Step Sequence. The camera angles didn't adequately capture the overall shape and missed some details, but again, it seemed to cover more ice, while using more separation and retrogression to create bigger dynamic shifts. Good idea to place the twizzles further into the sequence and at separate points for Gabi and Guillaume, instead of at the beginning, right after the proper twizzle sequence, though the original placement has a nice musicality to it.

Spin exit. Smart and elegant way to weave in some tango colors.

Character Steps. A little bit better --- there's a bit more of a sense of continuous motion. But the fundamental problem remains, which lies with the choreography itself. I again echo Charlie White --- I don't quite understand it. There's a lot of manufactured angst here. I look forward to them finding a new/deeper connection to the music.

The Crescendo. Best timing yet? Finally they were not late. Still, this "To Build a Home" head-back leg-forward extension feels a little light for this stretch of the music, and the curved lift that follows feels a bit simple in shape, so the overall impression is that of the music overwhelming everything.

Ending. Musically I've always liked how this little after-ripple is treated, with a pretty rotational lift that picks up the momentum again before the final "rest", even though the lift itself might not be the most difficult or innovative. I like the way the two of them come to each other in a hold again after the separate twizzling moves. The movements and steps of this ending segment seem better connected, with improved flow.


Miscellaneous:
Excellent recovery for Gabi after the second set twizzle mishap --- that's their training showing. Elegant hair-do.
This choreography still has too much face-touching (self-face-touching) which to me inevitably suggests self-absorption and forced emoting. They are above that sort of thing. Could they still bring a master-choreographer in (Dean or someone from the serious dance world) to polish it and make change where necessary?

I bolded all the areas where I agree with you ... I am in total agreement about the "manufactured Angst ", "self-face-touching" and this is symptomatic for what I have been grappling with since the beginning: this FD doesn't grab me like the others and I think it is because it looks more about representation of emotions than about emotions themselves. Not only is it very conceptual but the music, though exquisite, doesn't "carry" them or us the same way. With the exception of the character steps, the music doesn't allow for contrasted segments and its subtlety makes it very challenging to create "moments" for the casual viewer (by that I mean people watching the Olympics, for example). I am also puzzled as to why they did not work on introducing new, original elements in the spins ou the lift ... I am hoping they will. It has the feel of a piece under construction with placeholders.
This said, the FD has a magic of its own and I'm pretty sure it will cast its spell by the time the OG comes along. I just wonder if they spent more time on the RD? It is pretty perfect already and must have required a lot of training ... they make it look way easier than it is!

 

[Ka3sha]

Match TV interview with Gabi's mother (in Russian, hope google translation is accurate, if not - feel free to ask )

«ÐоÑÑоÑÐ½Ð°Ñ â единÑÑÐ²ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ ÑоÑÑийÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ð¾Ð´Ð¸Ð½Ð¾ÑниÑа, коÑоÑÐ°Ñ Ð·Ð°Ð¿Ð°Ð»Ð° в дÑÑÑ». ÐÑÐ¸Ð·Ð½Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð¼Ð°Ð¼Ñ ÑÑанÑÑзÑкой Ñемпионки

ÐоÑÐµÐ¼Ñ ÐÐ°Ð¿Ð°Ð´Ð°ÐºÐ¸Ñ Ð¸ СизеÑон пÑопÑÑÑили пÑоÑлÑй Ñезон и как дома ждÑÑ Ð¾Ð»Ð¸Ð¼Ð¿Ð¸Ð¹Ñкое золоÑо ÐабÑиÑлÑ.

matchtv.ru

 

[Peepsquick]

Match TV interview with Gabi's mother (in Russian, hope google translation is accurate, if not - feel free to ask )

«ÐоÑÑоÑÐ½Ð°Ñ â единÑÑÐ²ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ ÑоÑÑийÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ð¾Ð´Ð¸Ð½Ð¾ÑниÑа, коÑоÑÐ°Ñ Ð·Ð°Ð¿Ð°Ð»Ð° в дÑÑÑ». ÐÑÐ¸Ð·Ð½Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð¼Ð°Ð¼Ñ ÑÑанÑÑзÑкой Ñемпионки

ÐоÑÐµÐ¼Ñ ÐÐ°Ð¿Ð°Ð´Ð°ÐºÐ¸Ñ Ð¸ СизеÑон пÑопÑÑÑили пÑоÑлÑй Ñезон и как дома ждÑÑ Ð¾Ð»Ð¸Ð¼Ð¿Ð¸Ð¹Ñкое золоÑо ÐабÑиÑлÑ.

matchtv.ru

Thank you @Ka3sha ! It is very interesting to see Gabi through her mother's eyes and to hear how she nurtured her great talent.
She seems to have a strong personality and to be a no nonsense but affectionate mother...

 

[bcash]

I bolded all the areas where I agree with you ... I am in total agreement about the "manufactured Angst ", "self-face-touching" and this is symptomatic for what I have been grappling with since the beginning: this FD doesn't grab me like the others and I think it is because it looks more about representation of emotions than about emotions themselves. Not only is it very conceptual but the music, though exquisite, doesn't "carry" them or us the same way. With the exception of the character steps, the music doesn't allow for contrasted segments and its subtlety makes it very challenging to create "moments" for the casual viewer (by that I mean people watching the Olympics, for example). I am also puzzled as to why they did not work on introducing new, original elements in the spins ou the lift ... I am hoping they will. It has the feel of a piece under construction with placeholders.
This said, the FD has a magic of its own and I'm pretty sure it will cast its spell by the time the OG comes along. I just wonder if they spent more time on the RD? It is pretty perfect already and must have required a lot of training ... they make it look way easier than it is!

This is a superior way of verbalizing my impression of this FD. Looking back at their previous programs, esp. the ones pre-2019, I feel that the emotional impact ultimately came from the way their skating and the music came together. There was nothing "performative" or "presentational" about those programs.

I think that in terms of the overall shape, this FD is still one of the most legible this season. But I've begun to feel that the decision to carry some of the Tango FD ideas and elements into this one has prevented it from becoming a masterpiece.

 

[Andora]

I think that in terms of the overall shape, this FD is still one of the most legible this season. But I've begun to feel that the decision to carry some of the Tango FD ideas and elements into this one has prevented it from becoming a masterpiece.

This - their FD is still miles above other top teams, but that's more lucky than anything else. But I remain impressed with their strength and athleticism shown, so I'll take the good with the meh.

I'm going to go watch "find me" again for enjoyment.

 

[Bigbird]

This - their FD is still miles above other top teams, but that's more lucky than anything else. But I remain impressed with their strength and athleticism shown, so I'll take the good with the meh.

I'm going to go watch "find me" again for enjoyment.

These are the problems you have when you're that good and have the body of work that backs that up.

 

[sap5]

“For a long time queue in ice dance and unspoken nuances have been preventing Gabriella and Guillaume from getting fair scores.” Interview with Catherine Papadakis

Interview for Russian media with Catherine Papadakis, mother of Gabriella Papadakis and a skating coach. About her daughter career, skaters she works with and also Russian skaters.

fs-gossips.com

 

[deegee]

that straight line lift from le parc worked for that program's softness and romance, of which this fauré program is neither. i think this is why it never felt right to me in shape of you. i always felt that lift was the weakest part of that otherwise very good rd. simply changing the arm movements to fit with the beat of the music didn't cut it.

they've had such excellent straight line lifts in their career, it's a wonder they haven't figured this one out (though i'm in the minority on this forum who doesn't hate the candle lift):

flamenco rd

build a home fd

stillness fd (maybe this would be a nice one to rework for the current fd since it was only used once, and five years ago now)

moonlight sonata fd

find me fd

 

[GreenGan]

Build a home lifts were so gorgeous. My favourite lift of them is definitely the first stationnary lift in that program. Amazing. Close seconds are the straight line frome this same program and find me.

 

[Orm Irian]

Episode 6 of On Edge is out! This time there's some nice content about the return to (real - Masters de Patinage doesn't get a look-in) competition for Gabi and Guillaume. Also lots of funny shots of Romain reacting very intensely during the different teams' programs...

Oh, and by the way, can I just say how very much I appreciate Catherine Papadakis in general and this reply in her interview linked above in particular?

How do people in Europe and America treat the problem of excess weight among skaters?

Catherine Papadakis: Honestly, no one discusses this topic – how many times I went to seminars and talked with different coaches. In our club in Clermont-Ferrand, there are no cases of weight loss. In other schools, too, I think they know how to find a balance. In Europe, it is simply not customary to talk about weight. During the time that Gabriella trains in Canada, she also has never complained to me about such problems. She eats well and is rarely weighed.

The way she took a question that was (or appears to be - there might be a translation issue, I don't know) about the 'problem' of skaters having 'excess' weight and turned it around to give a reply about avoiding the culture of excessive weight loss in figure skating instead was both very smooth and very positive.

 

[canbelto]

Aww I liked the candlestick lift. Hope they put it back.

 

[Andora]

that straight line lift from le parc worked for that program's softness and romance, of which this fauré program is neither. i think this is why it never felt right to me in shape of you. i always felt that lift was the weakest part of that otherwise very good rd. simply changing the arm movements to fit with the beat of the music didn't cut it.

they've had such excellent straight line lifts in their career, it's a wonder they haven't figured this one out (though i'm in the minority on this forum who doesn't hate the candle lift):

flamenco rd

build a home fd

stillness fd (maybe this would be a nice one to rework for the current fd since it was only used once, and five years ago now)

moonlight sonata fd

find me fd

Thank you for the trip down memory lane - particularly their Flamenco RD! That was SUCH a spectacular program. I loved it about as much as I loved Mozart that year.

 

[bcash]

This - their FD is still miles above other top teams, but that's more lucky than anything else. But I remain impressed with their strength and athleticism shown, so I'll take the good with the meh.

I'm going to go watch "find me" again for enjoyment.

I went back and watched Duet/Sunday Afternoon for the first time in maybe two years. I thought it was a"minor" work back then, but this time around I found the program (and their performance) enchanting, exuding a relaxed sense of freedom and a tender joy.

 

[VGThuy]

The truth is, their program is the only FD we can really critique, analyze this closely or care to do so. That says a lot as every other FD doesn’t give us that much to go as far as we do with their Faure.

 

[VGThuy]

I went back and watched Duet/Sunday Afternoon for the first time in maybe two years. I thought it was a"minor" work back then, but this time around I found the program (and their performance) enchanting, emanating a relaxed sense of freedom and a tender joy.

Sorry for the double post but it’s hard to copy and paste and edit on mobile. Anyway, that’s actually my favorite FD of theirs. I fell in love with it at the France GP and it’s probably my dream romantic FD. So many teams try to replicate that and I think that’s what H/D are trying to do with their FD but P/C are just on a different level. Honestly, I can watch them skate to just “Duet” all day. I loved their entire demeanor, their package, and their look throughout that dance. It was simple but free and light. It’s one where I see them just dance.

 

[bcash]

that straight line lift from le parc worked for that program's softness and romance, of which this fauré program is neither. i think this is why it never felt right to me in shape of you. i always felt that lift was the weakest part of that otherwise very good rd. simply changing the arm movements to fit with the beat of the music didn't cut it.

they've had such excellent straight line lifts in their career, it's a wonder they haven't figured this one out (though i'm in the minority on this forum who doesn't hate the candle lift):

flamenco rd

build a home fd

stillness fd (maybe this would be a nice one to rework for the current fd since it was only used once, and five years ago now)

moonlight sonata fd

find me fd

After watching the Find Me lift from a fan camera angle, I realized that perhaps this most recent change to the straight line lift was out of a consideration that the lift should look good both on the judges' side and the opposite side. Because the Find Me lift did not look particularly pretty from the side opposite the judges. The candle stick lift looks better from the judges side as well, but the most recent one indeed would look nice (the final position) from both sides.

 

[sap5]

that straight line lift from le parc worked for that program's softness and romance, of which this fauré program is neither. i think this is why it never felt right to me in shape of you. i always felt that lift was the weakest part of that otherwise very good rd. simply changing the arm movements to fit with the beat of the music didn't cut it.

they've had such excellent straight line lifts in their career, it's a wonder they haven't figured this one out (though i'm in the minority on this forum who doesn't hate the candle lift):

flamenco rd

build a home fd

stillness fd (maybe this would be a nice one to rework for the current fd since it was only used once, and five years ago now)

moonlight sonata fd

find me fd

I don’t like Gabriella’s positions in any of these lifts. Would love a lift with nice clean extensions and minimal balance points.