Orser explains why Briand coached Hanyu at GP Final in Torino (Hersh article); also a Ghislain Briand article (in French)

[tafattsbarn]

Don’t forget that Brian and Tracy now spend a few weeks each year with the Chinese skaters now as well.

Tursy was not progressing and she’s been trying to get back to Eteri for a couple of years, and as mentioned above Gogolev wasn’t a primary student of Brian’s.

It’s possible that Yuzuru’s only reason for staying in is to land the full complement of quads including the axel. He’s not paying attention to his PCS -Brian warned him months ago that Chen had caught up to him there, but in the GPFinal Yuzuru had regressed in posture and performing.

Oh, come off it. He is not regressing in posture and performing. He was lacking stamina as he was doing a five quad layout which he had only done a runthrough of one time. He looked visibly winded, just as he did his first two senior seasons as he upped his technical content significantly. As soon as he gets his stamina up again he will stop looking as done as he did here.

 

[skatfan]

Oh, come off it. He is not regressing in posture and performing. He was lacking stamina as he was doing a five quad layout which he had only done a runthrough of one time. He looked visibly winded, just as he did his first two senior seasons as he upped his technical content significantly. As soon as he gets his stamina up again he will stop looking as done as he did here.

His lack of stamina affect his PCS imo - much more of the dangly arms and looking down at the ice. The focus on the jumps, in this performance, took away from other areas.

Chen also did 5 quads and was in much better form for his program all the way to the end, but even Chen said he needed to work on his stamina.

The point is that Yuzuru used to count on a PCS advantage which is no longer there when he makes mistakes, something Brian has noticed from last year’s World’s, where Chen was within a point of Yuzuru in both the short and the free skates.

 

[RoseRed]

I feel like Brian has been completely preoccupied with Medvedeva since she arrived. He just seems so personally invested somehow. Isn’t that why he almost didn’t take on Jason Brown? And maybe partly why Tursy and that very talented Canadian young man (Gogolev?) left? I guess coaches have to be inspired too, and right now he seems most inspired by Med for some reason. I mean, I love Med, so I’m glad for the attention she’s getting. She also desperately needs it to compete with her countrywomen.
But I’m a little bummed that Jason isn’t getting more attention, because he really needs that quad. But he’s not the only one who has to compete for Brian’s attention. At least he knew before he joined.

Tursynbaeva was leaving before Medvedeva came, as far as I know. I think it was mutual/TCC's suggestion since she wasn't progressing.

Brian didn't think they had space for Jason initially because he'd already committed to taking on Boyang Jin in addition to Evgenia. But as we know, Boyang decided to stay in China, so that doesn't matter now.

Stephen switching to just Lee as his primary coach was connected to Brian being busy with Evgenia, from what was said at the time (rumours plus some of Brian's comments), but Hanyu would undoubtably be a higher priority than Stephen in his first junior season, so I see no reason to think that's relevant here.

Anyways, since none of us are actually there, I don't think we really know how much time each of them are getting.

 

[VGThuy]

Don’t forget that Brian and Tracy now spend a few weeks each year with the Chinese skaters now as well.

Tursy was not progressing and she’s been trying to get back to Eteri for a couple of years, and as mentioned above Gogolev wasn’t a primary student of Brian’s.

It’s possible that Yuzuru’s only reason for staying in is to land the full complement of quads including the axel. He’s not paying attention to his PCS -Brian warned him months ago that Chen had caught up to him there, but in the GPFinal Yuzuru had regressed in posture and performing.

Yeah, he's not even bothering making new programs every year now.

 

[tafattsbarn]

His lack of stamina affect his PCS imo - much more of the dangly arms and looking down at the ice. The focus on the jumps, in this performance, took away from other areas.

Chen also did 5 quads and was in much better form for his program all the way to the end, but even Chen said he needed to work on his stamina.

The point is that Yuzuru used to count on a PCS advantage which is no longer there when he makes mistakes, something Brian has noticed from last year’s World’s, where Chen was within a point of Yuzuru in both the short and the free skates.

I mistook the meaning of the word regress a bit (english is not my first language) as i did not think of it as a temporary state only a permanent one, but after looking the word up i still do not think it's regression as his stamina didn't become worse, it's just not developed enough for the program at this time. Semantics aside, i do not think Yuzu has dangly arms or bad posture, maybe he did when he just turned senior, but he has some of the most developed upper body control in the field nowadays and i don't think it suffered during his GPF performances. I do agree that the performance wasn't as good as it usually is though as he wasn't immersed in it and did look down a lot. So a 93 in PCS is an accurate measurement.

Brian is right when he says the PCS advantage is not there anymore, but i very much disagree that it should be the case. I still do not think Nathan should get more than high 8s to low 9s on his best days. Maybe you could say he matches Yuzuru in PR and IN, but in CO, TR and SS? That's absurd imo. Regardless, the inflation has led us here (and judges seem to not agree that you can give different scores for different categories) so Yuzu will have to adapt, as i'm sure he will.

(I appologize if i'm not communicating my point in an easy to understand way, it's way past midnight here and i'm dead tired. I'll try to clarify later if you want).

Yeah, he's not even bothering making new programs every year now.

Yuzuru has recycled many times in his career, junior as well as senior, so it has nothing to do with the fact that he is at the latter parts of it.

 

[MsZem]

^But Fernandez didn't have that strong of technique, and TCC rehauled him and almost built him up from scratch.

Fernandez's issues had more to do with basic skating and packaging. Recall that his final programs before going to Orser et al. were this and the second year of drunken pirate.

 

[thvu]

(There’s a term (mor*n) for someone who lacks curiosity or enquired mind, can’t see beyond one foot, solve a two-piece puzzle and connect three big dots)

So, those posters who are knowledgeable of ISU rules and procedures proceed to explain accreditation to you, how it works and it limitations, and you proceed to call everyone morons? Not only that, but you hide it in small italicized font? Like you're trying to insult people in a cowardly way?

I called you irrational and ridiculous. The former was obvious, and now the latter definitely is.

 

[antmanb]

Aww I liked drunken pirate

But the issue with anything where you're pretending to fake bad skating/drunk skating etc is that you have to be impeccable for it to work - an elite at the top not an up and comer. Like Brendan Kerry's programme this season you're left asking whether it's intentional or not

 

[kwanfan1818]

But the issue with anything where you're pretending to fake bad skating/drunk skating etc is that you have to be impeccable for it to work - an elite at the top not an up and comer.

Or as one of my director classmates in college once said, "You don't cast a bumbling fool to play a bumbling fool: you cast an ac-ro-bat!"

 

[skateboy]

I still do not think Nathan should get more than high 8s to low 9s on his best days. Maybe you could say he matches Yuzuru in PR and IN, but in CO, TR and SS? That's absurd imo.

Yuzuru still has the edge on Skating Skills, in my opinion. Transitions too, I suppose, although he didn't have all that much this time around. But Choreography? Nathan all the way.

 

[Tahuu]

So, those posters who are knowledgeable of ISU rules and procedures proceed to explain accreditation to you, how it works and it limitations, and you proceed to call everyone morons? Not only that, but you hide it in small italicized font? Like you're trying to insult people in a cowardly way?

I called you irrational and ridiculous. The former was obvious, and now the latter definitely is.

Did you read my original post (#10 above), despite your quoting it?

If you read, you could see I knew the existence of the one coach per skater rule and I knew that multiple coaches may be in the K/C when they have multiple skaters at the competition. But there seemed to be exceptions. Neither of Jin’s two coaches was a team leader. In Samarin’s case, Butikov apparently was not a team leader either. Otherwise why wouldn’t he be with poor Alieve after that disastrous FS?

People were interested in the absence of Orser at this Final without explanation or a half assed he’s too busy explanation. Now we know Orser was NOT asked or told until days after the fact that he was not going to the GPF with Hanyu. That’s why we are curious about if there was/is “Trouble in paradise.”

If you don’t see that my reply to karmena’s “dirty eye” footnote as a response in shape and form, I guess you is one who can’t see beyond one foot, solve a two-piece puzzle and connect three big dots, aka, moron (sorry in case you don’t understand, this is a response in shape and form to your repeated “ridiculous” claims).

 

[Tinami Amori]

That’s why we are curious about if there was/is “Trouble in paradise.”

Skating fans are curious to know what happened and the training prospects/plans of Hanyu. But the description "trouble in paradise" sounds like gloating and/or looking for a juicy gossip at the expense of a skater. Hanyu does not deserve this..

 

[chantilly]

Yuzuru still has the edge on Skating Skills, in my opinion. Transitions too, I suppose, although he didn't have all that much this time around. But Choreography? Nathan all the way.

Also Nathan has improved in transitions and skating skills.

 

[MacMadame]

I would say in the GPF performance, that Nathan had the advantage in pretty much every aspect of PCS maybe even SS just because Hanyu was so off. If Hanyu has skated like he is capable of, that would have been different.

 

[VGThuy]

I would say in the GPF performance, that Nathan had the advantage in pretty much every aspect of PCS maybe even SS just because Hanyu was so off. If Hanyu has skated like he is capable of, that would have been different.

Agreed. I think people are still living in the past and refusing to acknowledge the PCS gap being narrower between the two.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Nathan’s FS has absolutely no choreography and no interpretation other then the choreographic sequence, of which has nothing to do with the theme of the program. And that’s a requiremed element so basically you can say there is absolutely no choreography and interpretation in the program at all. It’s a mess IMO. I thought he was highly trained in ballet?

 

[VGThuy]

Nathan’s FS has absolutely no choreography and no interpretation other then the choreographic sequence, of which has nothing to do with the theme of the program. And that’s a requiremed element so basically you can say there is absolutely no choreography and interpretation in the program at all. It’s a mess IMO. I thought he was highly trained in ballet?

Same goes to Yuzuru this season with that long program. He made me miss Plushenko’s posing on two feet with the same music because at least he interpreted something. He may have mostly looked at the judges but at least he wasn’t looking down at the ice most of the time and controlled his arms.

 

[tafattsbarn]

Yuzuru still has the edge on Skating Skills, in my opinion. Transitions too, I suppose, although he didn't have all that much this time around. But Choreography? Nathan all the way.

We'll have to disagree. Also, the third component is composition, not choreography.

 

[tony]

We'll have to disagree. Also, the third component is composition, not choreography.

Since we are getting technical, it’s actually the fourth component.

I have to agree with much of what has been said in the last few posts. I admire both Hanyu and Chen but I can also see the faults. I thought Chen’s free skate last season, especially as it went on, was getting more and more ridiculous with how empty it was. I don’t find that to be the case this year. There is plenty happening, there are more transitions, and he’s not stalking all of the jump elements. Unfortunately for Hanyu, I never really warmed up to this free skate and I totally agree that his looking down, pushing harder to gain more speed, and flailing his arms gets super distracting. And when he makes a mistake (typically a pop), he ALWAYS just looks down at his skate for a few seconds and completely breaks any energy he may have gathered in building the performance.

For me, I’d rather see someone invested in the program from beginning until end versus someone who is in and out of the zone throughout each performance. I’m not saying Hanyu can’t get that magic back, but I think he’s too in his head right now trying not to make any mistakes.

 

[Tinami Amori]

For me, I’d rather see someone invested in the program from beginning until end versus someone who is in and out of the zone throughout each performance.

it's simple now, whichever one of the two would do the most and cleanest quads and 3A's, would win. These two guys have different styles, each one has many pluses, and it will be "let the clean-landing best man win".

 

[DreamSkates]

As for the coachng thing at GPF, was the coach that accompanied Hanyu one that focuses on jumping? Did I read somewhere that Hanyu practiced a quad axle at the GPF, although didn't put it in his program? So maybe that is the reason he didn't bring Orser as usual.

 

[Vase]

I would agree taking a skater to the GPF would be a coaches priority, but also agree that Med. takes a lot of Orser’s time.
So IMO I’d say something was going on. Time will tell if they can move forward together.
Gogolev did have Orser as a secondary coach, but after JGP Richmond it was decided they’d leave Orser. They thought he didn’t have enough time for Gogolev. Now he’s mostly with Raf but when in Toronto he skates with lee.

 

[rfisher]

I would agree taking a skater to the GPF would be a coaches priority, but also agree that Med. takes a lot of Orser’s time.
So IMO I’d say something was going on. Time will tell if they can move forward together.
Gogolev did have Orser as a secondary coach, but after JGP Richmond it was decided they’d leave Orser. They thought he didn’t have enough time for Gogolev. Now he’s mostly with Raf but when in Toronto he skates with lee.

Med wasn't taking any of his time during the GPF

 

[tafattsbarn]

Since we are getting technical, it’s actually the fourth component.

I have to agree with much of what has been said in the last few posts. I admire both Hanyu and Chen but I can also see the faults. I thought Chen’s free skate last season, especially as it went on, was getting more and more ridiculous with how empty it was. I don’t find that to be the case this year. There is plenty happening, there are more transitions, and he’s not stalking all of the jump elements. Unfortunately for Hanyu, I never really warmed up to this free skate and I totally agree that his looking down, pushing harder to gain more speed, and flailing his arms gets super distracting. And when he makes a mistake (typically a pop), he ALWAYS just looks down at his skate for a few seconds and completely breaks any energy he may have gathered in building the performance.

For me, I’d rather see someone invested in the program from beginning until end versus someone who is in and out of the zone throughout each performance. I’m not saying Hanyu can’t get that magic back, but I think he’s too in his head right now trying not to make any mistakes.

I meant the third component mentioned in the quoted post, not amongst PCS overall.

 

[FunnyBut]

Stop to tell Yet Another Lie...B!

I would guess all is not well with Hanyu and Orser. The one thing that is not said is something like ‘We (Orser/Hanyu) decided together who should support me at GPF’. Instead, Brian appears to be covering up for being blindsided, and saying we can work any issues out. That’s not what you say when you see eye-to-eye. And Hanyu is understandably trying to mitigate any issues and avoid public scrutiny into issues that should be worked privately . And surely Japanese Fed is not blindly sending Ghislain without feedback from the revered star.

The only one to ‘blame’ for Hanyu’s loss is Nathan Chen. He is the one that performed the highest scoring program ever. Hanyu should be commended for upping the ante, landing 5 quads and bringing back the 4lutz, that must have required an incredible amount of determination. Progress comes with mistakes, the performance still would have beaten any other skaters’ best.

 

[karmena]

Stop to tell Yet Another Lie...B!

I did not know you are appointed to be a Judge !? Congratulations.

 

[Orm Irian]

The only one to ‘blame’ for Hanyu’s loss is Nathan Chen. He is the one that performed the highest scoring program ever. Hanyu should be commended for upping the ante, landing 5 quads and bringing back the 4lutz, that must have required an incredible amount of determination. Progress comes with mistakes, the performance still would have beaten any other skaters’ best.

The only one to blame for Hanyu's loss is Hanyu. He's the one who missed his combo in the SP, arsed around doing 4A attempts and exhausting himself in practice, and then skated an unrehearsed five-quad program he didn't have the stamina for, neglecting his components in the process. Maybe he should have put his ego in his back pocket for the duration and remembered Javier Fernandez's often-successful strategy of doing a little less, much better.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Or maybe it was important to him to do what he did, and he's not the one worrying or complaining about a loss to Chen in December 2019. It's not even the season before the Olympic season.

 

[MacMadame]

I did not know you are appointed to be a Judge !? Congratulations.

It was a joke.

Also, this is a figure skating board where people express their opinions. That means we are all appointed as judges... Even you.

 

[misskarne]

The only one to ‘blame’ for Hanyu’s loss is Nathan Chen. He is the one that performed the highest scoring program ever.

The only one to 'blame' for Hanyu's loss is Yuzuru Hanyu. He is the one that made basic simple mistakes and did not score high enough to win.

Blaming Chen is just...gross.