Only an act of quad can stop Nathan Chen and the ridiculousness- Toronto Star Article

[lala]

Elvis was before the IJS but he was one of the first skaters to become known for consistently doing quads. So I have no idea why you think Canada is waiting for a skater with a lot of quads, or why you think that the Canadian media doesn't know about quads in skating. In any case, Rosie DiManno certainly isn't representative of all Canadian sports journalists.

I know everything but I don't believe you don't understand my sarcasm...

 

[Tavi]

I am not. I understand what people say they don't like about the program with too many quads. My argument is that it is not unique to quads; that happened and happens still with skaters whose arsenal is limited to triples.

Well, that wasn’t really clear from your last post - all you stated was that some skaters telegraph triples, which to me simply means a long set up for a given jump, say a 3A.

In any case, I disagree. I think there’s a difference between bad choreo and technical demands. It’s pretty well acknowledged that in general, for most skaters, quads (especially 4F and 4Z) simply require more speed - and more set up time - than triples. All you have to do is look at Nathan’s and Vincent’s free skates to see what I’m talking about. We’ve seen lots of other programs by Lori Nichol (Nathan) and Jeff Buttle (Vincent) and they’re generally not devoid of choreography for the first two minutes if they only include triples.

 

[Janbo]

I love our sport. But not to the point that it cripples it’s participants. I think we should have a limit on how many quads are allowed in the program. But we also need to grade jumps more fiercely - poor foot work in and out should be severely marked down &! excellent in and out higher mark. Not just the one two theee points but 4 or 5 points. Falls are deducted by
length of time to get back into program. Jump stalking should receive mega negative deductions in the second mark. The second mark right now is too tied to the first mark. Alternatively, we can have two events: skate jumping and skating skills. Both have jumps but one’s all about the jumps and one has all the skills with less emphasis on quads and 3.axels.

 

[jlai]

It is easy to say how to fix it but the problem is to get everything right for every element on top of the five pcs marks, for 25-40 skaters in a row. We skip the skaters we don't like but judges can't. Judges are human and given the amount of things they need to grade, it is hard to get every thing right. I think they trIed separating pcs and tes judging but it hasn't been adopted

 

[olympic]

Rosie Dimanno wrote me back today:

Nope. I have no dog in this fight

That was it. I responded for the final time:

OK. That's fine.

You don't address or take responsibility for the rest of the trash you write about Nathan Chen.

It speaks a lot about your character.

Bye.

She sounds like a real charmer!

 

[screech]

I am not. I understand what people say they don't like about the program with too many quads. My argument is that it is not unique to quads; that happened and happens still with skaters whose arsenal is limited to triples.

And that shows that a skater doesn't have the skill to incorporate choreography and jumps, which should be marked down. Yes, it does still happen with triples for some (normally those who can't do the harder jumps) but it should not. A skater shouldn't HAVE to interrupt a program to do a jump, and many just want to see that reflected in the PCS - a skater who can weave jumps into the choreography should be marked higher than those who can't do that skill, no matter what jump it is.

 

[DreamSkates]

These two sports are very different, so your example is not a valid one. Skiing is a one dimensional sport where speed is the main factor. Skating has multiple dimensions, including some subjectivity. Skating is not a jumping contest, so all factors need to be taken into account.

True, and jumping being a significant factor, just as in other sports there is a significant factor.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I was wondering how long it would take for the cry baby canadians to start some “wewuzrobbed” whining. Canadians complaining about skating has become an oly tradition!

As if one journalist becomes a country's point of view... And as if Americans never whine, the Russians never whine, the French never whine and so on...

 

[judgejudy27]

I think one thing that speaks volume to Rosies knowledge on skating is in a preview for Worlds one time she said Bourne & Kraatz would have a hard time winning with all the big tricks the Chinese pairs are doing. In a preview for Canadians one time she said it should be a great battle between Sale & Pelletier and Bourne & Kraatz in the Team Event. Her knowledge of the sport is probably about on par with someone like Rob Faulds, antmanb or Dan Matheson at best, LOL!

That being said I do think she has some semi valid points, not directly rated to Chen, but that in general the quad mania has perhaps gone overboard. If you look at the difference in silver between Uno and Fernandez it is mostly that Uno got way more points for an ugly fall on a borderline underrotated quad loop than Fernandez did popping a planned quad to a still nice looking double jump after already doing 2 clean quads himself. That kind of thing is not really something I agree with. And perhaps the ISU does need to look at some revisions after this quad.

 

[olympic]

I think one thing that speaks volume to Rosies knowledge on skating is in a preview for Worlds one time she said Bourne & Kraatz would have a hard time winning with all the big tricks the Chinese pairs are doing. In a preview for Canadians one time she said it should be a great battle between Sale & Pelletier and Bourne & Kraatz in the Team Event. Her knowledge of the sport is probably about on par with someone like Rob Faulds, antmanb or Dan Matheson at best, LOL!

That being said I do think she has some semi valid points, not directly rated to Chen, but that in general the quad mania has perhaps gone overboard. If you look at the difference in silver between Uno and Fernandez it is mostly that Uno got way more points for an ugly fall on a borderline underrotated quad loop than Fernandez did popping a planned quad to a still nice looking double jump after already doing 2 clean quads himself. That kind of thing is not really something I agree with. And perhaps the ISU does need to look at some revisions after this quad.

@judgejudy27 IIRC, you were one of the biggest detractors to Evan Lysacek winning an OGM with no quad not too long ago. Now, it’s too many quads? I’m not picking a fight but I’d like to know what you see as an ideal program

 

[judgejudy27]

@olympics, no I was far from one of Evans biggest critics or critics of his win. I dont recall taking a strong stance one way or the other. The most I might have said is Evans OGM performance isnt one of the best ones as it was won without a quad over a decade after they were regularly being landed by the top guys, but that would certainly apply to Plushenko or Takahashi (with his fall and other mistakes) had they won as well. I probably agreed with that result, or atleast could understand it as I dont think Plushenko deserved it that night really.

IMO an ideal skating program would be Hanyu and his best LPs in fall 2015 or his 2017 worlds LP. Anywhere from 2-4 quads is ideal as far as the perfect marriage of athletic greatness and artistry, for the right skater. Of course matching what Hanyu did those nights is very hard for anyone, including Hanyu himself as rarely has since.

I dont discourage the pushing of quads or difficulty. I just think like an example I said where Uno got so many more points for a horrible attempt and ugly fall on a quad loop that really probably should have been called underrotated (but wasnt) than Fernandez did for a beautiful high doubled quad which of course is still not good, but as both guys did numerous clean quads it is the better of the two IMO. And of course that was the difference in Uno getting silver over Fernandez even with much lower PCS, a bunch of shaky landings, and when both had mistakes. That is just one of many possible examples where the quad mania and the scoring system towards it is flawed, but I am not sure if there is anyway to make it perfect or ideal under IJS either. I dont have an easy answer, but it something to consider just in general.

 

[morgan rye]

https://www.thestar.com/sports/olym...-stop-nathan-chen-and-the-ridiculousness.html

thanks so much for having a link to this. there is a point here however i think what has been overlooked is that nathan was in 17th place / his only option was to do what he did to see if that would help him get where he wanted to be. i have certainly seen him skate that program better and with more panache so he isn't a one trick wonder but that night he certainly was.......... but............. there was a method to his madness as he admitted. he had nothing to lose so he loaded it up. can't say i blame him. artistry was not going to get him anywhere.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

There is one jumper every generation that rocks the boat - Elaine Zayak in the 1980s (too many triples and the formulation of the Elaine Zayak rule) and nearly 40 years later, we have Nathan Chen (too many quads).

I've only seen Elaine in YouTube videos because I wasn't around then. I saw that she moved from 7th to 1st at the 1982 Worlds by doing a bunch of triple loops in the long program. She seemed to have a very bouncy and perky personality at the time.

Midori Ito was in 4th after the short program at the 1992 Olympics but successfully did a triple axel after falling on her first one to get on the podium with a silver medal.

Nathan moved from 17th to 5th at the 2018 Olympics by doing 6 quads.

We have 3 examples of how big jumps help skaters move up in the standings in our "sport" of figure skating. Difficult jumps make figure skating a sport. That is how we defend the sport against journalists who say that figure skating is not a real sport. Ask them to put on a pair of skates and do a quad lutz. Not so easy.

 

[judgejudy27]

I agree on the revolutionaries, and one thing they all have in common is they all seem to attract controversy. Zayak probably attracted more than anyone in history, but today she is one of the most beloved ex champions among skating fans. Ito maybe not as much, it seems she was universally loved, but even her there was probably some. I could be wrong but I remember hearing that the ISU's change from the technical mark being the tiebreaker to the artistic becoming was largely due to Ito, and being terrified she would be unbeatable for another 10 years, particularly with figures almost certain to be gone in a couple years at that point. Stojko of course was a controversial figure in the sport while he was the first to consistently land quads and push different quad combinations, and make the quad all but mandatory for a top contender. Tara Lipinski to some extent, remember some of the incredibly nasty article written on her immediately after her 97 worlds win, and of course she was revolutionary in a sense, being the first to do many of the hardest triple-triples ever seen, most finishing with a loop. And now Nathan today.

 

[Meoima]

thanks so much for having a link to this. there is a point here however i think what has been overlooked is that nathan was in 17th place / his only option was to do what he did to see if that would help him get where he wanted to be. i have certainly seen him skate that program better and with more panache so he isn't a one trick wonder but that night he certainly was.......... but............. there was a method to his madness as he admitted. he had nothing to lose so he loaded it up. can't say i blame him. artistry was not going to get him anywhere.

Good skating skills, presentation can get you somewhere, look at Carolina. But it takes TIME.

 

[seabm7]

Like men needed multiple quads to make an impression now, perhaps ladies other than those from Russia entering the junior and senior ranks, will need to consider this tactic as well.

Actually, Yelim Kim tried the tactic for this season's Junior Grand Prix, but she ended up having a lower PCS score. She went to back to a balanced choreography program.

 

[mumboman]

In general the only thing the athlete controls in figure skating is their technical base mark so thus more quads will be tried in the future. The skater has no control over their goe and pcs, in many cases you can call the marks random. If the ISU lowers the base value for quads and triples as many are speculating, I think we see harder programs to cover the goe and pcs, as the tech base goes higher to cover any losses on goe and pcs for newer skaters or those without the reputation as of yet. When we went to the numbers game after Salt Lake we got skaters and coaches that will use the numbers they can control to their advantage. Thus we have great displays of technical difficulty at this olympics in Zagitova and Chen. I assume it goes faster higher stronger over the next 4 years. No rule can stop this unless the numbers game is changed.