Natalia Mishkutenok & Artur Dmitriev

[Vash01]

Yes, if only. Given that Canada is the only country in the world in which judging misconduct ever occurs and/or the only country in the world in which judging misconduct will ever be exposed.

Russia just can't politic effectively on behalf of its pairs (even after half a century of experience).

Really? I have seen some pretty weird results at competitions in Canada. Couple of examples are S&P's worlds win at 2001 worlds, with a major mistake in the SP (hey were clearly held up) and a smaller mistake in the LP. Another one was at a pro (or something similar) competition when the Wirtzes got higher marks than Kazakova-Dmitriev, who were either worlds bronze medallists or Olympic champions at that time (and they skated pretty well). Artur just shrugged when he saw those marks.

The most obvious Canadian bias was in the 2002 Olympics SP when the Canadian judge placed S&P above B&S who had skated perhaps the best SP ever in a pairs competition, and S&P couldn't hold their end position and had a fall (no penalty under 6.0 though). The German judge was another one on the Canadians' side, but nobody questioned why they placed S&P higher. I would call this (and the one above) judging misconduct, although the Canadians may be smarter at keeping their secret.

 

[Xela M]

Canadian skaters are not only the least pleasant losers but they have been overscored for years. I struggle to think of a time when a Canadian skater was ever underscored. Yet, they always make the most noise about poor judging...

S&P, B&K, Chan, B&E (although Lloyd was pretty funny), now D&R with their ridiculous PCS etc etc etc.

 

[Amantide]

M&D are my all time fav team as well. I loved them, still do.
I was rooting for K&D at Nagano too, mainly because of him. They had the same moves of M&D but they were a very good pair together and deserved the title.

 

[kwanoverrated]

Canadian skaters are not only the least pleasant losers but they have been overscored for years. I struggle to think of a time when a Canadian skater was ever underscored. Yet, they always make the most noise about poor judging...

S&P, B&K, Chan, B&E (although Lloyd was pretty funny), now D&R with their ridiculous PCS etc etc etc.

Yes as a whole Canada is proably the most overscored country in figure skating. I cant think of any skaters/team more overscored than Chan or Sale & Pelletier ever. Those others you mentioned were all overscored too, but so were Stojko, Browning (at times), Bourne & Kraatz. Yet as you say Canadians are the ones who whine about judging and complain about politics the most. As if Canadians never politic and dont send some of the most biased judges out there to events. Think of this:

1. At the 92 worlds Kurt Browning did a double lutz in the short program, a mandatory .5 deduction that year. 5.9 for required elements from Canada.
2. At the 92 Olympics the Canadian judge placed Browning 2nd in the LP, above winner Vikor Petrenko. He ended up 6th in the LP and overall with remaining ordinals from 4th to 9th.
3. At the 97 worlds the Canadian judge placed Bourne & Kraatz 1st in everyone of the 4 dances in a competition with Gritschuk & Platov, Kyrlova & Ovsiannikov, Anissina & Peizerat, and others. Even the 2nd CD and OD where they didnt have another ordinal higher than 3rd, and some 4ths and 5ths, he put them 1st. He was their only 1st place ordinal in any dance.
4. At the 2001 worlds Benoit Lavoie tied Sale & Pelletier and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze where Jamie practically fell (stumbled out of, hands down) on her triple toe in the short. She only had B&S ahead on a tiebreak as he gave them 5.6, 5.9 and B&S 5.7, 5.8. Then in the LP where B&S were clean and S&P singled a jump he had S&P above by more than any other judge, a whole .3. He was 1 of 2 who had S&P higher in the SLC SP too. He had S&P above B&S by the biggest margin of any judge again in the SLC LP (.3 again) and threw a tantrum in the booth when B&S were posted ahead in the results. Should have been banned from judging immediately for his disgusting S&P bias.
5. At the 76 Olympics the Canadian judge was the only one who had Cranston winning the overall event ahead of John Curry (the Soviet judge showed similar bias doing likewise for Kovalev) despite a subpar competition for him with disaesterous figures and a flawed LP, and Curry being sublime.
6. At the 88 worlds Manley had a required .4 deduction minimum for a short program error but gained a 5.7 for elements from the Canadian judge out of her apparent base mark of 6.1 or 6.2.
7. At the 2001 Grand Prix final the Canadian judge gave S&P 5.9, 6.0 before B&S even skated their LP.

 

[Latte]

I didn't care for Artur's second partner. They never skated that well until some miracle happened at the O's and they pulled it off. But she just wasn't up to the talent of his first partner.

 

[Spun Silver]

Yes as a whole Canada is proably the most overscored country in figure skating. I cant think of any skaters/team more overscored than Chan or Sale & Pelletier ever. Those others you mentioned were all overscored too, but so were Stojko, Browning (at times), Bourne & Kraatz. Yet as you say Canadians are the ones who whine about judging and complain about politics the most. As if Canadians never politic and dont send some of the most biased judges out there to events. Think of this:

1. At the 92 worlds Kurt Browning did a double lutz in the short program, a mandatory .5 deduction that year. 5.9 for required elements from Canada.
2. At the 92 Olympics the Canadian judge placed Browning 2nd in the LP, above winner Vikor Petrenko. He ended up 6th in the LP and overall with remaining ordinals from 4th to 9th.
3. At the 97 worlds the Canadian judge placed Bourne & Kraatz 1st in everyone of the 4 dances in a competition with Gritschuk & Platov, Kyrlova & Ovsiannikov, Anissina & Peizerat, and others. Even the 2nd CD and OD where they didnt have another ordinal higher than 3rd, and some 4ths and 5ths, he put them 1st. He was their only 1st place ordinal in any dance.
4. At the 2001 worlds Benoit Lavoie tied Sale & Pelletier and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze where Jamie practically fell (stumbled out of, hands down) on her triple toe in the short. She only had B&S ahead on a tiebreak as he gave them 5.6, 5.9 and B&S 5.7, 5.8. Then in the LP where B&S were clean and S&P singled a jump he had S&P above by more than any other judge, a whole .3. He was 1 of 2 who had S&P higher in the SLC SP too. He had S&P above B&S by the biggest margin of any judge again in the SLC LP (.3 again) and threw a tantrum in the booth when B&S were posted ahead in the results. Should have been banned from judging immediately for his disgusting S&P bias.
5. At the 76 Olympics the Canadian judge was the only one who had Cranston winning the overall event ahead of John Curry (the Soviet judge showed similar bias doing likewise for Kovalev) despite a subpar competition for him with disaesterous figures and a flawed LP, and Curry being sublime.
6. At the 88 worlds Manley had a required .4 deduction minimum for a short program error but gained a 5.7 for elements from the Canadian judge out of her apparent base mark of 6.1 or 6.2.
7. At the 2001 Grand Prix final the Canadian judge gave S&P 5.9, 6.0 before B&S even skated their LP.

BRING BACK NON-ANONYMOUS JUDGING! It's so much fun!

 

[gk_891]

I wish any of Dmitriev's skaters would skate programmes as exciting as M&D did. I know COP killed a lot of the fun, but aside from K&S this season and V&T's SP last season, all other Russian pairs programmes have been pretty dire.

I wonder if Dmitriev ever manges to win OGM as a coach as well.

Who's he coaching these days? I recall one Russian pairs team (I think both partners had German names) he coached a while back but I've not heard anything about that team in a while.

 

[Xela M]

Who's he coaching these days? I recall one Russian pairs team (I think both partners had German names) he coached a while back but I've not heard anything about that team in a while.

I thought he was coaching Astakhova & Rogonov and Beklemisheva & Bobrov.

Prior to that he was coaching Antipova & Maisuradze. I don't know if Maisurandze is getting a new partner and staying with Dmitriev or going back to Pavlova

 

[JJS5056]

I don't know why it is so shocking that the media's reaction to the 1994 and 2002 Olympic pairs results was so different. The reason that the 2002 result was scandalous at all was because S/P and B/S entered the competition being regarded as equals. Whether you agree with it or not, the prevailing viewpoint prior to SLC was that whoever of the two skated cleaner would be the winner. The two had been swapping titles back and forth throughout the 2001 and 2002 seasons, so it was obvious that the judges agreed with this sentiment and that there was so clear-cut favorite. After hearing that rhetoric for over a year, and then seeing a flawed B/S beat a clean S/P, there was bound to be a reaction - though I don't think anyone could have predicted how far it went.

OTOH, G/G entered 1994 as the clear favorites, having never lost a major international title to M/D. They were skating better in their comeback, as well as in practices leading up to and during the Games. G/G would've had to make sizeable errors for a flawless M/D to win the gold - and they didnt. They had one error in the LP - a singled flip (or was it salchow?) by Sergei. His bobble on the other double jump wasn't even considered an error under 6.0 as he kept it on one foot. Meanwhile, M/D delivered a performance that not many expected out of them, but it still was not going to be enough to overtake a near-clean G/G. G/G and M/D were also from the same skating federation - even if there was a case for considering the result a scandal, the media was unlikely to be as involved given that Russia won the gold regardless.

FWIW, I think B/S deserved gold in 2002, and G/G in 1994.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I think the 94 Olympics were a great pairs event and all top 3 were great for all their own reasons. The only team that bored me was Shishkova/Naumov.

 

[Xela M]

G&G also made mistakes in their SP whereas M&D did not and I get what you are saying, but I still don't agree with the difference in reaction (and the 1994 result). G&G had easier jump and throw contents and overall M&D had a much better programme with more difficult jumps and they skated it better. I can just about live with the result, especially given what happened shortly afterwards. I know that G&G have never lost to M&D, but I don't agree with that either. The judging at 1990 Worlds was scandalous.

If S&P hadn't reacted the way they did in 2002, everyone would have forgotten about it and brushed it off as another close competition. I must say I have never been a fan of Nancy Kerrigan, but she would have had a lot more reason to be pissed off at the 1994 results than S&P did in 2002, yet she just brushed it off as one of those things. S&P's reaction (especially because as skaters they knew that B&S were superior in quality!) was just appalling. I don't blame the media for running away with it because S&P put fuel in the fire.

Having said that, with all my dislike for Canadian skaters, I actually really liked Brasseur & Eisler. They were such a great match. She the feisty little brunette, he the big baboon-like character. They made me smile when I watched them. And I have eternal respect for her after having seen this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpVFTnUuuts She fell like 8ft and then got up as if nothing happened and just carried on. I also loved how SHE had to comfort HIM afterwards

 

[trouble77]

Xela, I understand that you have a great passion for M&D, but please don't spout nonsense about "easier Jumps and throw contents" when you clearly understand very little about the sport if nothing at all.

Your “G&G had easier jump and throw contents and overall M&D had a much better programme with more difficult jumps” made me LOL a lot. And the reason is because you don’t know…you don’t understand a fig about technical content, and this is why you can hardly understand why an apparent clean program by M&D can look “SO DIFFICULT” in comparison to an “EASY PROGRAM” "FULL OF TERRIBLE MISTAKES" by G&G.

You sound like a broken record who can only judge a book by its cover.

Talking about books, please trying to find the courage to actually overcome your laziness and:

-Really read “My Sergey”, so next time you quote Katia and her “dissatisfaction” for M&D’s standing ovation, you actually know what you are talking about instead of quoting someone else’s post.

-Really sign up on fsvids.net instead of keep asking for the name of this magic website. Member of this forum have already answered your question at least twice, and if you were less of a gossiper and more a true fun of M&D, you would have seize the opportunity to become a member of fsvids long time ago and dig in every single thread to find videos about Natalia and Arthur.


Finally, log into the official ISU website and get accustomed with the “Scale of Value, Levels of Difficulty and guidelines for marking grade of execution” and start counting points. Also, look at the “Special Regulation and Technical rules” in pair skating. You’ll find out that while G&G have skated “a senior well balanced program” during the Olympics, M&D have skated to “ a junior well balanced program” during the same Olympics.

 

[trouble77]

Natalia and Arthur were the epitome of class. And although I don’t think they were as talented as G&G, they were incredible skaters with great ethics, and they were not appreciated by the judges. Judges were really tough on them, they treated them very severely when they made a mistake…one example is their SP at Euros in 1994. I mean, given a reigning Olympic champions grades below 5?!?! for a lift that was slightly off? Ridiculous.

 

[Xela M]

Xela, I understand that you have a great passion for M&D, but please don't spout nonsense about "easier Jumps and throw contents" when you clearly understand very little about the sport if nothing at all.

Your “G&G had easier jump and throw contents and overall M&D had a much better programme with more difficult jumps” made me LOL a lot. And the reason is because you don’t know…you don’t understand a fig about technical content, and this is why you can hardly understand why an apparent clean program by M&D can look “SO DIFFICULT” in comparison to an “EASY PROGRAM” "FULL OF TERRIBLE MISTAKES" by G&G.

You sound like a broken record who can only judge a book by its cover.

Talking about books, please trying to find the courage to actually overcome your laziness and:

-Really read “My Sergey”, so next time you quote Katia and her “dissatisfaction” for M&D’s standing ovation, you actually know what you are talking about instead of quoting someone else’s post.

-Really sign up on fsvids.net instead of keep asking for the name of this magic website. Member of this forum have already answered your question at least twice, and if you were less of a gossiper and more a true fun of M&D, you would have seize the opportunity to become a member of fsvids long time ago and dig in every single thread to find videos about Natalia and Arthur.


Finally, log into the official ISU website and get accustomed with the “Scale of Value, Levels of Difficulty and guidelines for marking grade of execution” and start counting points. Also, look at the “Special Regulation and Technical rules” in pair skating. You’ll find out that while G&G have skated “a senior well balanced program” during the Olympics, M&D have skated to “ a junior well balanced program” during the same Olympics.

Hi trouble77

I find it really awesome that you developed this crush on me and that you have the time and energy to go through all my posts dating over a year back and follow me around the forum, and that you know all the books I have read and all forums I'm a member of. I also think it's awesome that you believe double jumps and throws are harder than triples, that you think M&D lacked talent and skated juniorish, that you think 1990 Worlds were perfectly judged, that you are more of an expert than Scott Hamilton or most other commentators and all your other cool opinions. Unfortunately, I hadn't even noticed you until yesterday and I find your little obsession with me a bit weird if I'm honest, which is why you have the honour of being the first person on my ignore list.

 

[trouble77]

Hi trouble77

I find it really awesome that you developed this crush on me and that you have the time and energy to go through all my posts dating over a year back and follow me around the forum, and that you know all the books I have read and all forums I'm a member of. I also think it's awesome that you believe double jumps and throws are harder than triples, that you think M&D lacked talent and skated juniorish, that you think 1990 Worlds were perfectly judged, that you are more of an expert than Scott Hamilton or most other commentators and all your other cool opinions. Unfortunately, I hadn't even noticed you until yesterday and I find your little obsession with me a bit weird if I'm honest, which is why you have the honour of being the first person on my ignore list.

The things is I posts rarely, but I have a good memory for people talking crap.

 

[gk_891]

Natalia and Arthur were the epitome of class. And although I don’t think they were as talented as G&G, they were incredible skaters with great ethics, and they were not appreciated by the judges. Judges were really tough on them, they treated them very severely when they made a mistake…one example is their SP at Euros in 1994. I mean, given a reigning Olympic champions grades below 5?!?! for a lift that was slightly off? Ridiculous.

I think that was due to an error. The Czech judge accidentally punched in a 4 instead of 5 for the first digit for both marks. She was apparently seen waving her hands when the marks were revealed.

 

[gk_891]

I thought he was coaching Astakhova & Rogonov and Beklemisheva & Bobrov.

Prior to that he was coaching Antipova & Maisuradze. I don't know if Maisurandze is getting a new partner and staying with Dmitriev or going back to Pavlova

Are any of these teams contenders? The Russian team (with German names) from years back looked like they were maybe on the cusp of making it to the big leagues but I think they broke up not too long ago. I think the lady is now skating with Brian Joubert.

 

[Xela M]

Are any of these teams contenders? The Russian team (with German names) from years back looked like they were maybe on the cusp of making it to the big leagues but I think they broke up not too long ago. I think the lady is now skating with Brian Joubert.

You are referring to Gerboldt & Enbert. They split and he is now skating with the very talented Davankova (from the pair Davankova & Deputat - now became Bazarova & Deputat coached by Vasiliev. Both pairs appear to be very promising and I'm sure you know Bazarova & Larionov had some success on the world stage previously).

Antipova & Maisuradze were extremely promising, but Antipova developed anorexia and they have now split as I understand it. Maisuradze is looking for a partner.

Astakhova & Rogonov look very promising and are now going to Worlds in place of Stolbova & Klimov who withdrew to prepare harder elements for next season.

Beklemisheva & Bobrov are a junior pair and I don't know how promising they are. They were 11th at this year's Junior Worlds.

 

[slipchuk]

Really? I have seen some pretty weird results at competitions in Canada. Couple of examples are S&P's worlds win at 2001 worlds, with a major mistake in the SP (hey were clearly held up) and a smaller mistake in the LP. Another one was at a pro (or something similar) competition when the Wirtzes got higher marks than Kazakova-Dmitriev, who were either worlds bronze medallists or Olympic champions at that time (and they skated pretty well). Artur just shrugged when he saw those marks.

The most obvious Canadian bias was in the 2002 Olympics SP when the Canadian judge placed S&P above B&S who had skated perhaps the best SP ever in a pairs competition, and S&P couldn't hold their end position and had a fall (no penalty under 6.0 though). The German judge was another one on the Canadians' side, but nobody questioned why they placed S&P higher. I would call this (and the one above) judging misconduct, although the Canadians may be smarter at keeping their secret.

People buy into the whole "so humble, sweet, and innocent" Canadians potray of themselves, which is largely purely BS, especialy in figure skating. People delude themselves sweet, humble Canada wouldn't even be capable of cheating (ROTFL).

 

[briancoogaert]

Canadian skaters are not only the least pleasant losers but they have been overscored for years. I struggle to think of a time when a Canadian skater was ever underscored. Yet, they always make the most noise about poor judging...

Not every canadian skater !!!!
Joannie Rochette was not particularly held up circa 2006, and was a pleasant and gracious loser.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Natalia's flexibility wasn't on display during the lifts. They had 2 very simple lifts (the 2nd one being made only moderately more interesting with the dismount) with very safe overhead positions and his footing was not particularly all that good. IIRC, G&G had 3-4 lifts, all more difficult than the 2 that M&D did and Grinkov's footing was far superior than Dmitriev's. M&D had more difficult throws but their throw technique (with both of their hands around her waist before launching her into the air) is considerably easier than the entry technique that G&G used. G&G's throws were also much bigger with a lot more speed and flow going in and going out. The judges had to take these aspects into consideration. Not to mention G&G had absolutely superb edging and effortless speed. M&D also had great speed but you can really hear them digging and scratching into the ice as they stroke to gain speed. The one clear technical edge that M&D had over G&G were their side by side triple toe loops. And to their credit, they made no significant errors (other than a trip by Artur during the straight line footwork sequence and Natalia's solo double axel looked questionable in terms of whether she 2-footed or not - if it's too close to tell though, she should get the benefit of the doubt). Other than that, I don't really think they did anything better technically. Artistically, it's apples and oranges between the two. To be fair, G&G had a much better clarity of movement and polish and more effortless grace. OTOH, M&D had a ton of raw passion and reckless abandon.

Whole post.

COP killed the overall effect of a program, and not just in pairs. However, it's more obvious in pairs than in other disciplines.

Imo Volosozhar/Trankov have managed to overcome the COP's shortcomings. They are the only pair who have reminded me of the great Soviet and Russian pairs of the past

FWIW, I think B/S deserved gold in 2002, and G/G in 1994.

So do I.

 

[JJS5056]

I think the 94 Olympics were a great pairs event and all top 3 were great for all their own reasons. The only team that bored me was Shishkova/Naumov.

Aw, poor Shishkova/Naumov. One of the most underrated teams ever, IMO. There's no doubt in my mind that they deserved the bronze in 1994 over B/E. I loved their traditional look and lines; everything was so neat and polished - they exemplified what pairs is all about. It's too bad their material was never relatable enough to an audience to give them the recognition they deserved. While technically and artistically flawless, their skates left many cold which cost them an Olympic bronze and 2 World titles. Their Ave Maria SP and Meditation LP show that they had the potential to be breathtaking.

 

[Xela M]

Aw, poor Shishkova/Naumov. One of the most underrated teams ever, IMO. There's no doubt in my mind that they deserved the bronze in 1994 over B/E. I loved their traditional look and lines; everything was so neat and polished - they exemplified what pairs is all about. It's too bad their material was never relatable enough to an audience to give them the recognition they deserved. While technically and artistically flawless, their skates left many cold which cost them an Olympic bronze and 2 World titles. Their Ave Maria SP and Meditation LP show that they had the potential to be breathtaking.

Shishkova & Naumov were very good and I felt sorry for them in 1994, as their skate would have probably won them Gold in 1998, but there was something very charming and endearing about Brasseur & Eisler. They had a lot of personality on the ice. She was this little bundle of energy and he appeared to be so dumb it was funny. And although Shishkova & Naumov also had great lifts, somehow Brasseur & Eisler's looked more spectacular. B&E had more expression and the crowd could relate to them.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Shishkova & Naumov were very good and I felt sorry for them in 1994, as their skate would have probably won them Gold in 1998, but there was something very charming and endearing about Brasseur & Eisler. They had a lot of personality on the ice. She was this little bundle of energy and he appeared to be so dumb it was funny. And although Shishkova & Naumov also had great lifts, somehow Brasseur & Eisler's looked more spectacular. B&E had more expression and the crowd could relate to them.

In those days I was sooooooo excited to watch both M&D and Brasseur & Eisler They both had so much to offer.....

 

[nguyhm]

I miss them dearly. There was a certain enigma about them that kept us drawn to them. To me Natalia was very beautiful, a subtle beauty yet full of passion and Artur was the head strong knight that played with her vulnerability and shyness. For some reasons I felt more like he was the one in love with her yet she turned him away so he married someone else. Then she realized what she had lost and went into depression. Moskvina even admitted that Natalia went into depression because Artur got married and had a baby - a family of his own - Natalia was lost - they claimed she looked up to him as a brother. It makes me sad thinking that he did not like her - I always loved how he kissed her hand after each program.... what girl would not swoon for that - I would definitely melt .

 

[Cherub721]

Astakhova & Rogonov look very promising and are now going to Worlds in place of Stolbova & Klimov who withdrew to prepare harder elements for next season.

Artur fans should definitely watch for them at Worlds. IMO, they have the most interesting set of programs of any pair this season.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Xela... I came across this video today and thought of you.

How incredible is this????? What conditions were like then... I had just graduated from high school then and I cant believe how things were 24 yrs ago..

Listen to Paula in the end.. Moskvina would drive around getting their food so they didnt have to wait around in long lines to get food....

Do yo think Natalia talks to Tamara or Artur today?

This piece made me sad... to remember some history when I was 18 yrs old..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynm7TaU8mRk

 

[Spun Silver]

Did Moskvina choreograph Liebestraum?

 

[Taso]

Did Moskvina choreograph Liebestraum?

The choreographer was Alexander Matveev

 

[kwanoverrated]

Really? I have seen some pretty weird results at competitions in Canada. Couple of examples are S&P's worlds win at 2001 worlds, with a major mistake in the SP (hey were clearly held up) and a smaller mistake in the LP. Another one was at a pro (or something similar) competition when the Wirtzes got higher marks than Kazakova-Dmitriev, who were either worlds bronze medallists or Olympic champions at that time (and they skated pretty well). Artur just shrugged when he saw those marks.

The most obvious Canadian bias was in the 2002 Olympics SP when the Canadian judge placed S&P above B&S who had skated perhaps the best SP ever in a pairs competition, and S&P couldn't hold their end position and had a fall (no penalty under 6.0 though). The German judge was another one on the Canadians' side, but nobody questioned why they placed S&P higher. I would call this (and the one above) judging misconduct, although the Canadians may be smarter at keeping their secret.

The Wirtzes also took a bad double fall. K&D were clean. Competitions in Canada are often the joke. No idea why so many are held there, even if they do a good job organizing them otherwise. The fans are usually supportive, but overexuberant to Canadians to the point they cheer even for bad mistakes and bad personal skates, and are rude to the winners when Canadians dont win.

At the Vancouver worlds part of what may have contributed to S&P's controversial win over B&S was in the LP when Jamie did a single axel behind David, some fans also screamed and cheered. Many of the judges were probably fooled and thought it was a double. Then when Bourne & Kraatz came 4th in the dance event the crowd did a stand off against the medalists or something like that.