ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[LeafOnTheWind]

If it is an ISU rule, it is applicable to all ISU members. The invasion of Ukraine has hastened its proposed addition. There is no doubt that Russia is currently contributing to the destabilisation of the world. It has caused a humanitarian crisis in Europe. This is no time to have a country like that being able to compete in sport in a business as usual way.

This is all to say that Gorshkov is quite right that the new rule is a blow against Russia and Belarus. It's just that you find it right and proper, and he doesn't. I mean I don't see anyone making an argument that this should be applied to all countries destabilizing anything anywhere.

Except @allezfred specifically said it applies to all ISU members if it is going to become an ISU rule. So it partially applies to multiple countries but can't apply to all countries if they aren't a part of the ISU.

 

[Karen-W]

No offense but there are many international sports feds that are re-examining their Constitutions and legal charters to add clauses allowing for years suspension or expulsion of member federations that "cause destabilizing situations". The fact that this is happening now... Yes, it is clearly directed at Russia (and Belarus) and it was clearly caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia (and Gorshkov and other sports feds) can complain all they like about it and feel like they are being unfairly targeted, but it's hardly limited to just figure skating or skating in general, and these clauses that are being adopted are going to impact any country in the future that engages in this sort of warlike behavior, especially when it results in 2/3 of the UN General Assembly condemning the action.

 

[caseyedwards]

I think the biggest change is going to be in the women's discipline. For too many years, we've been conditioned to accept tiny jumps with questionable technique as okay and I'm not sure the rest of the feds are going to want to go back to that. The longer the Russian women are missing from competition, the more jarring and obvious those jump deficiencies will be when they do return.

Lol at the idea Russians were bad jumpers! Remember America promoting Caroline zhang and leg wraps and mule kicks as the future

I didn't read it that way at all, and I am not sure why you did. It's a longish piece and only the last two paragraphs suggest that Russia may look into creating a homegrown federation. I happen to think it's quite a pragmatic way out of a bad situation. The fact of the matter is that Russia and Belarus' athletes were banned from competitions for reasons quite outside their control. There is nothing skaters or their federation can do to address the underlying problem, and so they have to live with it in some way. Short of disbanding the national skating program, what else can they do? They have to figure out a way to keep the sport going. Expecting them to do a grand mea culpa performance is quite stupid, considering how utterly unproductive it would be.

You mean all the Russian figure skaters can’t make Putin end his war?

 

[MacMadame]

but skaters and coaches from other countries also talk about “stolen” medals?

I can't say it never happens. But it's rare IME because in many cultures, it's considered bad sportsmanship to complain in this way.

The main time I see it happening is with team sports that are officiated and there are complaints about the calls the officials made. If enough people believe that the calls were bad and impacted the outcome, then people will say one team was robbed and, even if it's the people on the team, they won't be considered bad sports. As long as they don't bitch about it too long, ofc.

I am sure this isn't universal but enough cultures who are involved in figure skating think this way so that complaining about being robbed of medals is just not a routine thing.

 

[Nadya]

No offense but there are many international sports feds that are re-examining their Constitutions and legal charters to add clauses allowing for years suspension or expulsion of member federations that "cause destabilizing situations". The fact that this is happening now... Yes, it is clearly directed at Russia (and Belarus) and it was clearly caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia (and Gorshkov and other sports feds) can complain all they like about it and feel like they are being unfairly targeted, but it's hardly limited to just figure skating or skating in general, and these clauses that are being adopted are going to impact any country in the future that engages in this sort of warlike behavior, especially when it results in 2/3 of the UN General Assembly condemning the action.

LOL none taken - why would get I offended at you repeating what I said?

But I don't share your bright-eyed fervor. No these clauses aren't going to impact "any" country in the future. Some countries are going to continue to be allowed to invade, and some won't. Some victims will continue to count, and some will continue to not. You know that too, I think.

 

[Nadya]

Except @allezfred specifically said it applies to all ISU members if it is going to become an ISU rule. So it partially applies to multiple countries but can't apply to all countries if they aren't a part of the ISU.

I guess we'll have to wait until another ISU member destabilizes something, won't we?

 

[aka_gerbil]

So, would/will/could this new rule also be applied to countries committing human rights abuses?

cough*cough*China*cough*cough

 

[Karen-W]

LOL none taken - why would get I offended at you repeating what I said?

But I don't share your bright-eyed fervor. No these clauses aren't going to impact "any" country in the future. Some countries are going to continue to be allowed to invade, and some won't. Some victims will continue to count, and some will continue to not. You know that too, I think.

No, I don't think it's going to be applied to most countries or situations. But, I do think that when you have egregious actions that result in condemnation from 2/3 of the UN General Assembly, that country can probably expect a similar response from international sports federations. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?

 

[MacMadame]

So, would/will/could this new rule also be applied to countries committing human rights abuses?

cough*cough*China*cough*cough

That wouldn't fall under the wording I have seen. They are talking about things like war. I believe it even says war as one of the examples.

 

[aka_gerbil]

That wouldn't fall under the wording I have seen. They are talking about things like war. I believe it even says war as one of the examples.

China’s treatment of the Muslim Uyghurs is a pretty destabilizing situation for that population. If not covered by the current proposal, isu should think about adding on to include human rights abuses.

 

[jlai]

So, would/will/could this new rule also be applied to countries committing human rights abuses?

cough*cough*China*cough*cough

But then you have to define human rights abuse and that can knock out 25% - 50% of the members, depending on the how broad or narrow the scope is. I mean even first world countries may have some abuses.

 

[Orm Irian]

But then you have to define human rights abuse and that can knock out 25% - 50% of the members, depending on the how broad or narrow the scope is. I mean even first world countries may have some abuses.

It would be hard to find a country on earth that doesn't commit some human rights abuses.

 

[Wyliefan]

Every country does and always has.

 

[Trillian]

But then you have to define human rights abuse and that can knock out 25% - 50% of the members, depending on the how broad and narrow the scope is. I mean even first world countries may have some abuses.

We certainly might.

Realistically, rules that might ban certain countries from participating in international competition for political reasons can’t be too broad or the competition will cease to exist. If our standard is going to be “your government can’t be actively harming anyone,” it sounds great in theory but it also means we don’t have international sports anymore. If we want to preserve the existence of these sports, by necessity we need to err on the side of “not actively trying to wipe another country off the map.”

I do think the relationship between the government and the individual athletes should also be part of the evaluation. Some countries do terrible things, but also actively fund and support athletes who publicly denounce those actions. If one country’s athlete has the freedom to publicly criticize the actions of their government and still be named to the Olympic team, while another country’s athlete might disappear after they do the same thing, those two countries are participating very differently in the international athletic community.

 

[MacMadame]

Every country does and always has.

Not every country. Some countries have human rights abuses committed against them.

China’s treatment of the Muslim Uyghurs is a pretty destabilizing situation for that population.

The criteria are destabilizing for the world. (If the situation in China was destabilizing for the world, you can bet we'd have done something about it or at least tried.)

 

[Vagabond]

I never paid much attention, but skaters and coaches from other countries also talk about “stolen” medals?

They used to. I can't really think of a good example of this since the introduction of COP, at least on the international level.

 

[PRlady]

China’s treatment of the Muslim Uyghurs is a pretty destabilizing situation for that population. If not covered by the current proposal, isu should think about adding on to include human rights abuses.

Given the US track record of police treatment of minorities, Canadians’ First Nations, France and anti-hijab etc, we might be watching a skate-off between Luxembourg and Lichtenstein. One nation’s human rights abuses is another’s majority rule.

Not every country. Some countries have human rights abuses committed against them.

You’d have to look hard to find a purely victimized country. Palestinians are frequently awful to women and LGBTQ, recently colonized Africans are killing each other in Congo and Eritrea, the liberated people of Myanmar ethnically cleansed the Rohingya, Yemen is a bloodbath. The idea that only great powers commit human rights abuses went out the door for me when my second country, founded to be a refuge for a remnant from genocide, turned around and oppressed the people who were already there.

 

[PRlady]

They used to. I can't really think of a good example of this since the introduction of COP, at least on the international level.

Sorry for double post but the fact that we actually had a wuzrobbed emoji might mean that at least here we are somewhat ironic about it?

That said, H/B wuz totally robbed at the Olys.

 

[Wyliefan]

Sorry for double post but the fact that we actually had a wuzrobbed emoji might mean that at least here we are somewhat ironic about it?

That said, H/B wuz totally robbed at the Olys.

They're not even among my faves and I agree with you!

 

[Vagabond]

Sorry for double post but the fact that we actually had a wuzrobbed emoji might mean that at least here we are somewhat ironic about it?

The emoticon predates .

 

[Nadya]

Not every country. Some countries have human rights abuses committed against them.


The criteria are destabilizing for the world. (If the situation in China was destabilizing for the world, you can bet we'd have done something about it or at least tried.)

We can all agree that the invasion of Iraq was hugely destabilizing for the Middle East and the world at large, bringing us such choice morsels as ISIS, a huge wave of Syrian refugees, and the turning of a previously stable country into a violent quicksand.

What happened to the country that was at the business end of it? Nothing. It made some movies about its poor traumatized veterans. The guy who brandished a glass tube at the UN retired to grow roses in McLean. Half a million Iraqis are pushing up daisies and does anyone care besides their mommies? Nope. The zambonis kept on movin'.

And that's what I mean when I say that it has to be the right invader and the right victim for the world to care.

 

[Nadya]

Not every country. Some countries have human rights abuses committed against them.


The criteria are destabilizing for the world. (If the situation in China was destabilizing for the world, you can bet we'd have done something about it or at least tried.)

I think it is important to acknowledge no one here knows WHAT the criteria are. The article implies there is a long list of things of which war is one. Not much is known beyond that. For all you know, objectionable haircuts are on the list, too.

 

[MacMadame]

For all you know, objectionable haircuts are on the list, too.

I know that's not on the list.

 

[allezfred]

And that's what I mean when I say that it has to be the right invader and the right victim for the world to care.

Well, if the USA invades Canada to annex territory and no sanctions are taken against USFS get back to us.

But that’s not your argument is it. What you want is because other countries have done bad things in the past for Russia to have carte blanche to do what it likes with no consequences.

 

[airgelaal]

I don't understand what does it have to do with politics? Russia destroys Ukrainian figure skating. Ice rinks do not work and it is not clear when they will work at all. If they even exist by then. Most Ukrainian figure skaters, coaches and everyone involved in figure skating had to leave the country and look for opportunities to train or work in other countries. Without the ability to return, and for some there is nowhere to return. How long can this last? For most, I guess, it's the end of a career. Unfortunately, most children will have to forget about figure skating. How many years will it take before children can train again? I'm afraid to even imagine how many years will pass. This is a disaster for Ukrainian figure skating.
How did the Russian Federation and Russian athletes react to this? Or Silence, or support for the actions of the country. They consider themselves victims and are only interested in when they will be allowed to compete again. While the figure skating community in other countries is trying to help our skaters, Russia is thinking only of itself. A worthy member of the world figure skating community. Without a doubt.

 

[Hedwig]

And that's what I mean when I say that it has to be the right invader and the right victim for the world to care.

There is a reason the world is caring and that is that a fcking aggressor invaded a neighbouring country without provocation and is committing unspeakable horrors in there.

There is also a reason that the United Nations condemn this war with overwhelming majority. What Russia is doing right now is absolutely fecked up and I for one am ready to never see a Russian figure skater again until the whole country has atoned for it's sins for a long long time and stepped off the high horse onto knees in the mud in front of Ukraine for a while

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Russia is also intent on destroying Ukraine's sports training centers along with everything else. I can fully support banning Russia from international sporting competitions until Ukraine can rebuild these facilities and start training again in whatever sport was affected.

 

[Nadya]

There is a reason the world is caring and that is that a fcking aggressor invaded a neighbouring country without provocation and is committing unspeakable horrors in there.

There is also a reason that the United Nations condemn this war with overwhelming majority. What Russia is doing right now is absolutely fecked up and I for one am ready to never see a Russian figure skater again until the whole country has atoned for it's sins for a long long time and stepped off the high horse onto knees in the mud in front of Ukraine for a while

There is that, and then there is the fact that it's the right aggressor and the right victim.

 

[Nadya]

Well, if the USA invades Canada to annex territory and no sanctions are taken against USFS get back to us.

But that’s not your argument is it. What you want is because other countries have done bad things in the past for Russia to have carte blanche to do what it likes with no consequences.

You're saying it HAS to be a neighboring country? Horrors inflicted across the ocean don't count?

Come now. Be honest. There is nothing the USA can do, nothing at all, that will result in sanctions of any kind. You know it and I know it and the rest of this board knows it.

 

[Nadya]

I don't understand what does it have to do with politics? Russia destroys Ukrainian figure skating. Ice rinks do not work and it is not clear when they will work at all. If they even exist by then. Most Ukrainian figure skaters, coaches and everyone involved in figure skating had to leave the country and look for opportunities to train or work in other countries. Without the ability to return, and for some there is nowhere to return. How long can this last? For most, I guess, it's the end of a career. Unfortunately, most children will have to forget about figure skating. How many years will it take before children can train again? I'm afraid to even imagine how many years will pass. This is a disaster for Ukrainian figure skating.
How did the Russian Federation and Russian athletes react to this? Or Silence, or support for the actions of the country. They consider themselves victims and are only interested in when they will be allowed to compete again. While the figure skating community in other countries is trying to help our skaters, Russia is thinking only of itself. A worthy member of the world figure skating community. Without a doubt.

This is a very good, heartfelt argument that makes sense to both the heart and the head.

Unfortunately, no one made THAT argument at the ISU.