Incident at Disney on Ice performance in Winnipeg

[Twilight1]

If you have the chance, I highly recommend going to pow wows, sweatlodges and smudging and if you are very lucky liaten to elders telling you about their peoples.

When I was in Thunder Bay I was part of a healing circle. I was welcomed with open arms. I have also done smudging on various occasions. A couple elders there pulled me aside and chatted with me for awhile. Cherished memories

 

[Mozart]

When I was in Thunder Bay I was part of a healing circle. I was welcomed with open arms. I have also done smudging on various occasions. A couple elders there pulled me aside and chatted with me for awhile. Cherished memories

As I said earlier I taught on reserve for 6.5 year and they treated me like a community member. I went to a lot of community events both as the music teacher leading the students singing o canada in mi'kmaq as well on my own free will. It was so interesting how they incorporated the traditional teachings and religion with Catholicism. The Mi'kmaq are very religious which surprised me as I assumed they would dislike Catholicism because of what the Catholic church did to them in the residential schools and throughout history. Sadly because of the location of the reserve there are very few fluent Mi'kmaq speakers in the community and most kids come to school only knowing the bare minimum. They have Mi'kmaq class but it's pretty low level.

My best experience was a field trip they brought teachers and elders on to the mist sacred spot for the Mi'kmaq. It's a difficult hike to a cave where they believe the creator travelled back an forth from the world to the spirit world. I could definitely feel the sacredness around me. We built a fire, got smudged and drank tea.

 

[Tinami Amori]

So first thing, Amorihttp://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/intro2.html
Also any peer reviewed articles on self determination and indigenous peoples will also give a great perspective.
I hate the title of this book but it is very enlightening.
https://muse.jhu.edu/book/35470

Thank you! I read what was available, the last two links are extremely interesting and informative, and i am not just saying it for sake of saying......and i searched in addition for articles on “economics and decolonization”. The treatment of Native Indians is despicable, must stop, laws must be enforced, and the right of Self-Determination and creation of Native Indian self-governed communities must be supported by land and initial resources. Those are worthy causes and absolutely necessary. While those issues are developed, existing civil rights must apply to all and be enforced.

And.. in the “Red Skin, White Mask” and other materials I found, there are refs to Hegel, Marx’s “Das Kapital”, “transformative” and “affirmative” forms of redistribution, “primitive accumulation of capital”, economics of “hunter-gatherer tribes” vs. “capitalism/free market economy”….. and that’s “like a red rag to a bull” for me.

I believe in the right of Self-Determination, recognize the effects economic and cultural of colonization, and to me it means that any group of people, who objects to the effects of such and not willing to accept, has a right to create their own independent society/country/community, side by side with an alternate society, but not demand the integration of two conflicting economic systems. I came across the ocean from USSR to North America exactly for capitalism and free-market economy; Anglo-Saxon work ethics, and ideals of European judeo-christian culture. I have a right to self-determination too, while respecting “neighbor’s choice” of their economy and culture and territory. Two families, two houses, two ways of life, prune your branches so that junk does not fall into neighbor’s yard, and when meet on the street tip your hat and say a pleasant hallo, and don’t bump your neighbor’s car. But that’s another subject.

Unfortunately, I still did not find an answer what prevented, legally and out of instinctual sense of self-preservation (which is common to all living creatures of any culture and environment, especially to people who come from “nature” and centuries of systematic discrimination) this woman from documenting the incident and reporting it to the authorities, at least as an attempt to follow a currently existing method of defending her family’s civil rights and cultural identity and gaining at least some arsenal in punishing the offenders/jerks? I would not have the same questions IF this woman did not go to the press afterwords, without documenting the offenses.... which tells me, she is willing to take action in her defense...

 

[Japanfan]

Then either separate your cultural group from the confrontational one, or learn to confront and win.

It is often impossible for people from different cultural groups to avoid interacting, especially if they live in the same town or city and go to the same places (i.e. restaurants, public parks, concerts, movies).

And you can't just tell a person from a group that is non-confrontational in nature to learn to "confront and win".

Take for example Japan, which has a very collectivist and non-confrontational society. Social harmony is the most important value in Japan, and comes at a high very high cost (individuality).

The importance of social harmony is evident is much of Japanese culture and society: the orderly way people line up to catch the train, the finely sculpted gardens, the 'sameness' among people - from how they dress to what they do (the office worker and the housewife), the attention to aesthetics in design and decoration.

Japanese children start learning the importance of social harmony before they can even walk. I'm sure the Japanese languages all have features which support it, and many social practices support it as well.

How is a person from such a society going to be able to learn to be confrontational?

Indigenous people are collectivist in nature, just as the Japanese are, and also place a high value on the well-being of the group.

I'll add that they do have processes for dealing with grievances, disagreements and conflicts (i.e. healing circles), but those processes are non-confrontational

In my opinion, we in the west have much to learn from societies that are different from us.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It is often impossible for people from different cultural groups to avoid interacting, especially if they live in the same town or city and go to the same places (i.e. restaurants, public parks, concerts, movies).

And you can't just tell a person from a group that is non-confrontational in nature to learn to "confront and win".

Take for example Japan, which has a very collectivist and non-confrontational society. Social harmony is the most important value in Japan, and comes at a high very high cost (individuality).

The importance of social harmony is evident is much of Japanese culture and society: the orderly way people line up to catch the train, the finely sculpted gardens, the 'sameness' among people - from how they dress to what they do (the office worker and the housewife), the attention to aesthetics in design and decoration.

Japanese children start learning the importance of social harmony before they can even walk. I'm sure the Japanese languages all have features which support it, and many social practices support it as well.

How is a person from such a society going to be able to learn to be confrontational?

Indigenous people are collectivist in nature, just as the Japanese are, and also place a high value on the well-being of the group.

I'll add that they do have processes for dealing with grievances, disagreements and conflicts (i.e. healing circles), but those processes are non-confrontational

In my opinion, we in the west have much to learn from societies that are different from us.

The phrase you underlined is old, I’ve already moved on to other issues.

Japan is not a good example, given its centuries of isolation. Today’s Japan is somewhat “collectivist” compared to USA, and “individualistic” compared to other Asian cultures. It is historically “collectivist” in terms of nationalism and external affairs, and becoming more and more “individualistic” locally/internally, with newer generations which put more and more emphasis on individual self-determination, economic prosperity and financial independence. Development of cities vs. rural areas also contributes to "individualism". People living in remote rural areas are naturally more "collectivist", it's a survival requirement. There is plenty of research that covers this subject.

The changes are caused primarily by improvements in Japanese economics; the wealthier people get, the more individualistic they become. It’s true to many societies. Same situation is starting to take place in China, now that private businesses are allowed and working abroad for foreign corporations.

Respect for the elders, social traditions and public courtesy is not exclusive Japanese traits, nor exclusive to the “collectivist” societies. Other factors create such elements, religion, education, and few other.

Respect for the Elders as a Japanese culture because it is a "collective society" is a complete BS. When Japan was less economically prosperous, in rural communities elderly family members were taken into the woods or up the mountains and left to die and be eaten by vultures, as a tradition. Now they live with families or in nursing homes, until natural death.

I am the epitome of "individualism" yet i highly respect elders, my own and others, help with luggage, crossing the street, freeing up a seat, etc..... and willing to sacrifice time, space, money taking care of family members in my own house. i stand up for teachers and higher ranking business associates; i don't steal stuff, and if someone drops an umbrella or a wallet i chase them and return..... and i am not Japanese and very "individualistic".

People “group for support” out of need and fear, or out of realization they can’t handle things on their own. Prosperity and success of a nation leads to individual autonomy. “Collectivism” is usually out of need, and a form of co-dependence. A negative!

North America promised us individualism and capitalism, and it better keep what is promised. We moved from “collectivist” USSR across the ocean, with 2 suitcases and less than 100 dollars. It was difficult first years, but we learned the system and it works just fine.

If you want “collectivism” go and live on Kibbutz, or create one. I like individualistic, capitalistic, free-market system, and I am going to fight to keep it.

 

[Tinami Amori]

duplic. pst. dlt.

 

[Japanfan]

Japan is not a good example, given its centuries of isolation. Today’s Japan is somewhat “collectivist” compared to USA, and “individualistic” compared to other Asian cultures. It is historically “collectivist” in terms of nationalism and external affairs, and becoming more and more “individualistic” locally/internally, with newer generations which put more and more emphasis on individual self-determination, economic prosperity and financial independence. Development of cities vs. rural areas also contributes to "individualism". People living in remote rural areas are naturally more "collectivist", it's a survival requirement. There is plenty of research that covers this subject.

I have heard the younger generation of Japanese today are becoming more individualistic.

The changes are caused primarily by improvements in Japanese economics; the wealthier people get, the more individualistic they become. It’s true to many societies. Same situation is starting to take place in China, now that private businesses are allowed and working abroad for foreign corporations.

I don't think your theory holds true for Saudi Arabia. It could be that the men are individualistically oriented, I really don't know, but the lack of religious freedom (and mandatory prayer) certainly don't support individualism. I would think it would be difficult for women to be individualistic, given the restrictions that they have to live with (i.e. don't have the freedom to express their individuality in how they dress). Yes, Saudi women did recently get the right to drive (as well as the right to vote in local/civic elections IIRC). But from what I understand, this right was granted because it would make it easier for women to get to work, which would be good for the economy - not because it was something that women should be entitled to as human beings.

I read a theory some years ago stating that when a state has wealth, i.e. oil wealth, and citizens benefit from that wealth, they can be complicit with state should it deny human rights and perpetuate social injustices. This is sort of the opposite of what you are proposing.

People “group for support” out of need and fear, or out of realization they can’t handle things on their own. Prosperity and success of a nation leads to individual autonomy. “Collectivism” is usually out of need, and a form of co-dependence. A negative!

Not necessarily. Some Indigenous peoples have prospered in the past (not saying none are doing so today, but am referring to traditional Indigenous societies). Traditionally, such prosperity is shared among the clan (or similar unit). Some Indigenous societies have had social hierarchies that reflected prosperity, but they were also collectivist in nature.[/QUOTE]

 

[Japanfan]

Unfortunately, I still did not find an answer what prevented, legally and out of instinctual sense of self-preservation (which is common to all living creatures of any culture and environment, especially to people who come from “nature” and centuries of systematic discrimination) this woman from documenting the incident and reporting it to the authorities, at least as an attempt to follow a currently existing method of defending her family’s civil rights and cultural identity and gaining at least some arsenal in punishing the offenders/jerks? I would not have the same questions IF this woman did not go to the press afterwords, without documenting the offenses.... which tells me, she is willing to take action in her defense...

I think this the answer has been given. First Nations/Indigenous people have been burned by authorities and discriminated against by them. So,the woman probably does not trust authorities, so reporting to them would not look like a feasible option for her.

 

[Japanfan]

So... i still think the woman should have, and had the ability, to demand that the other family kids would stop harassing her kids, to document the incident and report to authorities, and if no results, take that to higher level and to the press.

Again, she may have not trust in authorities, have been previously beaten down, denigrated, and demeaned by them, and given this situation, it is likely they would not believe her account and if they did, wouldnot care about it.

I think people are a bit frustrated and a little appalled that you choose to solely focus on the victim and how she isn't strong or didn't teach her kids a good lesson, according to you. We get it. You don't like the way this woman handled it and if it were you, you would kick their asses or force the rink management (and if that didn't work, then the police) to handle it and if you faced injustice/jail time/etc. you would have recorded the incident and THEN contact the press with images of those people who started it with police mistreatment (because that always works out well for POC and for indigenous people who have been brutalized and victimized by authority).

Not everybody is as strong as you supposedly are Tinami or learned how to fight back. Nobody is saying you should make this lady out to be admirable or a hero, but surely you can try to sympathize with someone who may not be strong enough to confront bigoted behavior as she probably was victimized by it her whole life and learned to "ignore" it as a survival skill. I know so many strong people who confronted with straight up bigotry and harassment who just shut down because they simply cannot deal with it and/or are seriously afraid of confrontation and the consequences of it. It's learned behavior and there's a reason why it was learned.

This.

She knows. What she has learned is that people reached out to her, so that the next time, maybe she will say something. Aboriginal culture is very different from euro/euro descents ie most of NA. In your face rudeness is not something that they learn. Kindness has made a difference to her and her offspring. I hope it gives her the courage to say something next time, and to realize that not all white people are jerks.

And this, too.