Can't Help Falling In Love ... with Hubbell & Donohue (fan thread #2)

[aka_gerbil]

Maybe we can wait to actually see the program before we decide it’s bad.

 

[clairecloutier]

Maybe we can wait to actually see the program before we decide it’s bad.

Always a good idea

 

[Bigbird]

Always a good idea

I lurved Gui/Fab by the way. Just saying.

 

[Sylvia]

From the U.S. International Classic after the RD: https://twitter.com/LynnRutherford/status/1439053632595505157

[H/D] sit 1st w/84.06. After considering Billie Eilish, the skaters chose a Janet Jackson RD: "It wasn't something intellectually we thought would be the best choice but the stars aligned & we fell in love with it."
Regular choreographer Sam Chouinard recommended dancer @vincentnoiseux, who performed in Janet Jackson's shows. Says Hubbell: "Vincent helped create that mix of retro, mixed with the more modern Rope Burn (that has) that sexy, bluesy quality."
The goal this season? Hubbell: "Of course Olympic gold, why not go for it?"

ETA their costumes in FD practice today (Saturday): https://twitter.com/michlmint/status/1439275242329939968

 

[clairecloutier]

So having seen H/D's new programs in person at Classic, I can only say I was pretty swept away by both performances--especially the FD, but really both. It's a little hard to be objective; I tend to like most of what Madi/Zach put on the ice. However ... that said ... I find this season's programs to be pretty exciting, more so than last year. I had worried that another lyrical FD would be too similar to Hallelujah, but I didn't feel that way at all upon seeing the FD last night. It went by so quickly and felt so complete, gorgeous, and spectacular, too, with the new lift. (I don't know what the fate of that lift will be, with concerns about the legality, but I have to assume that this was considered before putting it out there; guess we will see what happens.) And the rhythm dance was really strong. I thought it felt a lot more confident, smooth, and developed than some of their recent RDs. I really enjoyed it. Personally, I thought they did great with the hip-hop dance moves.

The difference in ice coverage, speed, and flow between them and all other teams at Classic was so noticeable. I always find this to be the case when watching H/D live; their basic skating skills are just so strong. They're a joy to watch.

 

[angi]

@clairecloutier If only their scores reflected how much stronger they are... I was watching from home and I agree with your assessment, they are also the only team so far to not include stops during the FD which makes it flow better but also showcase their strengths (and obviously makes it more difficult). I think they have a good set of programs, I just wish they were rewarded for their efforts.

 

[Bigbird]

@clairecloutier If only their scores reflected how much stronger they are... I was watching from home and I agree with your assessment, they are also the only team so far to not include stops during the FD which makes it flow better but also showcase their strengths (and obviously makes it more difficult). I think they have a good set of programs, I just wish they were rewarded for their efforts.

This is why dance is so incomprehensible.

 

[angi]

This is why dance is so incomprehensible.

And it's only getting worse. The transition to the -5/+5 scoring system might have made sense for the three other disciplines but it's ruining ice dance. Levels lost almost all meaning in the scoring, choreographic elements can contribute 3-5 points to a gap in scores between teams with the same BV, and a team like Davis/Smolkin can somehow get the same GOE score for the combination lift and the circular step sequence when H/D have much better speed, edge quality, knee bend, and ice coverage.

 

[taz'smum]

And it's only getting worse. The transition to the -5/+5 scoring system might have made sense for the three other disciplines but it's ruining ice dance. Levels lost almost all meaning in the scoring, choreographies element can contribute 3-5 points to a gap in scores between teams with the same BV, and a team like Davis/Smolkin can somehow get the same GOE score for the combination lift and the circular step sequence when H/D have much better speed, edge quality, knee bend, and ice coverage.

I totally agree. Technique doesn't matter anymore

 

[angi]

I totally agree. Technique doesn't matter anymore

It's not really the right place for it but I do hope Tiff and John will get that 3rd Olympic spot, it was troubling watching the scores that D/S got this weekend, and while they are a nice and improving team they don't have a lot to show for those scores in my opinion.

 

[sap5]

And it's only getting worse. The transition to the -5/+5 scoring system might have made sense for the three other disciplines but it's ruining ice dance. Levels lost almost all meaning in the scoring, choreographic elements can contribute 3-5 points to a gap in scores between teams with the same BV, and a team like Davis/Smolkin can somehow get the same GOE score for the combination lift and the circular step sequence when H/D have much better speed, edge quality, knee bend, and ice coverage.

Agree. H/D had pretty low scores for their choreographic elements, and I’m not sure how they can dramatically increase them. It’s too subjective.

 

[taz'smum]

It all started to go wrong for dance when the difference between the base values of the elements was reduced.
There used to be a really big difference between level 3 and level 4 step sequences for example.
If that was put back, there would be a much greater difference in TES between those with good technique from those without, which would not be 'fixable' with GOE.

 

[Bigbird]

And it's only getting worse. The transition to the -5/+5 scoring system might have made sense for the three other disciplines but it's ruining ice dance. Levels lost almost all meaning in the scoring, choreographic elements can contribute 3-5 points to a gap in scores between teams with the same BV, and a team like Davis/Smolkin can somehow get the same GOE score for the combination lift and the circular step sequence when H/D have much better speed, edge quality, knee bend, and ice coverage.

Madness. How HD and PC are outscored for PCS by anyone four fifths of the time boggles the mind. How do SK score the way they do with shaky lifts and spins and Katsalapov's head case twizzles just make no sense. It's like they just look the other way. But it will never change. We just need new blood both on the ice and off.

 

[skylark]

So having seen H/D's new programs in person at Classic, I can only say I was pretty swept away by both performances--especially the FD, but really both. It's a little hard to be objective; I tend to like most of what Madi/Zach put on the ice. However ... that said ... I find this season's programs to be pretty exciting, more so than last year. I had worried that another lyrical FD would be too similar to Hallelujah, but I didn't feel that way at all upon seeing the FD last night. It went by so quickly and felt so complete, gorgeous, and spectacular, too, with the new lift. (I don't know what the fate of that lift will be, with concerns about the legality, but I have to assume that this was considered before putting it out there; guess we will see what happens.) And the rhythm dance was really strong. I thought it felt a lot more confident, smooth, and developed than some of their recent RDs. I really enjoyed it. Personally, I thought they did great with the hip-hop dance moves.

The difference in ice coverage, speed, and flow between them and all other teams at Classic was so noticeable. I always find this to be the case when watching H/D live; their basic skating skills are just so strong. They're a joy to watch.

I wasn't present at AC, but I agree with your whole post. I've seen Madi and Zach live, and they are just incredible. What you get is a real demonstration of the power and beauty of edges, the power of emotion, and a strong impression that these are Skaters with a capital S.

I don't know much about ID scoring, but I'm very worried about that first lift. It seemed illegal to me, with Zach holding Madi above his head with his arms extended. The thing is, will judging panels disagree about this? Could they get as far as the Olympics or even the GPF with the implicit approval of the judges that it's okay for ice dance? If they got to the GPF and then it was judged illegal for ID, then that would be a real setback for them personally but also for their reputation and chances in February. I just can't understand why Dubreuil would take this chance, when Madi and Zach would clearly be ahead of S/K skills-wise.

Aaaaah .... I will be happy if someone can talk me out of this worry.

ETA: So, TSL tells me there's a rule change that allows that lift, as long as the guy's elbows stay bent. I suppose I can relax a bit.

 

[VGThuy]

It all started to go wrong for dance when the difference between the base values of the elements was reduced.
There used to be a really big difference between level 3 and level 4 step sequences for example.
If that was put back, there would be a much greater difference in TES between those with good technique from those without, which would not be 'fixable' with GOE.

Agreed. I think whoever made the changes and those who supported such changes really didn't like the power the tech panel had over the results (which was based on execution and achieving the right levels) and they wanted to give power back to the judges to determine results without nearly as much emphasis on actual levels achieved by the competitors. AKA...turning ice dancing back to what it was before IJS. In some ways, ice dance did need more room to breathe and to let the artistry/dance and some subjectivity back because it was becoming just about itemized elements, but they went way too far now. Putting in too much subjectivity not only takes the power away from the tech panel but also away from the skaters themselves who are now more at a loss as to how they can score higher despite doing what they're supposed to be doing technique wise.

 

[Bigbird]

Agreed. I think whoever made the changes and those who supported such changes really didn't like the power the tech panel had over the results (which was based on execution and achieving the right levels) and they wanted to give power back to the judges to determine results without nearly as much emphasis on actual levels achieved by the competitors. AKA...turning ice dancing back to what it was before IJS. In some ways, ice dance did need more room to breathe and to let the artistry/dance and some subjectivity back because it was becoming just about itemized elements, but they went way too far now. Putting in too much subjectivity not only takes the power away from the tech panel but also away from the skaters themselves who are now more at a loss as to how they can score higher despite doing what they're supposed to be doing technique wise.

Never mind.

 

[Sylvia]

Lynn Rutherford spoke to Hubbell/Donohue & Lauzon at the U.S. Classic in Norwood, Mass. for this article (Sept. 21): https://www.teamusa.org/News/2021/S...y-Donohue-Fight-For-Excellence-When-It-Counts
Excerpts:

Their free dance to French singer Anna Sila’s “Drowning,” choreographed by Dubreuil and three-time Canadian Olympic champion Scott Moir, is far more lyrical and romantic.
“We actually struggled to find something that we really felt passionate about, for our free dance,” Donohue said. “We didn’t want to revisit an old Maddie and Zach energy. We wanted something new to celebrate where we were in our career and our vision. Our lift coach, Sebastian Soldevilla, brought us this music. He said, ‘I see you guys skating to this, no one has ever done it before.’”
I think it captures how we’re feeling about this season in general,” Hubbell said. “We know we are going to retire, and there is joy, but it is also melancholic, bittersweet. And that’s a little bit how it felt when we heard the lyrics. It feels haunting. … Basically, she sings, ‘Hush now, and let me feel.’”

Re. the new lift:

“This is probably the part where they try to improve the most — bringing in bigger, more innovative, harder lifts,” Lauzon said. “All of their lifts are new. We worked (on this lift) for a long time.”
The team credits Soldevilla with helping them perfect the move, a process they estimate took about 15 months.
“It feels good to go out on the ice and be proud and to think, ‘I can say I have one of the coolest, most unusual and difficult lift in the field,’” Hubbell said. [...]
“It wasn’t our best, there were little issues of GOE (grade of execution) in every element, but overall we got good feedback (from the judges),” Hubbell said.

... the duo plans to wrap-up their competitive career at the 2022 World Figure Skating Championships next March in Montpellier, France.
“By then, it will be time,” Hubbell said. “There are other passions we both want to pursue.”

ETA:

WOOD TV8 / West Michigan TV news story (Sept. 21):

Hubbell, Donohue eye Beijing Olympics to close out partnership

Ice dancers Madison Hubbell and Zach Donohue are aiming to go out on a high note. (Sept. 21, 2021)

www.youtube.com

 

[semogal]

Congrats to Madi and Zach on winning their fourth straight Skate America title with a beautiful peformance! https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2021/10/24/ice-dance-hubbell-donohue-chock-bates-skate-america/

 

[skylark]

Congrats to Madi and Zach on winning their fourth straight Skate America title with a beautiful peformance! https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2021/10/24/ice-dance-hubbell-donohue-chock-bates-skate-america/

I didn't know I could fall even more in love with Madi and Zach, but I did. Their FD is a piece of art with undertones of love, sex and innuendo, all the while skated with power and lyrical beauty. The RD is stunning in a completely different way, highlighting their power and their "all-in" attitude. Nobody does hip-hop like they do, IMO. Together the two programs really to show how diversely talented they are!

This week-end was especially enlightening and exciting for me, because I'd watched both dances at International Classic a few weeks ago, and I was underwhelmed and even worried. Not any more!

Also, with the lift that's newly acceptable under the rules, I realized anew that they're so brave! It's risky. They're putting themselves on the line. And when I saw it during an early practice at SA, it absolutely took my breath away. Now, each time, it's still breathtaking and beautiful.

 

[SidelineSkater]

I didn't know I could fall even more in love with Madi and Zach, but I did. Their FD is a piece of art with undertones of love, sex and innuendo, all the while skated with power and lyrical beauty. The RD is stunning in a completely different way, highlighting their power and their "all-in" attitude. Nobody does hip-hop like they do, IMO. Together the two programs really to show how diversely talented they are!

This week-end was especially enlightening and exciting for me, because I'd watched both dances at International Classic a few weeks ago, and I was underwhelmed and even worried. Not any more!

Also, with the lift that's newly acceptable under the rules, I realized anew that they're so brave! It's risky. They're putting themselves on the line. And when I saw it during an early practice at SA, it absolutely took my breath away. Now, each time, it's still breathtaking and beautiful.

This x1000. Their power, speed and edges are so breathtaking. I haven’t had time to go back and watch the broadcast performances yet, and I was too nervous for them watching live in the arena (and taking pics) to fully appreciate the performances.

They are very equal partners and compliment each other perfectly. Not many teams have that dynamic.

I wasn’t completely sold on the free dance from last month but it’s grown and just flows so well.

As for the controversial lift - it’s risky but rewarding at the same time. Kind of like art - subjective, controversial but creates a buzz.

 

[Plusdinfo]

I think Madi and Zach did a great free dance, but I find the music poor. Oh well.

 

[semogal]

This x1000. Their power, speed and edges are so breathtaking. I haven’t had time to go back and watch the broadcast performances yet, and I was too nervous for them watching live in the arena (and taking pics) to fully appreciate the performances.

They are very equal partners and compliment each other perfectly. Not many teams have that dynamic.

I wasn’t completely sold on the free dance from last month but it’s grown and just flows so well.

As for the controversial lift - it’s risky but rewarding at the same time. Kind of like art - subjective, controversial but creates a buzz.

Jealous that you got to see them in-person. Still trying to decide if I can afford to go to Nationals

 

[skylark]

This x1000. Their power, speed and edges are so breathtaking. I haven’t had time to go back and watch the broadcast performances yet, and I was too nervous for them watching live in the arena (and taking pics) to fully appreciate the performances.

They are very equal partners and compliment each other perfectly. Not many teams have that dynamic.

I wasn’t completely sold on the free dance from last month but it’s grown and just flows so well.

As for the controversial lift - it’s risky but rewarding at the same time. Kind of like art - subjective, controversial but creates a buzz.

Spot on. And you said something I forgot ... their speed and edges are so stunning. I didn't fully appreciate them until I saw them live at 2019 Nationals. What they do is take command of the ice and compel the whole arena to watch them and 'be' on the ice with them. It's just beyond thrilling.

@semogal said:
Jealous that you got to see them in-person. Still trying to decide if I can afford to go to Nationals

This is Madi and Zach's last year. Max out your credit card! (say I, who probably won't be going this year. But I'm so happy I experienced them in person)

 

[Plusdinfo]

I believe that what makes Madi and Zach so special (among other things) is that they have incredible speed and edges but also great musical interpretation. It's one thing to be fast but skate over the music or not naturally connect to music. It's a totally other story to be skilled skaters with excellent speed and still manage to perform to music in a convincing way. I'm so glad that this team has had some phenomenal results, although I am pleased with their skating alone and don't need judges to validate my opinions of their talents.

 

[Vash01]

IMO they are the best ice dance team in the US right now. I am rooting for them to win the nationals and medal at the Olympics.

 

[Sylvia]

Fan Zone article by Darci Miller before H/D compete in their 2nd GP in Italy this week:

After Final Skate America® Title, Hubbell and Donohue Set Sights on Larger Goals - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

When Madison Hubbell and Zachary Donohue headed to Las Vegas for 2021 Guaranteed Rate Skate America, they knew it would be their last one.

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Excerpt:

Their rhythm dance, meanwhile, is set to a Janet Jackson medley and has provided some thrills of its own.
It was choreographed in part by Vincent Noiseux, who was a backup dancer on Jackson's last tour.
"He reposted our video a few days ago, and then Janet Jackson saw it and reposted it [via Instagram story]," Hubbell said before squealing. "Janet Jackson has officially seen me skate. I can retire now."
"No, you can't," Donohue joked. "Not yet."
"A couple more months," Hubbell conceded. "I'm pretty satisfied."

 

[VGThuy]

I continue to be amazed at their sheer skating quality. I want them to medal at the Olympics so badly.

 

[Spikefan]

Jealous that you got to see them in-person. Still trying to decide if I can afford to go to Nationals

I’m thinking of flying in Friday night and flying home Sunday night, going to the three Saturday events and the Men’s free on Sunday. For me it’s more my work schedule. This will allow me to see everyone but the women one last time.

Maybe hotels will get cheaper as the event nears and you could do something similar.

 

[sap5]

I wonder why they want a World title but not an Olympic one.

"I would definitely like to retire with an Olympic medal and a World title," Donohue said. "Those are our two biggest goals, for sure.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I wonder why they want a World title but not an Olympic one.

They probably do, but politics are pretty stacked against them.