Canadian #1 dance team from 2019 to 2022

[starrynight]

It's intriguing how most discussions about WP inevitably end up in a 'they are not as good as VM' loop. Neither are any of the other Canadian teams (past or present). Why do WP always get this comparison and the other teams don't?

 

[dramagrrl]

It's intriguing how most discussions about WP inevitably end up in a 'they are not as good as VM' loop. Neither are any of the other Canadian teams (past or present). Why do WP always get this comparison and the other teams don't?

I can only speak for myself, but the only reason I brought up the V/M comparison is because an earlier poster said that s/he thought W/P should have won the FD at Canadians, and having watched the competition live, I strongly disagree. I then extended my point to say that while I was making the comparison, I don't think W/P are close to V/M even on their best day.

I would say that the fact that they are the only Canadian team that get compared to V/M is a compliment. I think everyone realizes how ludicrous it would be to compare G/P or any of the other more upcoming teams to V/M unless it was the type of comparison in which someone was saying something along the lines of "at this point in their progress, they are similar to V/M when they were at ___ stage in their career" or another similar example.

 

[savchenkoboss]

W&P though are super unlucky to have competed at the time of V&M, and then have V&M make an unexpected return when people thought they were retired to boot. I have no doubt their results are much better automatically as Canadian #1 to Canadian #2. The amount of politics they get from Skate Canada are at another level. Of course V&M are fighting for gold so Skate Canada will give 100% of their effort to them, there is nothing left for anyone else.

There is no way W&P finish 7th at their 2 Olympics had V&M not been there and they been firmly Canadian #1. I dont know if they would have medaled at either, but even that isnt entirely impossible (especialy 2018, when they now only need to beat 1 of the American teams, keeping in mind with V&M gone everyone has already moved up a spot too).

 

[angi]

To be completely honest I never understood the claims that W/P are constantly underscored intentionally. They have a huge issue with consistency and they tend to mess up a lot when it counts the most. After each competition I love to go over the protocols and try to analyze the scoring and see the trends and one thing that was always obvious was that W/P biggest issue have always been their inconsistent twizzles and their inability to get the levels. PCS wise they were usually top 5 at any given point in the last quad and could have had a real shot at the bronze, but their lack of consistency have been their biggest Achilles heel and I think it's not helpful to them that we keep making excuses for them - if they want to really go for 2022 they need to work hard on their technical abilities, without it no matter how good they are, they will never reach their full potential.
The other issue is their material as far as I'm concerned, they seem to have bad instincts about it having switched one of their programs (short or free) in 3/4 seasons in this quad. It's a sign that they are not good at picking the right vehicle for them and that's something they need to improve. And really, bringing back Je suis malade all the way back from 2012 was an understandable choice but still a very disappointing one, they were the only top dance team to recycle a program and not create something new, and I think in retrospect it worked against them.
Right now it feels like there are at least 3 new promising Canadian teams that might advance and be able to fight for a podium finish in 2022. FB/S are my favorites, but S/F and L/L are also teams to watch. G/P are a bigger mystery since it seems like judges don't really like their quirky style. It's hard to guess how the Canadian ranking will look like in a year or two at the moment, but assuming W/P will stay only for 2020, it can be a real bloodbath between G/P, FB/S, S/F and L/L (assuming they all stick around and stay healthy of course).

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don't think W&P are brutally underscored or anything, but they generally aren't given the benefit of the doubt. They could have easily been given the bronze at both the 2011 worlds and 2017 worlds with absolutely no controversy about it but weren't either time (and they made no technical errors on either occasion). Their 7th at both Olympics were stingy results, they probably should have placed a place or two higher both times. They weren't exactly scored generously at the 2015 and 2016 worlds, particularly with the momentum they should have had coming in given their seasons. Even moreso when they are Canadian #2 (which doesn't apply to 2015 or 2016 obviously). They probably should have won the 2014 worlds, either them or P&B, no way did C&L deserve it. Being Canadian #1 for a longer time for sure would help them.

Even early in their career they should have been splitting meetings with Crone & Poirier in 2010-2011 but Crone & Poirier came out ahead basically every single time, sometimes in questionable decisions.

 

[screech]

To be completely honest I never understood the claims that W/P are constantly underscored intentionally. They have a huge issue with consistency and they tend to mess up a lot when it counts the most. After each competition I love to go over the protocols and try to analyze the scoring and see the trends and one thing that was always obvious was that W/P biggest issue have always been their inconsistent twizzles and their inability to get the levels. PCS wise they were usually top 5 at any given point in the last quad and could have had a real shot at the bronze, but their lack of consistency have been their biggest Achilles heel and I think it's not helpful to them that we keep making excuses for them - if they want to really go for 2022 they need to work hard on their technical abilities, without it no matter how good they are, they will never reach their full potential.

IIRC, their TES always used to be comparatively higher than their PCS - their TES was what kept them in the mix. For example, at 2011 Worlds, they were 7th in the SD but 5th in TES, 4th in the FD but 3rd in TES. Their PCS, to me, have never represented what they deserve. Possibly because they were the national number 2?
Their skills have gone down a little bit in the last few years. I remember their first few years together, where Andrew was glaringly superior to Kaitlyn in his skating. She worked hard to get to his level, but he also has lost it a bit, ESPECIALLY in the twizzles.

 

[savchenkoboss]

They lost a medal by PCS at the 2011 and 2017 worlds, which to me was a bit confusing as I thought their PCS was their real strength both times. They even lost the silver at the 2015 worlds to Chock & Bates IIRC on PCS (TES C&B were higher in the SD, lower in the FD) which is frankly absurd, since C&B should be terribly low compared to other top teams in PCS, since as while they are technically strong, they are boring, their look is super bland, and her basics suck.

 

[angi]

They lost a medal by PCS at the 2011 and 2017 worlds, which to me was a bit confusing as I thought their PCS was their real strength both times. They even lost the silver at the 2015 worlds to Chock & Bates IIRC on PCS (TES C&B were higher in the SD, lower in the FD) which is frankly absurd, since C&B should be terribly low compared to other top teams in PCS, since as while they are technically strong, they are boring, their look is super bland, and her basics suck.

At 2017 they came 6th in both the FD and SD, the only reason they finished 4th and are considered to have "lost a medal" is because those who were strong in the SD had a bad FD and vice versa. In 2011 the same happened - some of the top teams had a bad FD which made W/P score higher in comparison. They didn't excel on their own and were close to getting a medal because they were just so good, they almost got a medal because better teams chocked. But both times the team the ended up with the bronze (Shibutanis both times) were better than them in both segments.
The rest of your assessment is purely subjective, you find C/B boring and bland while others feel the same about W/P so it's not really a factor in this case.
All I'm saying is that I feel like W/P need to step it up big time if they want to go for 2022, at the moment things are not really working for them (despite the bronze in 2018 worlds that they won by a tiny margin) and it's their own doing so fixing it will have to be their effort as well.

 

[starrynight]

These are competitions. Either you place where you do or you don't. I don't think it's particularly fair to say that results don't count because other teams made mistakes. The list of medals we could discount would be a mile long otherwise, starting with the OGM.

No other team aside from W/P have reached the top 5 at worlds for 8 consecutive years since at least the 1980's and that's because maintaining that kind of consistency and staying power is very hard.

I think in the end, the legacy W/P will leave in dance is probably going to be for being the longest competing dance team at senior level in Canadian history and I think that in itself is an impressive achievement.

If Skate Canada wants to have some kind of continuity going over this quad and to keep spots (particularly with mens, pairs and ladies being unknown factors at the moment) they really do need W/P to help them hold up the fort.

 

[beebee]

Until I read the last paragraph of post #34, I thought angi was Carol Lane

 

[Emerald66]

Too bad the Danadians aren't that young. Who knows if they'll continue to Beijing. (Nikolai would be 33) Same for W/P. I love Carolane and Shane and hope they overtake G/P for Canadian #2 this year. I haven't seen Lajoie/Lahga yet but keep hearing good things. Maybe a future rivalry with Cairrera and Ponamarenko?

 

[blue_idealist]

Too bad the Danadians aren't that young. Who knows if they'll continue to Beijing. (Nikolai would be 33) Same for W/P. I love Carolane and Shane and hope they overtake G/P for Canadian #2 this year. I haven't seen Lajoie/Lahga yet but keep hearing good things. Maybe a future rivalry with Cairrera and Ponamarenko?

I think that's why Laurence/Nikolaj switched to Canada, so they could skate in the Olympics in 2022?

 

[savchenkoboss]

The Danadians will definitely try for 2022. That is the only reason they changed countries.

 

[angi]

These are competitions. Either you place where you do or you don't. I don't think it's particularly fair to say that results don't count because other teams made mistakes. The list of medals we could discount would be a mile long otherwise, starting with the OGM.

That's not what I'm saying at all and I also disagree with this. What I was trying to say is that to say W/P only lost both those times because of their PCS is to oversimplify things. While it is possible that they would have won both those times with more generous PCS (it's another debate whether they deserve them or not), the real issue if they want to have a real chance at a podium finish at 2022 is that they need to be able to score better than the top teams when everyone is clean. If their best chances for medals are dependent on other teams making mistakes they will never be considered true contenders and will be treated as such. At worlds 2017 they finished 4th because of others mistakes. Same for worlds 2011. At the Olympics they would have finished 8th if C/B didn't fall on the spin.
And at the Olympics are the best example for them needing to get the levels to have a real shot - in the SD they placed 8th but were 6th in PCS (and very close to being 5th). In the FD they placed 7th but were again 6th in PCS (and again very close to being 5th). In this quad they mostly faltered because of their TES scores over and over again.
So what I'm saying is that a technically superb W/P with clean well executed elements and good programs might have a real shot to podium at 2022 but until they'll up their technical game it's hard to imagine it happening.

Until I read the last paragraph of post #34, I thought angi was Carol Lane

Huh?

 

[SamuraiK]

Too bad the Danadians aren't that young. Who knows if they'll continue to Beijing. (Nikolai would be 33) Same for W/P. I love Carolane and Shane and hope they overtake G/P for Canadian #2 this year. I haven't seen Lajoie/Lahga yet but keep hearing good things. Maybe a future rivalry with Cairrera and Ponamarenko?

They are definetly continuing until Beijing. There's no point in switching countries to a big fed with deep field if that wasn't the plan.

 

[puglover]

I know comparison and competition are the name of the game but I love each of the above named dance teams for different reasons and altogether it makes me a huge fan of ice dance. I love the long lines and beauty of W/P, the fun and interesting programs of G/P who make non-dance fans take notice, the pure freshness of the young teams, and, fortunately for me, no one looks bland or boring. When my kids skated, we were not fans of dance and they learned their dances and took their tests because it was good for them but not enjoyed. Now I just wish I had better technical knowledge - but it doesn't stop me from always tuning in for dance.