Ashley Wagner: Did Rafael Make a Difference?

You have to wonder how Raf's involvement with Nathan has impacted his relationship with Ashley. It's odd to me that he's admitted publicly that 2016 was her peak and he only hopes he can get her back there. I don't know if 'back there' means silver or skating at the same level.

It's as though he's putting all his energy into Nathan and just accepting whatever Ashley does on her own.
 
You have to wonder how Raf's involvement with Nathan has impacted his relationship with Ashley. It's odd to me that he's admitted publicly that 2016 was her peak and he only hopes he can get her back there. I don't know if 'back there' means silver or skating at the same level.

It's as though he's putting all his energy into Nathan and just accepting whatever Ashley does on her own.

Well, you have a potential Olympic medalist, if not a challenger for the gold, versus someone coming out with two repeat programs, no changes to the LP whatsoever, a sketchy technique on her 3+3, and a severe change of edge on the Lutz that 99% of the time gets the complete wrong edge call, not to mention the strong likeliness of < calls throughout her programs. There's no reason she shouldn't be able to hit level 4's on all of her spins in her programs with a little bit of practice and tweaking, and also if she knew the footwork was level 3 two years ago, why not try to change it around or add more content to force the level 4? It's not only more base points, but the GOE scale also goes up to higher increments. They have the protocols within a minute of getting off the ice. I'd think she would want to work on those areas, but she seems content now falling behind many of the other skaters (likely all three Russians, both Japanese, Kostner, Osmond, maybe even Daleman at the very least) unless they fall apart.

And you know why I'm so frustrated and hard on Ashley and sounding like a broken record? Back in 2008, she was what I consider Courtney Hicks to be now. A breath of fresh air and the one who wasn't being pushed necessarily (especially versus Nagasu and Flatt). She was well on her way until Romeo and Juliet in 2014. And since then it's just a big question mark for me. I remember watching her at the Grand Prix events in '07 and thinking she was so exciting. She won the bronze at Bompard in that first season and I never thought the judges were going to go for her after a strong free skate- was thrilled to see they did.
 
I believe you said a few days ago that she hadn't improved since 2013. That is objectively false. I take everything you say about Ash with a ginormous grain of pink Himalayan salt.
 
I believe you said a few days ago that she hadn't improved since 2013. That is objectively false. I take everything you say about Ash with a ginormous grain of pink Himalayan salt.

She's improved but not that much and not in every area. One would think your skating skills would be pretty good after skating for 10+ years but she can't even do high-quality difficult steps and turns, and definitely not combinations of difficult steps and turns.
 
I think Raf's focus has always been always jump technique and fitness, not necessarily basics or steps or spins.

He was able to get her very fit, but he wasn't able to undo her crappy technique and basics which affected all the steps and spins etc.

I wasn't expecting a miracle, but Caro was also a crappy spinner and she found a way to at least always get level 4 spins. I feel Tony's pain and agree that it's the least she could do.

From the Golden Skate interview, it appears returning to MR was not her decision but Raf's, so I don't know whether it was her trying to return to comfort zone - but if this would allow her more time to focus on the elements instead, I am all for it.
 
I wasn't expecting a miracle, but Caro was also a crappy spinner and she found a way to at least always get level 4 spins. I feel Tony's pain and agree that it's the least she could do.

From the Golden Skate interview, it appears returning to MR was not her decision but Raf's, so I don't know whether it was her trying to return to comfort zone - but if this would allow her more time to focus on the elements instead, I am all for it.

Where is the evidence that it has given her time to focus on the elements, though? She is skating reduced content, flutzing still, and missing levels on spins.

@Tony Wheeler Yes, Ashley's pervasive weaknesses are frustrating because they seem, compared to learning two 3-3s in one season, to be minor in nature. I think it's unfortunate that so many interpret that as complacency or worse, though. If you compare a Protocol sheet from 2013 to 2015/2016, you can't tell me that this wasn't a skater who worked her butt off. You just do not see that type of technical growth in the jumps at that age in Ladies skating. We have to remember that skaters have limitations that are not obvious; for many, putting energy into two 3-3s AND counting/holding spin revolutions is just too much. I think that's the case with Ashley and it extends to learning choreography as well it seems. At some point, you have to sacrifice certain improvements in order to master the others. It's not a reasonable ask for Ashley to learn a 3-3, 3-3 sequence, true 3Z, AND work on skating skills for the 1-2 points to be gained in L4 footwork.

I will say I can't quite defend the skater we are seeing this season, though. It's easy to blame burnout; but, despite her result at Worlds, she actually had a pretty decent season last year. She won yet another GP event, did well at Nationals, and then was unlucky to miss the final group after a great SP at Worlds. Had she held onto 6th there, I think she would have been much closer to Daleman overall. And, her WTT skates are proof that she has it in her still.

What was missing last year, IMO, were the inspired programs and performances. But, I foolishly believed that she was buying time so that she could put 110% into creating the perfect Olympic season programs to end her career. Everything about her this year is perplexing and makes me sad because she should be en route to a 4th National title, 2nd Olympic team medal, and top 6 at the Olympics -- all can still happen, but I just see this going the way of 2014 and 2017 with a minor medal at Nationals and bottom-half top 10 in South Korea. The judges were really setting the stage to elevate her to Kostner-like PCS dominance and she has tossed that out the window as I can't believe any judge will not subconsciously consider the age of Moulin Rouge when marking it. I make a lot of excuses for her, but I draw the line with her 1. backing down prior to an Olympic season, 2. falsely proclaiming for the 2nd time that Moulin Rouge has been choreographically modified, and 3. not at least correcting the CONSTANT issue of missing L4 on her final spin because of time constraints.
 
I may be beating a dead horse here, but Wagner has acknowledged long-term cognitive problems brought on by repeated concussions.

I understand the disappointment some have expressed with her programs and her failure to realize all the hopes they placed in her, but I think she should be treated with more compassion.
 
I may be beating a dead horse here, but Wagner has acknowledged long-term cognitive problems brought on by repeated concussions.

I understand the disappointment some have expressed with her programs and her failure to realize all the hopes they placed in her, but I think she should be treated with more compassion.

Yes. This is what I meant when I said we need to remember that we can't see with our eyes certain limitations impacting these skaters. It takes someone brilliant to be able to master all of the sport's elements AND become savvy enough about IJS to know how to adjust programs mid-routine, etc., as we have seen.
 
Where is the evidence that it has given her time to focus on the elements, though? She is skating reduced content, flutzing still, and missing levels on spins.

Well, there is no evidence. But just imagine she has to spend even more time polishing and perfecting another 2 new programs - it will just mean less time and focus for her to train technical stuff.

I honestly believe her flutz was better. The one at Skate Canada was a ! at best, if that (fine I am not a caller). I don't think she is reducing content though - she just didn't land the loop well enough to add the sal after. If anything she is doing the exact same content since 2015.
 
I remember watching her at the Grand Prix events in '07 and thinking she was so exciting. She won the bronze at Bompard in that first season and I never thought the judges were going to go for her after a strong free skate- was thrilled to see they did.
She came to my attention that season as well. I didn't think much about her packaging at the time but there was something about her. A je ne sais quoi.
 
Also, in the Goldenskate interview Ashley said there is new choreography for MR. Hopefully we will see it at SA.

Yes she did say she didn't have enough time to get the new movements right for SC because she has just gotten the new choreography and it was still a work in progress.

Regarding Ashley's concussions, it's kind of scary she's had several. I had one (along with a orbital fracture) and that was bad enough. A year and a half later I developed seizures. There was never any definite medical proof that the two were linked but I've always suspected they came about because of that concussion I sustained.
 
She also lands a 3Lo+1Lo+3S that's better than any we've ever seen from her before.

She always lands good 3-3s in practice or in run-throughs where she skipped the spins. It is no surprise her actual competitive 3loop-3sal is never as nice (tired legs, etc).
 

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