Anti-tourism protests in Europe (Barcelona, etc)

[Private Citizen]

Being able to travel for leisure is a privilege, not a right.

I don't agree with this statement. Spanish, EU, and EEA travellers absolutely have a legal right to travel to (or live in) Barcelona as they wish, enshrined in Spanish and EU law. I'd argue international treaties give others a right to travel as well.

Those of us who are privileged to be able to do so have to be respectful of the places we are visiting.

And locals also need to be respectful of visitors (or perceived visitors), which isn't happening in Barcelona right now.

Mass tourism is ruining some places for both those who live there and our experience as travellers. If locals and local businesses are being priced out of cities, where exactly are the workers to cater to all these tourists going to come from?

Build more homes and hotels. Invest in more transit. Curb legal and illegal immigration to free up housing stock. All of those things might actually work.

Other actions, like limiting or banning cruise ships (which I support - there's no right to cruise to Barcelona enshrined in any law), aren't going to do anything to improve housing prices since cruisers don't sleep in hotels or Airbnbs.

 

[allezfred]

I don't agree with this statement. Spanish, EU, and EEA travellers absolutely have a legal right to travel to (or live in) Barcelona as they wish, enshrined in Spanish and EU law. I'd argue international treaties give others a right to travel as well.

As we saw from the Covid lockdowns and travel restrictions that is not the case.

And locals also need to be respectful of visitors (or perceived visitors), which isn't happening in Barcelona right now.

When you are visiting someone’s home who is the onus more on to be respectful?

Build more homes and hotels. Invest in more transit. Curb legal and illegal immigration to free up housing stock. All of those things might actually work.

The first two things are great. Curbing legal immigration contradicts what you said up above. Asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants are more unlikely to be homeless than residents so I don’t see how that is at all relevant.

 

[Private Citizen]

As we saw from the Covid lockdowns and travel restrictions that is not the case.

Don't get me started there... But these were temporary and time-limited.

When you are visiting someone’s home who is the onus more on to be respectful?

No one is entering someone else's home. I live a block from Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens, and people in my neighbourhood view this as our "backyard." Guess what, it's not. We don't have any right to dictate who goes there. It's not "ours" because we live a block from there. Public spaces are public, and I am against NIMBYism trying to restrict public assets for semi-private use.

Asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants are more unlikely to be homeless than residents so I don’t see how that is at all relevant.

Just like Airbnb guests, they're taking up housing stock and driving up prices. And, unlike Airbnb guests, they're not contributing anything to the economy.

 

[On My Own]

I understand the protests, but think they should be directed at government rather than tourists.

I'm stunned that this is even up for debate on here... not.

 

[ilovesalchows]

I am headed to Barcelona this weekend so I have been following the news. We are meeting up with Spanish friends, so I imagine there will be words if anyone is accosted by protesters. I always assumed the issue was taking entire apartments off the market, but they are cracking down on the room rentals too. I have always supported the renting of ADUs via the platform, I have a lot of friends who supplement their income renting out their basement apartments or garage granny units. None of them would ever rent these spaces as long term units so they aren't taking inventory out of the rental market.

Barcelona Takes on Airbnb (Published 2021)

A new rule, the only one of its kind in a major European city, forbids short-term private-room rentals, adding fuel to the debate over how to control booming prepandemic tourism.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT article goes into this, but doesn't really talk about the number of rentals that would theoretically be put back into the long term market.

Statistical Overview of Barcelona’s Airbnb Market

This article follows an exploratory data analysis of Barcelona’s Airbnb economy. Airbnb is extremely popular in Barcelona and works…

towardsdatascience.com

This was the best metric I could find of total numbers. Obviously I googled it so not sure how reliable.

As for cruise passengers, I am not sure how responsible they would be for short term rentals? I would think many of them are just in town for a night if they are starting or ending their cruise there, and would use a hotel. If they are just day tripping they aren't using rentals at all. Cruise passengers make their biggest impact if they flood a city and don't spend money in local businesses, which has been the case in Venice, Santorini, etc.

I would think the biggest drag to a resident would be having your neighboring apartment hosting a steady stream of partying vacationers, similar to the news that comes out of Florida. Also, I wonder if they will crackdown on the "apartment hotel" concept? It seems like those take just as many potential units out of the market.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Mass tourism is becoming a huge problem in many places.
People from Barcelona have been complaining for years and even the old tourists like some people from my own french family who have been going to Barcelona every summer since the 70s have been complaining about how the city has become one huge holiday resort and have stopped going there. It's even worse in the Balearics. Many places around the Mediterranean Sea are overtouristic.
The overcrowded touristic places need regulations and other sustainable tourism policies, especially for big cruise ships, probably low cost air companies too, airbnbs, opening hours, alcohol sales, etc...
If 10 people shooting water-pistols in a peaceful protest march make the international medias notice, well, that's one hell of an efficient media plan.

Mass tourism is indeed becoming a huge problem.

However, that is just a sign of the general wealth growth of the humanity, and it's a given, and should be addressed within reasonable merits that don't border on the most appalling tribalism. Tourism as a societal practice is an amazing thing that contributes more than anything to education, cultural exchange and soft power. Not to mention that it's also a great source of employment, especially for the lower education groups, economic growth and generally greener industry (yes, planes oh, planes, but I would swap the chemical factories in my city for a million of tourists a year on a heart beat).

There obviously should be ways to manage tourism, as there are ways to manage everything else. What we see in Spain is not it.

Cruises are out of the financial reach of most people who would like to visit Barcelona.

I don't think there are cruises that are that cheap that poor people could ever afford them.

Nope. Visiting specifically Barcelona on a cruise is several times cheaper than going there by any other means of transportation and staying there. While a cruise is not necessarily cheap enough for "poor", it's definitely more affordable for "lower income" than any alternative.

Plus, cruise ships are mostly targeting older people who might not be able to travel on planes or move place to place with such an ease. I took a cruise once in my life, hated it to bits, but it's also true, my parents wouldn't have been able to visit these places otherwise at their age; nor would it be affordable for them, given the circumstances.

All that not to say I don't think cruise ships is one thing that absolutely should be the first step in curbing mass tourism: it a very large group of people who bring very little in the terms of income for the city and naturally flock to the same locations at the same times. For places like Barcelona where cruises are responsible for some 30% of the tourism, it should absolutely be target, and I wonder why they went for AirBnBs instead, despite AirBnBs naturally hosting people who stay for more than a light day, and absolutely spend more money for the local businesses. I am guessing it's worth checking the budget books of the municipality and check how much these companies pay them for the right to dock. And I'd also check how much these cruise companies pay to the specific politicians at the municipality level too...

IMO the topic is not so clear cut as some make it sound here.
Back in the days before AirBNB, if you needed low-budget stays, you'd choose a hostel or low standard hotel/guesthouse (which meanings putting a lot of people in one big building, not taking up much space). Now people who got used to use AirBNB frequently want to be able to spend their vacation living in an appartment as big as a flat, but for budget prices. I mean even in a pricy hotel room, tourists will not take up that much living space.

Ermmmm.... That is probably true, but I don't think it in any way justifies anything. First of all, first and foremost AirBnBs are useful for families that wouldn't be able to stay in conventional hotels as easily. I think that's how AirBnB started. It's a gap in the market that no one bothered to fill, until short term rentals became a thing.

And then, it's absolutely one's right to get more for less as a tourist, and more for less as an apartment owner. As long as economically that is the logical thing to do, people will do it; and moreso, I think limiting property rights is a very problematic route in general, and also a red herring for the existing problems (both housing and mass tourism).

I find it a bit funny that the people screaming the loudest about this are ones who are definitely not poor and very frequent travellers who seem to find their "right to leisure travel" very important as if that's the most important human right or something

Fair
But to be fair too, much like it was mentioned, people who are not poor and have been in the "before it was cool" wave, are now avoiding these over touristic spots, and probably are not the target of Barcelona protests. So basically we're coming back to the goode olde "we don't want to see people who are different from us in our city, on which (for some reason) we have exclusive rights". Not much different than xenophobia against migrants, if I may, with lesser justification in the terms of possible negative social and positive economical effects...

Also LMAO about the idea of these protests being left-wing. Traditionally in Germany those "illegal holiday appartment" problems have been very common in rich rural areas were people are politically very conservative (like Oberstdorf region), which is why there's tons of regulations and restrictions happening, which are all introducted by the right-wing communal politicians.

They absolutely are in Barcelona. This protest was organized by some "communists for Barcelona" or something like that. Palestinian flags are a dead giveaway too. I also believe the demands and the steps that are being taken (as in ban AirBnB) are very left-wing motivated, which makes sense given who the government of Barcelona/Spain are.

Doesn't mean it's true everywhere, of course. Excessive tourism is a problem everywhere, it's more the question how it is addressed.

Being able to travel for leisure is a privilege, not a right. Those of us who are privileged to be able to do so have to be respectful of the places we are visiting. Mass tourism is ruining some places for both those who live there and our experience as travellers. If locals and local businesses are being priced out of cities, where exactly are the workers to cater to all these tourists going to come from?

...I don't.... fully get the notion? Whether it's a privilege or a right, it doesn't matter. Living in a city center is also a privilege, and some would argue, it's a much bigger and exclusive privilege these days than catching a lowcost flight to see some sun for a week. And while I can see that local might be priced out of certain neighborhoods (which... tbh... I don't think is such a huge injustice), the local businesses absolutely shouldn't be. That is one thing that can absolutely be governed, and tourists are just the easy scapegoats.

And where the workers are going to come from is not my problem. Sorry, I lived under communism, I don't advise anyone to try. This is one instance where the market is absolutely going to make its work. If there are no workers, then prices will go up, tourists will be moved out; or accommodations will be organized; or services will suffer and it will move tourists out. Not anyone's right to stand there and say "you have the right to visit here, and you - don't".

As we saw from the Covid lockdowns and travel restrictions that is not the case.

More financial support for tourism and leisure companies which continued to operate during the pandemic | Info Barcelona | Barcelona City Council

Nearly a million euros to mitigate the impact of the crisis, with funds for 284 companies in this sector.

www.barcelona.cat

I really don't think you're making a strong case here.
Covid didn't solve any housing problems, as short term rentals were closed; it didn't drive the prices down; but local businesses survived only thanks to large governmental subsidies, while, for that matter, international chains managed to stand on their own. So that is absolutely not a very strong argument in favor of driving tourists out from the cities.

When you are visiting someone’s home who is the onus more on to be respectful?

How about ...both? How about setting a set of rules and start targeting people based on their behavior rather than their race/ethnicity/passport?

The first two things are great. Curbing legal immigration contradicts what you said up above. Asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants are more unlikely to be homeless than residents so I don’t see how that is at all relevant.

Illegal, legal and any other kind of migrants live in houses, and so do city locals, citizens visiting and tourists. Out of these groups, while I don't have the data, I would guess that tourists bring the largest revenue on average, while illegal migrants the smallest one. But all these groups compete for the absolutely same pool of houses. So if someone absolutely insists on not expanding the pool of housing, it only makes economic and social sense to curb first these who bring the smallest economic and social benefit.

I actually don't know which group that is, nor I even think that is the general way to go, rather than solve the housing problem by building more houses and infrastructure; but assuming this is the route we're taking, I'd assume the first group out wouldn't be the tourists.

 

[Vagabond]

By definition, a cruise involves travel by water, usually to several ports. Visiting Barcelona on a cruise isn't comparable to traveling there by other means and staying there on land.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

By definition, a cruise involves travel by water, usually to several ports. Visiting Barcelona on a cruise isn't comparable to traveling there by other means and staying there on land.

If a spherical I in vacuum wants to visit Barcelona, I can either take a cruise and visit it for a day (or more) while paying for a cruise which also accommodates and feeds me. So if I paid 700$ for a week long cruise(real price), my one day in Barcelona would cost 100$.

My other alternative would be flying to Spain and flying back on the same day (which is unlikely to be feasible) or renting an accommodation, paying for it, as well as restaurants and so on. That is absolutely impossible to do on a budget of 100$. Such plan would cost no less than 300$ for a day (on a day trip). Even if staying in a hostel or sleeping in a different town, which is a serious downgrade from a room on a ship.

Ergo, for visiting Barcelona, cruise is easily the cheapest option.

 

[Private Citizen]

The idiotic thing is that the more Barcelona bans Airbnb, refuses to construct hotels (or new housing), and otherwise does everything they can to make overnight stays unpalatably expensive, the more appealing cruising and other day-trip options will become. You get all of the downsides, and a fraction of the benefits.....

Andrey is right that's it's all woke and political, with Palestinian signs everywhere and signs like "tourists go home; refugees welcome." (Sure, let's welcome people who will take up housing and not contribute anything.) It's all populist, woke nonsense. By the richest region of Spain that wants to break away because it doesn't like to be a net-contributor to the wider Spanish economy.

I love the architecture of Barcelona, but they don't need to tell me to go away. I don't want to spend my money in woke places.

 

[barbk]

When I was young I worked in an urban mall, and this happened all the time. Some would even get angry with us.

There are more well-meaning mistakes in a similar category too - every July I get emails from colleagues in the US who work for the same Canadian-based company I do and know I'm located in Canada, but they still wish me a happy 4th of July, and Happy Thanksgiving in November. Maybe just spreading the love, but then again, I've never wished someone in another country a Happy Canada Day!

You could really confuse them by sending congratulatory messages celebrating the accomplishments of Laura Secord!

 

[Miezekatze]

I love the architecture of Barcelona, but they don't need to tell me to go away. I don't want to spend my money in woke places.

But somehow you manage to sound terribly pouty and snowflaky about not being welcome in a place you wouldn't visit anyway

 

[Miezekatze]

They absolutely are in Barcelona. This protest was organized by some "communists for Barcelona" or something like that. Palestinian flags are a dead giveaway too. I also believe the demands and the steps that are being taken (as in ban AirBnB) are very left-wing motivated, which makes sense given who the government of Barcelona/Spain are.

That's possible, but then the protesters are probably not representative for most Barcelonians and therefor I still don't see why one would take them so "personally". I mean I was shortly irritated when that local girl in Oberstdorf shouted at us, when we were just walking on a street where walking is allowed, but I assume she just had a very bad day or a generally bad life.
And I'd still visit Salzburg, even if I know that many the locals there hate tourists quite passionately (and I overheared some talking about it the last time I vacationed there ). I mean as a tourist you may have the right to travel everywhere, but I don't think you can expect to be liked by everybody.

And I just think it's weird that Barcelona gets so singled out at the moment.

Here's a list on German AirBNB and holiday rental regulations in Germany:

Is Airbnb still legal in Germany?

Many cities in Germany prohibit short-term rentals of holiday homes via portals such as Airbnb. However, Airbnb is not directly prohibited

www.alloggia.de

Articles on other countries bans and regulations against AirBNB:

Airbnb: Berlin court deals blow to holiday home platform – DW – 03/13/2024

Thousands of Berlin holiday apartments may soon be put back on the rental market, thanks to a recent court ruling. And the EU has made it easier for cities to make space affordable.

www.dw.com

Where in the world are Airbnb-style rentals banned or restricted?

Austria will cap the number of nights hosts can rent out their property from summer 2024.

www.euronews.com

Quite honestly, maybe there are loud protests in Barcelona, cause Spain is late to the regulation party.

(I know there's also a lot of protests against mass tourism on Mallorca and I'm sure those are not "leftist", they are cause Germans and Brits HAVE simply been behaving like shit for decades, which is a fact - plus climate change is putting pressure on ressources like water).

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Statistical Overview of Barcelona’s Airbnb Market

This article follows an exploratory data analysis of Barcelona’s Airbnb economy. Airbnb is extremely popular in Barcelona and works…

towardsdatascience.com

This was the best metric I could find of total numbers. Obviously I googled it so not sure how reliable.

Graphs! Statistics!

Providing these are correct (I think they aren't, too lazy to run a search on AirBnB, but it's in line with the numbers BCN municipality mentions), the idea of tackling overtourism and housing problems by banning short term rentals sounds even more dumb.

I would think the biggest drag to a resident would be having your neighboring apartment hosting a steady stream of partying vacationers, similar to the news that comes out of Florida. Also, I wonder if they will crackdown on the "apartment hotel" concept? It seems like those take just as many potential units out of the market.

I think so too, and I don't think it is a general tourism problem or AirBnB problem. Locals are very capable of having loud parties too, and these can be easily done both in short or long term rentals. That's why municipal noise laws exist, and that why police exists.

 

[On My Own]

Providing these are correct

Airbnb Data Source

Airbnb doesn’t share raw data, however some of the data is available using Inside Airbnb which makes Airbnb data accessible by using publicly available information from the Airbnb site. The data is a snapshot of searchable listings from 07 February, 2018.

Blog published on Aug 14, 2018.

So no.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

That's possible, but then the protesters are probably not representative for most Barcelonians and therefor I still don't see why one would take them so "personally". I mean I was shortly irritated when that local girl in Oberstdorf shouted at us, when we were just walking on a street where walking is allowed, but I assume she just had a very bad day or a generally bad life.
And I'd still visit Salzburg, even if I know that many the locals there hate tourists quite passionately (and I overheared some talking about it the last time I vacationed there ). I mean as a tourist you may have the right to travel everywhere, but I don't think you can expect to be liked by everybody.

All these are sensible. I didn't know about Salzburg, it was on my bucket list - wanted to go there for several years now. Alright, it's off the list then.

And I just think it's weird that Barcelona gets so singled out at the moment.

I think it's singled out because they protest against tourism rather than AirBnB, and do it in a rather deplorable form.

And I would wonder what effect AirBnB ban has, and whether it solves anything anywhere. I have hard time believing it does. NYC should be a good lab mouse, didn't they ban it a decade ago or so? I don't think it improved either property prices or tourist accommodation. I wonder why anyone thinks it will work differently anywhere else.

(I know there's also a lot of protests against mass tourism on Mallorca and I'm sure those are not "leftist", they are cause Germans and Brits HAVE simply been behaving like shit for decades, which is a fact - plus climate change is putting pressure on ressources like water).

These are particularly baffling, btw. Yes, mass tourism is a problem. As a tourist I know it very well - some of my favorite locations are off list (including Barcelona) for that very reason. But while Catalonia has some diversified economy, Mallorca and the rest of the islands will literally become deserted poverty ghettos if they lose tourism.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Airbnb Data Source

Airbnb doesn’t share raw data, however some of the data is available using Inside Airbnb which makes Airbnb data accessible by using publicly available information from the Airbnb site. The data is a snapshot of searchable listings from 07 February, 2018.

Blog published on Aug 14, 2018.

So no.

Ah, common. It's easy. I am not insane enough to check the renters, but there's nothing easier than to get an aproximation of airbnb properties and shared/private rooms vs. apartments.

ETA: ok, it's not AS easy as I thought, but still.
Ciudad Vieja: Raval/Rambla around 900 listings; ~590 are apartments, ~200 are rooms. I guess some are listed as neither?
Monjuic: 242 listings; ~200 apartments, 37 are rooms
Exiample: Strangely, it has less listings than Cuidad Vieja. Around 700 listings, ~600 apartments, 100 are rooms.
Sagrada Familia area, also strangely - because it never was as popular, has nearly the same stats as Exiample.
North to Sagrada Familia there's almost nothing, but L'Hospitalet de Llobregat has 506 listings with roughly equal number of apartments and rooms.

This is an approximation, of course, I'm not insane.
But I think the proportions should give the idea of where the short time rentals are, how many of them are independent units (from experience, I don't think all the apartments are actual apartments) vs. how many rooms. And while I found just roughly 4,000 listings, I don't have a reason not to believe Barcelona municipality, that the actual number of units is around 10,000.
For a city of 2 millions... ok.

 

[barbk]

You could really confuse them by sending congratulatory messages celebrating the accomplishments of Laura Secord!

There is a chocolate brand named after her in Canada. In the US, the brand was called Fanny Farmer. My grandmother was a manager at one of their stores in Canada, and when she moved to the US, it was to take over the Fanny Farmer shop in Manhattan. Grandma, a Canadian who never dropped the "eh?", thought the name change was a pretty funny joke on Americans.

 

[Miezekatze]

All these are sensible. I didn't know about Salzburg, it was on my bucket list - wanted to go there for several years now. Alright, it's off the list then.

I'm sure you can still go First of all, Austrians are known to be generally grumpy and secondly, I'm sure they dislike German tourists much more than others, cause they're most dependent on us

And I would wonder what effect AirBnB ban has, and whether it solves anything anywhere. I have hard time believing it does. NYC should be a good lab mouse, didn't they ban it a decade ago or so? I don't think it improved either property prices or tourist accommodation. I wonder why anyone thinks it will work differently anywhere else.

I think the ruling of the European court of justice that makes it easier to regular or ban AirBNB rentals is relatively new, so I expect that it will be easier to say if and what the regulations achieve in a couple of years. But I think generally, independently of AirBNB regulating or not allowing touristic short time rental is a rather common measure in Germany (among others) and I doubt all those small and medium sized cities would have done it if it achieves absolutely nothing.

These are particularly baffling, btw. Yes, mass tourism is a problem. As a tourist I know it very well - some of my favorite locations are off list (including Barcelona) for that very reason. But while Catalonia has some diversified economy, Mallorca and the rest of the islands will literally become deserted poverty ghettos if they lose tourism.

I think Mallorca mostly wants to get rid of of the extreme alcohol-centric party tourism and they'd like to have more "normal" tourists . But I also think it's hard to achieve. Other tourists are put of by the current type of people who travel there (even if you want to take a nice hiking vacation in the north of Mallorca for example, you might still end up on the same flights as the party groups). One time we flew to Italy, we just were at a gate next to the gate of a flight to Mallorca and there was this big drunken group of young men, THAT was already I don't trust they don't let drunk people board the flight at all. The reports put me off from ever visiting Mallorca, even though the north IS supposed to be really beautiful and quiet (and certainly also parts of the South).
And the rich people choose Ibiza, because of Mallorcas reputation, it's just a vicious cycle that seems impossible to break.
A typical type of German Mallorca trip is that for example a group of 3 or 4 or even more young or older men will fly there on a Tuesday afternoon, then they'll drink and party at Ballermann till Wednesday morning and then they fly back, so the whole trip is like 24 hours or less (obviously this sort of tourism at least doesn't cause housing shortage ). I think that's just pretty perverted. Apart from the behavior of those groups, I also think often absolutely none of the money they spend will go to any (normal) local people from Mallorca or even Spain, because most of those party places like the infamous "Bierkönig" or Megapark are owned by foreigners and/or criminal corporations. There's constant scandals around those people.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

But I think generally, independently of AirBNB regulating or not allowing touristic short time rental is a rather common measure in Germany (among others) and I doubt all those small and medium sized cities would have done it if it achieves absolutely nothing.

Don't underestimate the power of populism. I don't know whether it really achieves something or not - it should be easy to check. But I absolutely wouldn't be surprised at all if Airbnbs are targeted because it's easy and obvious rather than because it's useful.

I think Mallorca mostly wants to get rid of of the extreme alcohol-centric party tourism and they'd like to have more "normal" tourists . But I also think it's hard to achieve. Other tourists are put of by the current type of people who travel there (even if you want to take a nice hiking vacation in the north of Mallorca for example, you might still end up on the same flights as the party groups). One time we flew to Italy, we just were at a gate next to the gate of a flight to Mallorca and there was this big drunken group of young men, THAT was already I don't trust they don't let drunk people board the flight at all. The reports put me off from ever visiting Mallorca, even though the north IS supposed to be really beautiful and quiet (and certainly also parts of the South).
And the rich people choose Ibiza, because of Mallorcas reputation, it's just a vicious cycle that seems impossible to break.
A typical type of German Mallorca trip is that for example a group of 3 or 4 or even more young or older men will fly there on a Tuesday afternoon, then they'll drink and party at Ballermann till Wednesday morning and then they fly back, so the whole trip is like 24 hours or less (obviously this sort of tourism at least doesn't cause housing shortage ). I think that's just pretty perverted. Apart from the behavior of those groups, I also think often absolutely none of the money they spend will go to any (normal) local people from Mallorca or even Spain, because most of those party places like the infamous "Bierkönig" or Megapark are owned by foreigners and/or criminal corporations. There's constant scandals around those people.

Now, that is absolutely the easiest to fight. Regulate the noise levels, alcohol sells and hours of operation for all these clubs and bars. Without creating bad rep and potentially losing some 50% of your economy. I don't see how harassing tourists is going to solve any of the issues you mentioned.

 

[Miezekatze]

Don't underestimate the power of populism. I don't know whether it really achieves something or not - it should be easy to check. But I absolutely wouldn't be surprised at all if Airbnbs are targeted because it's easy and obvious rather than because it's useful.

I don't think so, I think it's cause countries want to put their local interests over the economic interest of one US based company.

I for example was really happy with my Huawei Smartphones, which were IMO the best Android smartphones available here in Germany and in a capitalist society surely companies from whichever countries should be free to sell their hardware in combination with the best operating system anywhere in the world if the customer wants it. In reality of course now in Germany I don't have the option of getting a Huawei smartphone with an Android operating system, because the US wanted to protect their economic interests with sanctions, even impacting countries where it's IMO really not their business (and for Germans it's not more attractive to get spied on only by US companies instead of by Chinese AND US companies ).

Why do you think Uber can't operate with their original business model in Germany: because it's been outlawed and heavily regulated to protect local business and laws.

Countries always try to protect their own interests and that's not communism, it's the opposite, Trump would probably call it "America First".

Now, that is absolutely the easiest to fight. Regulate the noise levels, alcohol sells and hours of operation for all these clubs and bars.

They didn't even get those areas under control during Covid, when they thought they'd make it work easily.
I think instead things got more extreme after the pandemic was over. Which might be the main reason for the escalation now.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Ok, I went through some 20 first articles when googling "NYC Aribnb ban effects" (not posting everything here, one can look oneself)

NYC's Airbnb Ban Looked Like Trouble for the Travel Stock. Instead, It's Proving Its Market Power | The Motley Fool

New York banned Airbnbs, but there's been a surprising upside for the company.

www.fool.com

6 Months After New York Banned Airbnb, New Jersey Is Doing Great

New York placed strict restrictions on short-term rentals last year. Rents still remain high, and some former hosts are frustrated. Meanwhile, Airbnb rentals in New Jersey are booming.

www.wired.com

New York City is enforcing a 'de facto ban' on Airbnb. Will travelers be better off without it?

Airbnb was effectively banned in New York City this fall. After years of frustrating fees and rules, travelers may not even miss it.

www.businessinsider.com

Early Impacts of New York City's 'De Facto Ban' on Airbnbs

New York City is enforcing a host registration law to eliminate illegal short-term rentals.

www.investopedia.com

‘Must love dogs and rude roommates’: the scramble to get around New York’s Airbnb crackdown

Strict rules have led to a wild west of rentals, with visitors choosing between huge hotel bills or word-of-mouth deals

www.theguardian.com

New York’s Airbnb Ban Is Descending Into Pure Chaos

People are listing short-term rentals on social media and lesser-known platforms, bolstering a rental black market in New York City.

www.wired.com

https://creditnews.com/economy/new-york-citys-airbnb-ban-has-had-disastrous-consequences/

NYC shuttered 80% of its Airbnbs in an attempt to make housing more affordable. All that's done so far is make hotels more expensive.

There were more than 22,000 short-term rentals listed in NYC last August. The number of legal listings has dropped precipitously.

www.businessinsider.com

All of them are negative. There's one that celebrates the ban, but also notes that it is unlikely to improve housing situation.
To summarize: the hotel prices are up by twice the rate of inflation; a black market appeared (with all that comes out of it, such as lack of protection etc from a company); short terms rentals moved to suburbs, such as New Jersey. Notably, I didn't find any statistics saying there's less visitors in NYC now, but some percentage that used to stay in the city and use the services of city's business now only makes daily visits, bringing economic benefits to other cities instead.

Most importantly, there's very little information of how it affected the rentals in the city; seemingly: it didn't. Only one article brings numbers:

According to real estate listing website Zumper, the average rent in New York City was $4,369 in June, up 4% from the previous year, based on 10,711 listings. Only 20% of the listings were priced at $3,000 or less.

By comparison, 35% were in the $3,001 to $4,500 price range, 23% were between $4,501 and $6,000, and 23% were over $6,001.

The average rent for 2-bedroom and 3-bedroom units has increased by 12% over the past year.

IDK, maybe AirBnBs weren't the answer all along. Maybe some other things are to blame, such as:

Like other parts of the country, New York City has failed to keep up with local housing demand. According to the City and State publication, New York created 1.2 million jobs in the last decade but has only built 400,000 housing units over the same period.

So, yeah. Populism, attempts to find easy solutions to difficult problems and a dash of xenophobia.

That said, @Miezekatze might be right, and while for a city of a scale of NYC it was always going to be a failure, maybe it's different for small/medium sized towns. I don't know, I think it might be, but also, probably not for all. If short term rentals are 90% of the city, it definitely must have an effect, but if it's just a small percent, probably not so much. And even for the 90% it's not a given. If Venice was to ban all the short term rentals, I can't predict with a certainty what will happen, but under no circumstances I'd expect it to become affordable for all these purple haired students of gender studies who are vandalizing Barcelona right now...

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I don't think so, I think it's cause countries want to put their local interests over the economic interest of one US based company.

Emmm... But I don't see how banning short term rentals is promoting their local interests, that's the issue. I mean, if it created an alternative German based platform for short term rentals in Germany and taxed it - yes, but as of now, with very few exceptions, the actual number of tourists who use these rentals is always negligible compared to the demand for housing. It is just not the right place to solve anything, and lack of accommodation for tourists, or eyewatering prices of hotels are more likely to harm the local and federal economy, country's reputation and everything consequential.

I think even politically it's going to be a mess, because people will get pissed when despite the ban nothing changes. Only they can't blame the annoying foreigners who visit this time, and who knows who's going to be the next scapegoat.

What I see in most places, is not a ban but rather regulation - Paris, Amsterdam, parts of Germany and Italy, etc. If I understand correctly, the general idea is "you can rent your place for a specific period of time, but if you do it more, you become a touristic accommodation with all that comes out of it, such as permits and taxes", which, while also is going to reduce the supply and raise prices, makes actual sense and brings revenue to the local government/state. Spain OTOH basically just trying to shoot itself in the foot.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Why do you think Uber can't operate with their original business model in Germany: because it's been outlawed and heavily regulated to protect local business and laws.

Countries always try to protect their own interests and that's not communism, it's the opposite, Trump would probably call it "America First".

More from me

I don't think Uber's model is comparable to AirBnB's model in the terms of its effect and distance from the concensus, tbh. It's legal to rent an apartment for a period of X, so reducing X to a couple of days is not far fetched. It's not legal to drive people around without license for money. So there's a certain leap of faith here. Plus, even though there are actual problems with Uber (such as insurance and security), it is not in Israel, for example, for a very simple reason: taxi lobby. And consequentially, yeah, Uber is not polluting our streets with its presence, but in the country where 20% of the time there's no public transportation, the public either has to own a car (parking and traffic, yes), sell a kidney to pay for a taxi or sit home. All three of these have very negative consequences for the country in question, btw.

And I don't use the word "communism" as a slur, but as an actual social-economic model (and I have the right to do so, having actually lived under it). One of the pillars of communism is centralization and denial of private property rights. It's way too late now to have a full blown debate of whether banning short time rentals is that, but it's definitely not very far removed.

 

[Miezekatze]

Emmm... But I don't see how banning short term rentals is promoting their local interests, that's the issue. I mean, if it created an alternative German based platform for short term rentals in Germany and taxed it - yes, but as of now, with very few exceptions, the actual number of tourists who use these rentals is always negligible compared to the demand for housing. It is just not the right place to solve anything, and lack of accommodation for tourists, or eyewatering prices of hotels are more likely to harm the local and federal economy, country's reputation and everything consequential.

I think even politically it's going to be a mess, because people will get pissed when despite the ban nothing changes. Only they can't blame the annoying foreigners who visit this time, and who knows who's going to be the next scapegoat.

What I see in most places, is not a ban but rather regulation - Paris, Amsterdam, parts of Germany and Italy, etc. If I understand correctly, the general idea is "you can rent your place for a specific period of time, but if you do it more, you become a touristic accommodation with all that comes out of it, such as permits and taxes", which, while it is also going to reduce the supply and raise prices, makes actual sense and brings revenue to the local government/state. Spain OTOH basically just trying to shoot itself in the foot.

I'm not exactly sure WHAT they are currently trying to do? The articles about the protests only seem to mention some proposals.
And I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just saying there probably ARE legitimate problems.

But personally I think the whole tourism system in Spain is probably going to implode one day, because it's never good if it's one of the only things that brings in money and it's still combined with a lot of (youth) unemployment, extreme weather from climate change, water shortages (which are quite unfortunate when the other thing a country makes money is articially watered mass production of vegetables), ...all those things can't just be ignored and I don't think it makes sense to act as if we're living in the 1960 or 1970s when people are discovering tourism and the benefits of it. I'd guess protesters are just unhappy with the overall situation in the country, not with tourists, which of course does mean the protests in their current form are dumb (but if the protests there are driven by pro-palestinian/Fridays-For-Future groups with an agenda, I also doubt the local government doesn't realize that, since I don't assume they are naive, more likely in that case they'll do some half-hearted symbol politics which aren't even meant to change anything, until the protesters have found a new less annoying agenda, which is at least what German politicians would do ).

I just did some research on Oberstdorf btw, the town has 9.970 inhabitants. In 2023 there were 486.668 tourists in Oberstdorf doing 2,69 million overnight-stays in 2023.

Now this obviously sounds like a much more crazy ratio of inhabitants to tourists, but I guess this works so far, because housing has always been heavily regulated (and tourism stays are extremely heavily taxed) and b) cause people there are prosperous. Ressources so far are available (no water shortages), the state is also otherwise rich, it doesn't have to rely only on tourism alone. I doubt people in Spain feel as if they are prosperous due to tourism. .

Still they also occasionally have ideas to make things harder for the "wrong kind" of tourism (like they also always try to find ideas to keep away day tourists, like making parking prices even more expensive, even if parking your car there for 3 hours already costs more than a day ticket to Venice )

And many such places in the Alps will have to find new ways to "survive" when skiing is less and less possible. If they act as if there's no problem, they'll be in similar trouble in 20 or 30 years. I'd guess Spain ignored all problems for far too long and should have started solving them 30 years ago.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I'm not exactly sure WHAT they are currently trying to do? The articles about the protests only seem to mention some proposals.
And I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just saying there probably ARE legitimate problems.

But personally I think the whole tourism system in Spain is probably going to implode one day, because it's never good if it's one of the only things that brings in money and it's still combined with a lot of (youth) unemployment, extreme weather from climate change, water shortages (which are quite unfortunate when the other thing a country makes money is articially watered mass production of vegetables), ...all those things can't just be ignored and I don't think it makes sense to act as if we're living in the 1960 or 1970s when people are discovering tourism and the benefits of it. I'd guess protesters are just unhappy with the overall situation in the country, not with tourists, which of course does mean the protests in their current form are dumb (but if the protests there are driven by pro-palestinian/Fridays-For-Future groups with an agenda, I also doubt the local government doesn't realize that, since I don't assume they are naive, more likely in that case they'll do some half-hearted symbol politics which aren't even meant to change anything, until the protesters have found a new less annoying agenda, which is at least what German politicians would do ).

I just did some research on Oberstdorf btw, the town has 9.970 inhabitants. In 2023 there were 486.668 tourists in Oberstdorf doing 2,69 million overnight-stays in 2023.

Now this obviously sounds like a much more crazy ratio of inhabitants to tourists, but I guess this works so far, because housing has always been heavily regulated (and tourism stays are extremely heavily taxed) and b) cause people there are prosperous. Ressources so far are available (no water shortages), the state is also otherwise rich, it doesn't have to rely only on tourism alone. I doubt people in Spain feel as if they are prosperous due to tourism. .

Still they also occasionally have ideas to make things harder for the "wrong kind" of tourism (like they also always try to find ideas to keep away day tourists, like making parking prices even more expensive, even if parking your car there for 3 hours already costs more than a day ticket to Venice )

And many such places in the Alps will have to find new ways to "survive" when skiing is less and less possible. If they act as if there's no problem, they'll be in similar trouble in 20 or 30 years. I'd guess Spain ignored all problems for far too long and should have started solving them 30 years ago.

I believe they are trying to ban short time rentals. At least that's what the municipal government of Barcelona announced. I don't know if they are actually going to do it, and if so - how and to what extent, but yeah. I think Madrid, Valencia and Seville also have some draconian plans in mind, but they rather aim to limit the number of AirBnBs, which, I mean, good luck with that using this method, but is not as extreme anyway. Have no idea what's up on the islands, I'm not a drunk Brit to care

But I think you're right in general. Mass tourism is probably just a cherry on top with countless other problems, and quite possibly a mismanaged for decades cherry too. Still, these protests are ugly. And I have to disagree about the "pro-palestinian/Fridays-For-Future groups" part - as the local and federal governments of Spain are the same groups, with extreme left being in the current government. So these are their voters, and this is their ideology, so they absolutely are going to put fire down with gasoline and then blame everyone else for the disastrous results.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Ok, one more post, I promise it's the last one for now

Banning Airbnb might increase the pool of available apartments but it won't improve the affordability in places like NYC, Barcelona and any other major metropolitan area. Maybe it might for smaller cities, but doubt that too, and I don't think the general problem is as bad there in general. Because the demand for accommodation at the prime locations in these cities is way beyond any kind of supply, and even if Airbnbs go back to the market, they will go for the price of other such apartments that are already on the market, i.e. unaffordable for people who are now protesting. Because even if these short term rentals go to the market, they still don't have to compete among themselves: the demand is much higher than any kind of supply in the city center that might suddenly appear.

And I have an interesting experiment.

Tel Aviv normally has a very large pool of AirBnBs, and there's a huge shortage of rentals, and rental prices comparable to any major city. We had "occupy whatever" back in 2003, way before it was cool, and for the same reasons. As one might guess, there are no huge droves of tourists right now, so the demand side of the equation is drastically reduced. To the point it's actually now cheaper to rent a short term accommodation than long term accommodation. But the long term is as unaffordable as ever, with insane levels of demands of the landlords and appalling quality of accommodation.

My point is... If you want to improve affordability, putting 10,000 apartments to the market in a city of 2 millions is not going to do anything. It is going to demolish the supply for short term, but to see any kind of effect on long term you have to have a decrease of demand or increase or supply of a major war proportion.

(Unrelated to other problems of mass tourism)

 

[barbk]

At least in NYC, a bigger problem than AirBnB is the number of housing units completely off the market. All over Manhattan, you can find buildings with retail or offices on the first floor and unoccupied apartments above. That is the owner's privilege, of course, but tax policy ought to discourage (or at least, not encourage) that strategy. Similarly, homeowners with second (and third and fourth and fifth) homes ought not to get breaks on property taxes given to primary homeowners.

In most of the US, we're way overbuilding expensive multi-family housing and significantly underbuilding moderate-income housing. When we sold our house the first weekend, it was on the market (a lot sooner than we expected). We looked at apartments to rent until we decided where we wanted to buy. We found several dozen newer complexes, all of which were set up with ritzy features appealing to highly paid tech workers. Almost none were in any way suitable for a family. We weren't price-sensitive, but the units didn't fit us. Most seem oriented to two younger folks who wanted to share an apartment with the equivalent of two master bedrooms/bathrooms.

 

[On My Own]

Ah, common. It's easy. I am not insane enough to check the renters, but there's nothing easier than to get an aproximation of airbnb properties and shared/private rooms vs. apartments.

ETA: ok, it's not AS easy as I thought, but still.
Ciudad Vieja: Raval/Rambla around 900 listings; ~590 are apartments, ~200 are rooms. I guess some are listed as neither?
Monjuic: 242 listings; ~200 apartments, 37 are rooms
Exiample: Strangely, it has less listings than Cuidad Vieja. Around 700 listings, ~600 apartments, 100 are rooms.
Sagrada Familia area, also strangely - because it never was as popular, has nearly the same stats as Exiample.
North to Sagrada Familia there's almost nothing, but L'Hospitalet de Llobregat has 506 listings with roughly equal number of apartments and rooms.

This is an approximation, of course, I'm not insane.
But I think the proportions should give the idea of where the short time rentals are, how many of them are independent units (from experience, I don't think all the apartments are actual apartments) vs. how many rooms. And while I found just roughly 4,000 listings, I don't have a reason not to believe Barcelona municipality, that the actual number of units is around 10,000.
For a city of 2 millions... ok.

"towardsdatascience" is mostly a tutorial website for data "science"/"AI"/some undergrad statistics or computer science students. Or middle aged people looking for a change in careers, I guess.

The data, even if complete (which I doubt it is), is outdated, as is the blog. It's not anything rigorous.

 

[Private Citizen]

But somehow you manage to sound terribly pouty and snowflaky about not being welcome in a place you wouldn't visit anyway

I do love the city and think it's objectively beautiful, even if I disagree with its politics. I would encourage people to visit, were it not for the assault (sometimes literally) on tourism and tourists.

At least in NYC, a bigger problem than AirBnB is the number of housing units completely off the market. All over Manhattan, you can find buildings with retail or offices on the first floor and unoccupied apartments above. That is the owner's privilege, of course, but tax policy ought to discourage (or at least, not encourage) that strategy. Similarly, homeowners with second (and third and fourth and fifth) homes ought not to get breaks on property taxes given to primary homeowners.

All of that is already the case in NYC and has been for awhile. The city is unfortunately addicted to the transfer taxes, mansion taxes, and ongoing property taxes from luxury second homes (not to mention all of the kickbacks, etc. from developers). Between transfer taxes and "mansion" taxes (which realistically apply to studio apartments in Manhattan), the city can rake in $1m upfront on a $10m-$15m sale with ongoing taxes into the hundreds of thousands per year.

If politicians had the courage to ban second home ownership outright and turn off this teat of tax money, I'd have a lot more respect for them. It would also do a lot more to lower prices and open up availability -- e.g., six family apartments in place of one luxury condo that sits empty for 355 days of the year. Instead, they're going after the middle class with one or two investment properties while allowing the wealthy to do whatever they want.

I have far more respect for, say, Switzerland, or Denmark, or parts of Alto Adige / Sudtirol region of Italy, that effectively ban foreign property ownership and heavily restrict second home ownership. Everyone is on equal footing, and there's not "rules for thee but not for me." While property in those places isn't cheap, it's far less expensive than in comparable places without foreign ownership restrictions.

In most of the US, we're way overbuilding expensive multi-family housing and significantly underbuilding moderate-income housing.

Yup, and not just the US. In the UK, we're not building nearly enough, and what we are building is also ugly and expensive multi-family housing. The EU, whose rules we still have by our own fault, has been a god-send to NIMBYs, who can and have stalled new developments for 20 years or more over minerals, insects, or pretty much anything else. The UK planning process is also a bureaucratic nightmare.

We need a politician who will chant, Sarah Palin-style, "BUILD, BABY, BUILD!" and literally steamroll any people or organizations that are getting in the way. I'd be fine with regulation that requires homebuilders to build X number of units per year in order to keep their licenses. 75% of those units must be affordable, using mortgage lender criteria, to people earning 1.25 times the median income within a 60-mile radius. You can fiddle with the criteria; it's not exact. I'm very confident THAT would do something to make housing more affordable; banning Airbnb won't.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I have far more respect for, say, Switzerland, or Denmark, or parts of Alto Adige / Sudtirol region of Italy, that effectively ban foreign property ownership and heavily restrict second home ownership. Everyone is on equal footing, and there's not "rules for thee but not for me." While property in those places isn't cheap, it's far less expensive than in comparable places without foreign ownership restrictions.

Yup, and not just the US. In the UK, we're not building nearly enough, and what we are building is also ugly and expensive multi-family housing. The EU, whose rules we still have by our own fault, has been a god-send to NIMBYs, who can and have stalled new developments for 20 years or more over minerals, insects, or pretty much anything else. The UK planning process is also a bureaucratic nightmare.

We need a politician who will chant, Sarah Palin-style, "BUILD, BABY, BUILD!" and literally steamroll any people or organizations that are getting in the way. I'd be fine with regulation that requires homebuilders to build X number of units per year in order to keep their licenses. 75% of those units must be affordable, using mortgage lender criteria, to people earning 1.25 times the median income within a 60-mile radius. You can fiddle with the criteria; it's not exact. I'm very confident THAT would do something to make housing more affordable; banning Airbnb won't.

This all is OT, but it's quite fun

I think we were one of the frontrunners in this race, and we tried everything. Of course, every country and region has its own characteristics, but generally, I think what happens in one place is a good indication of what is going to happen in another.

So anyway, long story short - nothing helped. Since 2003 Tel Aviv introduced heavy taxation on empty properties, two airports were destroyed to open space for development in primary locations, military bases are being moved out, bureaucratic processes were cut, lottery for discounts on apartments were introduced, definitions of how many apartments of each kind can be built in a project, taxation of second property and up, projects for renewal of older neighborhoods, subsidized mortgages...

One just must accept a simple fact of life: there's a limited amount of resources, and as long as the demand for it remains high, nothing you do will satisfy it. Each of the measures brought some unexpected effects, mostly negative ones (the civil aviation in the country is now non existent, the quality of new buildings is at times appalling, there were cases when buildings collapsed, increased density brought failures of infrastructure and transport collapse, increased prices for non-first apartments increased the rent, apartments are registered on different family members and fake companies, bans on additional apartments eliminated the market for rentals, etc etc etc). It's debatable whether the situation would have been even worse otherwise, but nothing really lowered the prices for either rents or buys, and judging by the dynamics, it didn't really slow them either. Currently for an average Israeli family to buy an average apartment in Tel Aviv both partners have to work for 25 years without spending a single shekel on anything else. Under such circumstances, absolutely nothing will make Tel Aviv affordable for people who aren't already wealthy property owners. Vacating Airbnbs will just allow the same 1% buy yet another apartment they will either use in some way or not. I would guess every large metropolitan area, definitely alpha cities such as NYC and BCN, sees exactly the same situation.

What actually happened is the following: the prices in TLV have stabilized on some insane level, and from there the demand started spreading to other cities, gradually raising the prices first in the nearest suburbs and then further and further. Tel Aviv metropolitan area has already achieved the level of unaffordability for practically everybody, and the trend moved to other metropolitan areas. Improved infrastructure transferred beta cities into remote suburbs of Tel Aviv, the prices are going up faster in the more remote cities with direct trains to Tel Aviv, and that's about it. For these who can afford it, apartments are the best investment, and it only accelerates the process as there are no other easy investment options for an average Joe. These who don't have the wealth but for some reason insist of owning an apartment, basically enslave themselves to banks for 30 years, and in most likelihood will never manage to own it in their lifetime, en route paying twice the price on interest.

Anyway, as of now, the only acceptable solution I see is development of beta cities. It is unlikely to lower the prices in the alpha cities, but it might at least give good quality of life in other places. That's it. Anything else is just going to cause some minor benefits for few and huge problems for all.