1989 Euros AA, Was it a Win or Legitimate Tie? Boginskaya vs Silivas?

1989 Euros AA, Was it a Win or Legitimate Tie?


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bardtoob

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1989 Euros AA, Was it a Win or Legitimate Tie? Boginskaya vs Silivas?


In the real world, Boginskaya and Silivas were exactly tied going into the final rotation, which was the floor exercise. Silivas scored a 9.987 and Boginskaya scored a 10.00.
 

barbk

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Boginskaya had flexibility moves that showed a sense of choreography that is mostly missing even today, but her landings didn't seem as spot-on as Silivas'. I was impressed by Silivas' back-to-back tumbling pass.

Boginskaya's is the one I'd enjoy re-watching, so I'm going with that.
 

Weve3

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I agree that Silivas sticks those landings like nobody’s business and both were terrific, but for me, it was actually Boginskaya’s beam routine that put her over the top even though she scored a 10.00 on floor.
 

floskate

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Boguinskaya for me. And I agree it's the beam that puts her ahead but I love her Carmen too. However, what is with Cathy Rigby insisting on calling Silivas 'Danielle' all the way through????
 

gk_891

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I much prefer Boginskaya's floor routine. All of those unusual shapes and images she creates with her body shows incredible body rhythm and control. And I love how she threw much bigger difficulty than usual. As amazing as Daniela was, I thought she had outgrown that floor routine. It looked kind of childish compared to Svetlana's.

I once read that the Romanians were very upset with how Svetlana was scored on beam because she left out a jump with a half turn. Even if that's true, I thought Daniela was overscored on vault. True, she stuck her vault in the AA but she doesn't have the height and amplitude on her vaults that some of the others had.
 

Weve3

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Boguinskaya for me. And I agree it's the beam that puts her ahead but I love her Carmen too. However, what is with Cathy Rigby insisting on calling Silivas 'Danielle' all the way through????
Yup... you would think they would make an effort to get it right. Kind of like when Tracy Wilson kept calling Oksana, OksANNA. Noooo.... :wall:
 

bardtoob

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Svetlana's build and composure always reminds me of Ludmilla.
 
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VGThuy

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Regarding the FX, Silivas was missing that effervescence and verve that she had with that routine at the 1988 Olympics with all those back bends, more choreo, and whatnot. She also made it look like she was having the time of her life in Seoul. Not so much here, and she did outgrow it. She needed a new routine, but I remember thinking the one she did at 1989 Worlds was sort of boring.

Boginskaya's FX was great and she performed it nearly as well here as she did at the 1988 Olympics, but I also preferred it at the 1988 Olympics. I'm glad she got that new one for Worlds as it is one of my fave FXs.
 

matti

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Boginskaya just poses and lacks musicality. Silivas is vastly the greater dancer and tumbler. Agree that Daniela needed a new programme, though
 

Hedwig

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Boginskaya was a gymnast I somehow never "got". I started watching in 1991 and remember always thinking that maybe I MISSED when she was great and that it was only reputation in 1991 und 1992 - her wide legs in double laybacks horrified me and she always seemed heavy in her movements to me.
Rewatching then some of her earlier years showed me that I just never saw what others see in her. :shuffle:
When I compare her to the great Soviet Gymnasts like Davydova (probably my fave) Schaposchnikova, Illinin, Filatova...I really don't understand the appeal she has to so many.

And I agree that she has no musicality. I found her "sexy" floor routine from 1996 even very embarassing...

I always found that very interesting.
 

VGThuy

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I will say she had command and presence. Not to mention an unusual body for gymnastics that made her stand out. It’s funny that you bring up her “sexy” FX from 1996. I’m so many ways, it was bad, but for some reason, I can’t help but like it. Those men watching in the stands at Atlanta seemed enthralled with her.


She’s a great gymnast to watch in interviews now as she’s very articulate and has truly insightful things to say.
 

rhapsody

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Bogi's choreography after 1989 reminds me of Khorkina and Witt (amateur years). Pretty awful choreography with a well-timed wrist flick but enormous presence. You can't help but look at her.

I will also say that her 1996 floor was awesome. I know the hip wiggle is kind cringey but it's just so ballsy that a woman in gymnastics would do that. Very Katarina Witt-esque.
 

Hedwig

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I found the crawling on the floor the most ewwwww part of the routine. And I always thought she looked uncomfortable doing it - like being forced to do it since she was called sexy since the age of 15 (!) and that was just her role.

I agree that she is a great spokeswoman now but I still never warmed up to her gymnastics... I hear many people say that they couldn't help but watch her, like you. This is so strange - I think I have NO other gymnast in the history of gymnastics I disagree so completely with the masses as in Boginskaya. Normally I have a very plebebian taste and like who the masses like :lol:
 

bardtoob

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:ds1:

I actually prefer Svetlana's 1989-1992 Compulsory FX to all others. Svetlana's long lines give an entirely different look to the routine than those seen performed by the pixies like Miller and Gutsu and every gesture looks very finished..
 
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VGThuy

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Bogi's choreography after 1989 reminds me of Khorkina and Witt (amateur years). Pretty awful choreography with a well-timed wrist flick but enormous presence. You can't help but look at her.

I will also say that her 1996 floor was awesome. I know the hip wiggle is kind cringey but it's just so ballsy that a woman in gymnastics would do that. Very Katarina Witt-esque.
So agree. I love that the starting order made it so Boginskaya was the only gymnast performing in that packed arena and all eyes were on her. Everyone was staring, including judges from the other apparatuses and the mostly male coaches from the other teams/gymnasts. I found that very fitting for a gymnast like her.
 

Erin

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This is so strange - I think I have NO other gymnast in the history of gymnastics I disagree so completely with the masses as in Boginskaya. Normally I have a very plebebian taste and like who the masses like :lol:
Well, I might have you beat, as I can't stand Khorkina's gymnastics :p

I was a big Kim Zmeskal fan in 1992, so I didn't like Bogi at the time either. She grew on me in her 1996 comeback and I can appreciate a lot of things about her now, but I would never consider her an all-time fave.
 

VGThuy

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Well, I might have you beat, as I can't stand Khorkina's gymnastics :p

I was a big Kim Zmeskal fan in 1992, so I didn't like Bogi at the time either. She grew on me in her 1996 comeback and I can appreciate a lot of things about her now, but I would never consider her an all-time fave.
Me neither. Like I like the idea of her and I highly respect how she FORCED the sport to accommodate her body type by inventing new moves and receiving great values for them, but her later years were ROUGH.

I'm going to admit something blasphemous as well. I was also not a fan of Zmeskal. I mean she had great power, and I love her three whip backs to double back tuck on FX, but she's like everything I hate about Karyoli-American gymnastics. The clappy-clappy choreography, the thumbs in airpits dancing, and her difficulty was basic compared to some of the very top Soviets, Romanians, and even Shannon Miller who did not have half the power Zmeskal had but was determined to increase her skill level to match those at the top internationally. During that era, I also preferred watching the Chinese on bars and beam (I guess who didn't?) when they didn't screw up. If there was a power gymnast I wanted to watch from that era, it was Dominque Dawes.
 

Erin

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I'm going to admit something blasphemous as well. I was also not a fan of Zmeskal. I mean she had great power, and I love her three whip backs to double back tuck on FX, but she's like everything I hate about Karyoli-American gymnastics. The clappy-clappy choreography, the thumbs in airpits dancing, and her difficulty was basic compared to some of the very top Soviets, Romanians, and even Shannon Miller who did not have half the power Zmeskal had but was determined to increase her skill level to match those at the top internationally. During that era, I also preferred watching the Chinese on bars and beam (I guess who didn't?) when they didn't screw up. If there was a power gymnast I wanted to watch from that era, it was Dominque Dawes.
I’m not sure if I would feel the same way about her if I were to just watch her now never having seen her before. But I was 11 in 1992 and was dumb enough to think the Karolyis were awesome until Little Girls in Pretty Boxes came out a few years later. So I was all in on their gymnasts then. And I think I have residual affection for Kim, even if I agree with many of your points logically.
 

Weve3

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I'm going to admit something blasphemous as well. I was also not a fan of Zmeskal.
I’ll admit something even more blasphemous. I was not a fan of Zmeskal, either — or Johnson. Their styles were similar to one another in many ways. They were two little powder kegs doing cutesy, turbocharged, big trick gymnastics. There is nothing wrong with that, but it’s a style or preference of gymnastics that I don’t particularly care for.
 

gk_891

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:ds1:

I actually prefer Svetlana's 1989-1992 Compulsory FX to all others. Svetlana's long lines give an entirely different look to the routine than those seen performed by the pixies like Miller and Gutsu and every gesture looks very finished..
She performed 1989-1992 compulsory floor routine very very well at the 1989 Worlds and 1991 Worlds. It was IMO much stronger than the one she did in Barcelona. I can't find her 1989 Worlds performance but the one she did in 1991 is below.

 

Weve3

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Svetlana’s 89 Euros FX was a winner for her even though the body wave part was a tad cringeworthy. Still, her polish, lines, and attention to detail highlighted a stark difference in comparison to the pixies, as mentioned. Svetlana had an elegance and ease to her tumbling passes that I have always appreciated.

Eta: I would not say she was a chronic poser - I think it was her own individual style and dance interpretation.
 
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floskate

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I always appreciated that Bogi had a woman's body and tried to keep up technically with the little pixies. I was always grateful that the Soviets valued her and kept her around. She had beautiful lines on all four events but getting round certain elements like a double back required technical form sacrifices. But for me, her uniqueness and beautiful bodyline in everything else made up for it. Plus she had a heck of a long career.

I was a bit of a Zmeskal fan in 1990/91 - her powerpack floor and vault was very engaging but even then her bars were laboured and her beam so low in amplitude. Everything looked forced. Watching her and Kerri Strug do compulsories wasn't pretty.
 

escaflowne9282

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I’ll admit something even more blasphemous. I was not a fan of Zmeskal, either — or Johnson. Their styles were similar to one another in many ways. They were two little powder kegs doing cutesy, turbocharged, big trick gymnastics. There is nothing wrong with that, but it’s a style or preference of gymnastics that I don’t particularly care for.
This brings me to the starting point of blasphemy when it comes to American Gymnastics. I absolutely despise Mary Lou Retton!
If we're discussing blasphemy of the 1980s Soviet era. I have to confess that for me, the gymnast I never warmed up to was Laschenova. I felt like we should have seen a lot more than 3 cowboyed double tucks from her on floor in 1989. I thought her 10 on bars at the 1989 world was ludicrous since she was short her handstands. She had a nice layout on beam when she hit it, but I overall never got the fuss.
 
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bardtoob

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This brings me to the starting point of blasphemy when it comes to American Gymnastics. I absolutely despise Mary Lou Retton!
Now please comment on Zmeskal, Shrug, Patterson, Shawn Johnson, Sacramone, Raisman .... :2faced:
 

VGThuy

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This brings me to the starting point of blasphemy when it comes to American Gymnastics. I absolutely despise Mary Lou Retton!
If we're discussing blasphemy of the 1980s Soviet era. I have to confess that for me, the gymnast I never warmed up to was Laschenova. I felt like we should have seen a lot more than 3 cowboyed double tucks from her on floor in 1989. I thought her 10 on bars at the 1989 world was ludicrous since she was short her handstands. She had a nice layout on beam when she hit it, but I overall never got the fuss.
Retton is the worst. I mean her power is impressive but I remember seeing her beam once and I didn’t know top gymnasts from that era could get away with that. Her personality also grates on me, which isn’t her fault but for a time she loved being on TV. I’m going to admit something, a part of me has trouble with Duhamel only because her haircut and her smile and overall public persona reminds me of Retton.

I actually prefer Strug’s tumbling over Zmeskal’s but not Strug’s layouts in beam. Those were a travesty. Did Geza Pozar hate Strug? He always gave her the worst choreography imaginable, and that’s saying a lot for him. Maybe Strug was someone in desperate need for a look and personality that he had no idea what to do with her: she went from looking like Zmeskal 2.0 to Miller 2.0 to Mary Lou Retton 2.0.

Regarding Lasch. I agree the three cowboyed double tucks were overkill and almost destroyed the goodwill she set with that amazing first pass with the double lay-split-punch-round off-round off-double tuck. Speaking of cowboys, I always find the 1992 judging system confusing with what the judges did and didn’t deduct for. I think cowboys were ok in that era only because the Soviets did it. Nastia got away with that and crossed ankles on twists as well. I remember some fan made animation where He Kexin told Nastia that although she understood Americans love their western films, Nastia should stop cowboying as there was no horse for her to land on during her tumbling.

Speaking of Nastia...I think there’s a certain segment of gym fans that are very forgiving with gymnasts if her look, background, demeanor while being blind to the positives of those they think represent the direct opposite even if the opposite may actually have better form or has some positives. That said, I’m glad Nastia won OGM because I may also be biased like that to some degree.
 

Weve3

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Strug never bothered me, she was okay, but then again, I sympathize with any gymnast who trained with the Károlyis' 👿 Moceanu was right and unfortunately caught hell for the longest time. Anyway, I agree that Strug had 💩 choreography. I suppose she did the best she could under the circumstances.

Patterson, nice girl, nothing personal, but her gymnastics left me feeling bored. I hate saying this, but they were blah. Hmm, I don't know. However, she rose to the occasion at the right time, but I was pulling for Diva Khorkina.

Sacramone, it is hard to know where to begin. Before the Olympics, Alicia said that she needed to "man up!" with her foot upon the dashboard while she was driving and interviewing for a fluff piece... :lol:

Alicia’s balance beam mount was very risky. I know some gymnasts prefer it that way, but good lord, ladies, keep it simple. Poor Alicia wouldn't have had Marta digging her claws into her neck after she missed it at the Olys. Shawn turned away, Nastia appeared slightly rattled... 😔 not a good moment.

Anyway, the one thing that I noticed about Alicia's BB routines were the excessive arm/hand movements and lots of posing. Of course, she did the technically challenging BB (FX) routines which is why she was selected in the first place.

Raisman had the success that Sacramone wanted to have. Aly was the fierce one and would challenge anybody to accomplish her goals and dreams. Her style is not my favorite, by any means, and bars were painful. 😩 FX is where she shined. So many people said that Aly could take on the men. Of course, Biles gets that, too.

Eta: speaking of which, Aly was looking to pull the upset over Simone for the AA at the Rio Olympic Games - that was obvious. Despite their friendship, Aly was competitive as hell - and she was going for it! No doubt.
 
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gk_891

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I guess I feel the opposite of many people here. I actually love Boginskaya's Carmen floor routine. I found it riveting. But I absolutely hated her floor routines that she performed at 1989 Worlds, 1991 Worlds, and 1992 Olympics. The worst one of the bunch for me was her 1989 floor routine where she pretends to play the guitar.
 

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