Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[ballettmaus]

2) The length of the ban. Four years seems harsh but Valieva knew she had a positive result and she STILL went out there on Feb 7th and competed. If you are an athlete acting with integrity and respect for CLEAN sport you do the right thing and you do NOT get on that ice, no matter what your entourage is telling you. She absolutely must be held accountable for THAT choice and that is why, I suspect, she got a 4 year ban.

There's logic behind it and if it's true that Valieva knew and still competed, I absolutely would have factored that in if it had been up to me and would have decided like you state above. My problem is that this is CAS and I don't have that much confidence in bodies like that as you are suggesting you have. Would they really follow that thought process and decided to hold her accountable for competing despite having the knowledge of a positive result? If we're talking about a smaller nation then I'd think it's likely. But for Russia?

The question is, how would the notification process have worked exactly? Would they have contacted Valieva directly or would they have contacted her in a way that would have made it possible for another party to shield her from the results? Eg, email, text message or paperwork that didn't require her signature or acknowledgment could have been intercepted by someone else. The only way one can be sure that Valieva did know is if it happened via a call or in person. I'm not trying to defend her, I'm simply saying that bodies like CAS usually use these arguments to weasel out of handing out harsh(er) punishments and I'm not ready to judge Valieva for competing despite being aware of the positive result until I know for sure that she was aware. I'm skeptical about the whole took it by accident or took it without knowing she did. People are willing to do all sorts of things for reasons of ambition and if she was told some version of she had to take whatever she was given in order to be able to compete/skate then, unfortunately, I think it's possible she - like (too) many others - would have. Still, that's a different matter.

 

[airgelaal]

2) The length of the ban. Four years seems harsh but Valieva knew she had a positive result and she STILL went out there on Feb 7th and competed. If you are an athlete acting with integrity and respect for CLEAN sport you do the right thing and you do NOT get on that ice, no matter what your entourage is telling you. She absolutely must be held accountable for THAT choice and that is why, I suspect, she got a 4 year ban.

This is impossible. She should have been informed by RUSADA, as well as the ISU and the IOC. And also she should have been suspended. This is the procedure. If RUSADA informed Valieva, did nothing and waited a day to inform everyone else, then the questions would be directed to RUSADA in the first place. But neither then nor now are there any investigations against RUSADA, which means they informed everyone at the same time.

 

[honey]

I was able to read the article for free through this tweet:

https://x.com/lawton_times/status/1752244353601335653?s=46&t=8Xvbdp66KnY7Eq2TqnBQHw

It says they spoke to sources with knowledge of the case.

It notes that her “heart condition” was harmless (the words of the article) and called “athletic heart” developed after a hard period of training in 2020.

They also pointed to literature in Russia that stated TMZ was useful to young athletes enduring tough training loads.

And it does say she was notified of the positive test February 6th.

The detailed decision reads 130 pages or so.

 

[Lynn226]

I don't want to cause too much thread drift, but I mentioned the Meddling documentary about the SLC pairs scandal earlier in the thread. I finished watching it and I recommend it. The biggest surprise for me? The executive producers are Tara Lipinski and her husband!!

Here's a link to an article about it which includes quotes from Tara.

Two Decades Later, Tara Lipinski Says 'Meddling' Skating Scandal Should 'Not Be Forgotten' | Oxygen Official Site

Olympic figure skater Tara Lipinski has made a film about one of the sport’s most outrageous scandals because she doesn't want its lessons to be forgotten.

www.oxygen.com

 

[tony]

I don't want to cause too much thread drift, but I mentioned the Meddling documentary about the SLC pairs scandal earlier in the thread. I finished watching it and I recommend it. The biggest surprise for me? The executive producers are Tara Lipinski and her husband!!

Here's a link to an article about it which includes quotes from Tara.

Two Decades Later, Tara Lipinski Says 'Meddling' Skating Scandal Should 'Not Be Forgotten' | Oxygen Official Site

Olympic figure skater Tara Lipinski has made a film about one of the sport’s most outrageous scandals because she doesn't want its lessons to be forgotten.

www.oxygen.com

Meddling: New Documentary On Peacock about the 2002 Salt Lake Pairs Scandal

Guess this could also go into the TV alert thread as it’s not just skating mentioned in the documentary. Produced by Tara Lipinski’s husband, Todd. https://www.google.com/amp/s/olympics.nbcsports.com/2022/01/03/peacock-documentaries-olympics-meddling-picabo-street-curling/amp/

www.fsuniverse.net

 

[Coco]

I’ll cheer loudest for TIM KOLETO, ROMAN, and KAREN - the power of Teamwork! Hey, it’s an Olympic medal!

And to think, it was all made possible by the Russians pushing for creation of the team event in the first place.

The claim that KV knew on the 6th might explain Trusova's comment to Eteri "you knew" during her emotional outburst. Am I remembering that right?

Russia made a big deal about not using substitutes. I wonder if that forced them to use KV even after knowing about the positive test.

 

[Wyliefan]

I can't imagine they would have told Trusova about the positive test; those who knew were probably trying to keep it as quiet as possible.

 

[PRlady]

America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and faced NO repercussions from IOC

Sigh. America invaded Afghanistan after terrorists based there attacked this country and killed a lot of Americans. Iraq is a lot harder to defend but even there the US had no interest in annexing or colonizing the country. And didn’t. That’s Putin’s stated goal in Ukraine.

Back to the doping and medal situation: I have a few Canadian friends who are not particularly into skating. Each has complained to me about the bronze medal situation. I don’t think the IOC/ISU is going to get away with this.

 

[Allskate]

The detailed decision reads 130 pages or so.

Thanks for the link. It is obvious that the author is very sympathetic to Valieva, and I do wonder if that colors what they have written. The Times hasn't actually read the decision. The Times "has spoken to sources with knowledge of the case who reflect on the whole process with some serious misgivings." It's not at all clear who those source are.

After reading the article, I remain puzzled by the conclusion that she had failed to sufficiently substantiate her claim that the Trimetazidine was in her system because she had somehow come into contact with her grandfather's medication and the conclusion that she was honest and credible. I think the grandpa claim is ridiculous. Now, maybe her team has lied to her and convinced her that it is true and she believes it because she wants to believe it. Maybe. But, even that is hard for me to believe. According to the Times, there were "No videos from the home, no statement from the pharmacy; nothing that proved that Mr Solovyov did use Preductal. He did not appear before the panel and nor did his wife."

The author is sympathetic, questioning whether a child can be held responsible if it turns out they have been the subject of a sinister, carefully orchestrated doping programme. For me, the answer is yes. That's the rule. American skaters have talked about being incredibly careful about what they consumed even when they were just thirteen years old. More importantly, if a minor is not held responsible, there is not a sufficient deterrent for adults and even more minors will be abused.

With regard to the dates and when Valieva learned of the positive test, it clearly was before the team event free skate. Valieva's lawyers petitioned and got permission for her to compete. According to the Times, a "provisional suspension is applied immediately but an athlete has the right to have it lifted if something like contamination is presented as a plausible explanation." If Valieva's grandpa never provided any evidence that he even had the heart medication, much less that he contaminated her, then I find this decision troubling.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

With regard to the dates and when Valieva learned of the positive test, it clearly was before the team event free skate. Valieva's lawyers petitioned and got permission for her to compete. According to the Times, a "provisional suspension is applied immediately but an athlete has the right to have it lifted if something like contamination is presented as a plausible explanation."

I'm not sure which is worse, the arrogance of the Russians assuming they'd get away with having a doped athlete compete or the cowardice of the officials for going along with it.

 

[Alilou]

I'm not sure which is worse, the arrogance of the Russians assuming they'd get away with having a doped athlete compete or the cowardice of the officials for going along with it.

According to the Times article the officials who gave her permission were in Moscow. Nuff said.

 

[Allskate]

According to the Times article the officials who gave her permission were in Moscow. Nuff said.

I read the article to mean that the petition was prepared in Moscow. The initial suspension was from RUSADA, but I think that was on February 8, after the team event. They then lifted the suspension on February 9 in response to Valieva's petition. Not surprising, that was after the team event. Then, the IOC appealed the Rusada ruling, but CAS allowed her to skate. At that point, it was the individual event that was the issue, though. I don't understand why she was allowed to compete in the Team Event if officials knew that she had tested positive, and I think the decision to allow her to compete in the individual event was wrong.

IOC to appeal lifting of Kamila Valieva's provisional suspension over positive test

The IOC is appealing the lifting of a provisional suspension given to Kamila Valieva on Feb. 8 following the discovery of a positive drug test stemming from Russian Figure Skating Championships in December.

www.nbcolympics.com

 

[Alilou]

I read the article to mean that the petition was prepared in Moscow. The initial suspension was from RUSADA, but I think that was on February 8, after the team event. They then lifted the suspension on February 9 in response to Valieva's petition. Not surprising, that was after the team event. Then, the IOC appealed the Rusada ruling, but CAS allowed her to skate. At that point, it was the individual event that was the issue, though. I don't understand why she was allowed to compete in the Team Event if officials knew that she had tested positive, and I think the decision to allow her to compete in the individual event was wrong.

IOC to appeal lifting of Kamila Valieva's provisional suspension over positive test

The IOC is appealing the lifting of a provisional suspension given to Kamila Valieva on Feb. 8 following the discovery of a positive drug test stemming from Russian Figure Skating Championships in December.

www.nbcolympics.com

thanks for clarifying.

 

[manhn]

Why am I out here fighting for Eric and Vanessa’s medal?!? Oh, Meagan, how I adore you.

 

[Karen-W]

Why am I out here fighting for Eric and Vanessa’s medal?!? Oh, Meagan, how I adore you.

she is more of an advocate for the Canadian skaters than their own fed or NOC.

 

[airgelaal]

With regard to the dates and when Valieva learned of the positive test, it clearly was before the team event free skate. Valieva's lawyers petitioned and got permission for her to compete. According to the Times, a "provisional suspension is applied immediately but an athlete has the right to have it lifted if something like contamination is presented as a plausible explanation." If Valieva's grandpa never provided any evidence that he even had the heart medication, much less that he contaminated her, then I find this decision troubling.

Let me just remind that there is a 5 hour difference between Moscow and Beijing. The short program for women and the first free program for men took place on February 6 in the morning in Beijing. It was no longer possible to change anything, only to withdraw completely.

 

[caseyedwards]

Sigh. America invaded Afghanistan after terrorists based there attacked this country and killed a lot of Americans. Iraq is a lot harder to defend but even there the US had no interest in annexing or colonizing the country. And didn’t. That’s Putin’s stated goal in Ukraine.

Back to the doping and medal situation: I have a few Canadian friends who are not particularly into skating. Each has complained to me about the bronze medal situation. I don’t think the IOC/ISU is going to get away with this.

Actually all the terrorist hijackers were based in and trained for their attack in America. Afghanistan just didn’t play any role. Taliban and Afghanistan didn’t force Americans to ignore visa law violations

And of course everyone knows ioc has final say over their own property.

 

[Allskate]

Why am I out here fighting for Eric and Vanessa’s medal?!? Oh, Meagan, how I adore you

I understand her frustration. I'm not sure I would have agreed to give people rides from the airport if I were her. Skate Canada really does seem incompetent and wimpy.

The ISU still hasn't responded to Christine's questions about the math. After speaking to an IOC official, Phil seems to think that the IOC might overturn the ISU's decision about Canada not medaling.

I think it's interesting that grandpa reportedly did not present any evidence. He could have lied if he wanted to, and I would think that they would have wanted him to. I wonder if he's refused to do that because he believes that he is being used as a pawn to protect Eteri and the rest of the folks involved with Valieva. But, he might also be worried about consequences from not lying. It's all rather puzzling.

I hope the full report does get released.

 

[Karen-W]

Let me just remind that there is a 5 hour difference between Moscow and Beijing. The short program for women and the first free program for men took place on February 6 in the morning in Beijing. It was no longer possible to change anything, only to withdraw completely.

Which is what Valieva and the ROC should have done. That is really what pisses me off the MOST about what we now know of the timeline. If I were the IOC I'd be telling the idiots at the ISU to fix their recalculated results and kick Russia off the podium. The ROC, RUSADA, and the RFSF have ZERO respect for the integrity of the event, the Olympics or the concept of clean sport. It is a complete slap in the face, especially after the way Russia had been allowed to compete despite their multitude of doping infractions going back for a decade now. They simply DO NOT CARE about any rules. They think they are above those rules and have demonstrated time and again they will do ANYTHING to win.

 

[Coco]

I see, so they had to go with the contamination story to get the provisional suspension lifted. That is why they went with that bizarre theory.

 

[The Observer]

I understand her frustration. I'm not sure I would have agreed to give people rides from the airport if I were her. Skate Canada really does seem incompetent and wimpy.

The ISU still hasn't responded to Christine's questions about the math. After speaking to an IOC official, Phil seems to think that the IOC might overturn the ISU's decision about Canada not medaling.

Skate Canada and the ISU need to handle this situation properly and make sure to do the right thing. Figure skating cannot continue to be involved in these types of scandals without it hurting the image of the sport in the minds of the public.

Figure skating is already a sport on the decline here in North America, both in the decreased television coverage and the decreasing number of people buying tickets to attend skating events. If cheating & doping is allowed to go unpunished, then even more people may decide to give up on figure skating.

 

[Coco]

I can't imagine they would have told Trusova about the positive test; those who knew were probably trying to keep it as quiet as possible.

At the time, no. But her outburst was after the individual event, after days and days of discussion and speculation. Weren't A, A & K rooming together? Seems like it would have come out.

 

[airgelaal]

Which is what Valieva and the ROC should have done. That is really what pisses me off the MOST about what we now know of the timeline. If I were the IOC I'd be telling the idiots at the ISU to fix their recalculated results and kick Russia off the podium. The ROC, RUSADA, and the RFSF have ZERO respect for the integrity of the event, the Olympics or the concept of clean sport. It is a complete slap in the face, especially after the way Russia had been allowed to compete despite their multitude of doping infractions going back for a decade now. They simply DO NOT CARE about any rules. They think they are above those rules and have demonstrated time and again they will do ANYTHING to win.

That is if they knew. But I already wrote that I doubt it. RUSADA could not inform Valieva, do nothing and inform the ISU and the IOC a day later.

 

[BlueRidge]

Like everyone else I couldn't access the Times article, but on clicking into it it gave every appearance of being an opinion piece, so it may not be particularly reliable.

 

[puglover]

Maddi H., in the interview tagged earlier in this thread, spoke to the frustration of their competitors when she said basically competitors from outside Russia view them as having "a systemic culture of wanting to find the next advantage". That must be so disheartening. Sadly after waiting 721 days for this outcome, no lessons seem to have been learned, no one contrite, no one responsible.

 

[Karen-W]

Like everyone else I couldn't access the Times article, but on clicking into it it gave every appearance of being an opinion piece, so it may not be particularly reliable.

There was a link to the article that the author tweeted and, yes, it was an opinion piece sprinkled with a few new bits of unconfirmed information we hadn't heard or seen before in any reputable news outlets.

 

[terisa]

Actually all the terrorist hijackers were based in and trained for their attack in America. Afghanistan just didn’t play any role. Taliban and Afghanistan didn’t force Americans to ignore visa law violations

And of course everyone knows ioc has final say over their own property.

And they got their GO order from Osama Bin Laden, who was holed up in Afghanistan. Which is who American troops went in looking for. But you probably already know that.

 

[Yuri]

As a former USFSA Accountant, I believe the ISU did the right thing with the math as moving everyone else up a spot could cause havoc in situations where someone in the middle of the pack is DQ'd, as opposed to whoever finished first as with the Valieva case. It goes without saying that the ISU's rules should have been clearer including having a numerical example. But given the choice of two bad options, I think the ISU chose the least bad option to award ROC downgraded bronze medals (with Valieva getting nothing) rather than bumping up CAN to bronze position. I will proceed to a numerical example based upon the actual results of the 2022 Team Event.

To stay with the Russian-hate theme in this thread, let's assume that Sinitsina & Katsalapov were disqualified instead of Kamila Valieva. They finished 2nd in the Rhythm Dance behind Hubbell & Donohue USA and 2nd in the Free Dance behind Chock & Bates USA, so initially you would subtract 18 points (9 RD, 9 FD) and ROC drops from 74 to 56 points.

USA started with 65 points but doesn't gain any points because both couples already placed 1st in the RD and FD.

CAN started with 53 points and Gilles & Poirer pick up 1 point in the RD (7 to 8) and FD (8 to 9) for 55 points. In this example, CAN would remain 1 point below ROC with 56.

But what about JPN now, since Komatsubara & Koleto now add 1 point in RD (4 to 5) and in FD (6 to 7)? Their 2 points boosts JPN from 63 to 65: TIED in a dead heat with the USA at 65 points each! Maybe there's a tiebreaker, but still!

Very strange things can happen in a Team Event when you start moving folks up after a DQ that don't happen in an individual event like Europeans where it's always relatively simple to move everyone up a placement when Valieva got disqualified. But the Olympics Team Event really is a version of the old factored placement system (however, with equal weightings for all 8 sub competitions) when there were ordinals.

By the way, I predicted this would happen two years ago when FSU first was doing the calculations and got shredded here for it. I assumed a political decision would be made for ROC to get bronze and CAN to miss the podium, and they would make the math happen rather than follow common sense. BUT I think I have demonstrated above that it's not clear-cut that everyone else should move up for a DQ as unintentionally it can wreak havoc for the other teams!

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

As a former USFSA Accountant, I believe the ISU did the right thing with the math as moving everyone else up a spot could cause havoc in situations where someone in the middle of the pack is DQ'd, as opposed to whoever finished first as with the Valieva case.

Why would that cause havoc? Everyone just moves up a spot. It's not like that's complicated thinking.

To stay with the Russian-hate theme in this thread,

BUT I think I have demonstrated above that it's not clear-cut that everyone else should move up for a DQ as unintentionally it can wreak havoc for the other teams!

No. You haven't. Not at all. Everyone moves up after a DQ (especially for cheating and doping) and points get reallocated. Pretty damn simple rule to follow.

ETA: Tiebreakers happen without cheating. That's why the tiebreaker rules exist. So a tiebreaker after a DQ shouldn't be any big deal or exception after the point reallocation. It's not an end of the world scenario that must be avoided at all costs.

How long did it take you to come up with your convoluted scenario to "prove" your point?

 

[On My Own]

BUT I think I have demonstrated above that it's not clear-cut that everyone else should move up for a DQ as unintentionally it can wreak havoc for the other teams!

I agree it's not "should". I would be happy to see them take note and come up with a better plan, but y'know. ISU.