U.S. Men 2025-26 Discussion - Quad God and the Mere Mortals

VGThuy said:
Let’s relive this debate again. Who should have been dropped using the BOW standards at the time?
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We can relive this debate - and people can insist on ignoring the standards. But, more importantly, I really hope that Ilia and his team don't conclude that he would have been fine this week if he had gone to the Olympics. I understand that he wants to direct his frustration somewhere. But, I hope he doesn't walk away from this thinking that now that he has Olympic experience, it will be fine next time. He needs to build up tools to deal with the massive pressure, expectations, criticism, etc. As I said in his thread, I hope he can talk with Simone Biles.
 
Allskate said:
We can relive this debate - and people can insist on ignoring the standards. But, I really hope that Ilia and his team don't conclude that he would have been fine this week if he had gone to the Olympics. I understand that he wants to direct his frustration somewhere. But, I hope he doesn't walk away from this thinking that now that he has Olympic experience, it will be fine next time. He needs to build up tools to deal with the massive pressure, expectations, criticism, etc. As I said in his thread, I hope he can talk with Simone Biles.
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Agreed. Hell, he can just talk to Nathan Chen.
 
If we want to use another example Yagudin vs Plushenko. Yagudin went to the Previous Olympics and Plushy didn’t. Four hears later Plushy won.

The experience helps and it was clear he would maybe a medal favorite. Would it have guaranteed him Gold No. But it would not have hurt.

And its about IMO not holding back young talent. I am not against BOW but it should not be used to hold up skaters who showed time and time again they aren’t competitive for the top spots.

I would have not sent Jason.

I absolutely agree Ilia has to be no excuses but he has the right to be upset and i also suspect he has been upset about it since 2022
 
I know it's easy to think that Ilia going in 2022 would have made the difference, but I think he still would have struggled in this free. You could see him dealing with Olympic pressure all week, and honestly handling the nerves fairly well, keeping the mistakes minimal and putting up a clean short in the individual event. I think it's that he's been so dominant the past 3 seasons, and that he went into this event knowing the medal was his if he performed anywhere near his planned content. His closest competitors have all been inconsistent and injury plagued, or have hard PCS walls they'd run into. And then the two people closest to him after the short bombed their frees. This was his, he knew it, NBC knew it, everyone tuning in did. That's where the head game comes in. It's an incredibly difficult position, and there is no way to prepare for that exact scenario. I was impressed with how much more humbly he seemed to be speaking after the team event--I think it gave him the Oly experience he needed. There was just too much pressure for him to handle tonight. Maybe if Yuma or Adam had nailed their frees it would have been easier, as Ilia would have had someone to fight other than himself, but he was the only thing standing in his way.

Just looking at the 'needing a first Olympics in order to win' idea, going back over 40 years on the ladies side, the only winners I can think of who weren't first timers were Witt (coming back for her second gold after winning at her first Olympics) and Shizuka (skated in 98 with absolutely zero expectations). For men it's rarer--anyone other than Kulik & Hanyu (who wasn't exactly at his best in 2014)? Interesting divergence--I wonder how the psychology differs between the groups.
 
becca said:
And its about IMO not holding back young talent. I am not against BOW but it should not be used to hold up skaters who showed time and time again they aren’t competitive for the top spots.
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Soooo, USFS should have ignored its own rules last time, and should have ignored their rules this time as well and sent Jacob and maybe Patrick instead of Max and Andrew?
 
Allskate said:
Soooo, USFS should have ignored its own rules last time, and should have ignored their rules this time as well and sent Jacob and maybe Patrick instead of Max and Andrew?
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Haven’t been paying as much attention this quad. But I am a big believer that if we are going to ignore nationals the skater should have an incredible resume. If it was just a few points difference it would be one thing.

But what Illia did that Nationals was astounding and I feared he would be facing Chen like pressure 4 years later.

It is their job to prepare their young talent and make sure Body of Work isn’t holding young folks back. It was extremely suggestive criteria designed for favortism
 
While it’s always fun watching people blame Jason Brown for the downfall of U.S. men’s skating even though he’s been an integral part of maintaining three spots for the U.S. men over the last decade and only went to one (1) Olympics in that time frame, I don’t know how anyone could chalk up Ilia’s performance today to first-Olympics jitters.

Two of the three medalists had first-Olympics jitters. Ilia had a meltdown because the pressure that the media puts on the medal favorites is outrageous and he didn’t have the tools to deal with it. It does a disservice to the athletes to pretend it was anything else. We should have a conversation about a) what kind of expectations are reasonable to throw at these kids in the first place, and b) how do we make sure they are equipped to handle the pressure. Reviving the 2022 debate is asinine and will do nothing to keep this from happening to other young athletes in the future.
 
her grace said:
Jason finished 6th at the 2022 Olympics. Wild to say that he didn’t belong there/earn his spot.
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Jason never won an Olympic or World individual medal and it was clear he would not at the Olympics. Sixth place finish is good sure but it is absolutely sacrificible for an Olympic gold medal four years ago and who knows Ilia would have had nothing to lose.

These people knew full well Illia’s clear talent and it was their job to make darn sure they did everything they could to prepare him.
 
Trillian said:
While it’s always fun watching people blame Jason Brown for the downfall of U.S. men’s skating even though he’s been an integral part of maintaining three spots for the U.S. men over the last decade and only went to one (1) Olympics in that time frame, I don’t know how anyone could chalk up Ilia’s performance today to first-Olympics jitters.

Two of the three medalists had first-Olympics jitters. Ilia had a meltdown because the pressure that the media puts on the medal favorites is outrageous and he didn’t have the tools to deal with it. It does a disservice to the athletes to pretend it was anything else. We should have a conversation about a) what kind of expectations are reasonable to throw at these kids in the first place, and b) how do we make sure they are equipped to handle the pressure. Reviving the 2022 debate is asinine and will do nothing to keep this from happening to other young athletes in the future.
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Oh It will absolutely IMO causes some reforms because next time they have this choice ( a skater of Illias magnitude) in the back of their mind they will remember and the media will remind them. It is their selection committee who deserves the heat.
 
becca said:
Sixth place finish is good sure but it is absolutely sacrificible for an Olympic gold medal four years ago and who knows Ilia would have had nothing to lose.

These people knew full well Illia’s clear talent and it was their job to make darn sure they did everything they could to prepare him.
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No way would Ilia have won gold at the last Olympics. Not a chance.

And it was his parents/coaches' job to look at the rules and figure out the best way to get him on that Olympic team.
 
becca said:
These people knew full well Illia’s clear talent and it was their job to make darn sure they did everything they could to prepare him.
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Sure, and you might think that finishing 14th (or whatever) in 2022 was the little bit of extra preparation he needed.

Someone else might think keeping Ari Zakarian as far away from him as possible would have been great preparation.

The reality is, he was extremely well-prepared as an athlete and as a competitor. He was not prepared for what the media and the public wanted from him as a gold medal favorite. I don’t know what USFS needs to do to make sure athletes are equipped for that circus, but “send them to more competitions” isn’t it.
 
Trillian said:
Sure, and you might think that finishing 14th (or whatever) in 2022 was the little bit of extra preparation he needed.

Someone else might think keeping Ari Zakarian as far away from him as possible would have been great preparation.

The reality is, he was extremely well-prepared as an athlete and as a competitor. He was not prepared for what the media and the public wanted from him as a gold medal favorite. I don’t know what USFS needs to do to make sure athletes are equipped for that circus, but “send them to more competitions” isn’t it.
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Giving your young skaters competitions is a time tested strategy it absolutely never hurts
 
her grace said:
Jason finished 6th at the 2022 Olympics. Wild to say that he didn’t belong there/earn his spot.
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becca said:
Jason never won an Olympic or World individual medal and it was clear he would not at the Olympics. Sixth place finish is good sure but it is absolutely sacrificible for an Olympic gold medal four years ago and who knows Ilia would have had nothing to lose.

These people knew full well Illia’s clear talent and it was their job to make darn sure they did everything they could to prepare him.
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Evgeniafan said:
It's Vincent that should have been off the team.
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Since we are revisiting this...

In 2022, the USFS' selection criteria was done by a Priority Tiered Group Ranking.

Nathan was in Group 1 based on his scoring from the fall (scores equal to 2021 Worlds Top 3 AND Nationals Top 3 finish).
Vincent was in Group 2 based on his scoring from the fall (scores equal to 2021 Worlds Top 5 AND Nationals Top 5 finish).

Going into Nationals, Jason was in Group 3 based on his scoring from the fall (scores equal to 2021 Worlds Top 10) and Ilia was in Group 4 based on his scoring from the fall (where he mostly competed on the JGP & had a less than stellar senior debut at IceChallenge Graz but still managed to earn the Olympic TES mins).

Due to Ilia's 2nd place finish at Nationals where he spanked both Vincent & Jason, he moved into Group 3 (Top 3 at Nats OR fall scores equal to 2021 Worlds Top 10).

At that point, Nathan & Vincent were prioritized for selection to the Olympic team and the USFS has to decide between Ilia & Jason. Ilia was not a 2018 Ross Miner situation where he'd futzed around with mediocre senior results for an entire Olympic cycle & then some who blew it out of the water at Nats & thought that would be enough to put him on the Olympic team despite skaters like Adam & Jason both having a stronger BOW than him from the fall 2017-18 season. He was an up-and-coming, very promising rising senior who had a breakout performance at Nationals which was only a hint of what was to come for him. Yes, Jason had a strong fall, but he was a skater who was in the latter part of his career already then at 26 and had been to one Olympics, back in 2014, where he was the up-and-coming promising rising senior with a breakout performance at Nationals.

Seeing that the USFS had zero intention of using Jason in the 2022 Team Event, choosing him over the promising youngster who had spanked him at Nationals was a boneheaded decision. And what Jason has done in the 4 years since to help the USFS retain 3 spots for the men is entirely irrelevant to the discussion about what SHOULD have happened with the 2022 team selection. And, for what it's worth, retaining 3 spots is a team effort and Jason's skates alone wouldn't have made it happen since he's never once medaled at Worlds and his best Worlds finish has been 5th. We don't get three spots without Ilia and the USFS has been relying on him to make that happen, more than Jason, for the last three seasons.

I don't know that the Beijing Olympics environment would have necessarily prepared Ilia for the Milano-Cortina environment, but we saw what happened at Worlds 2022 when he was facing a tremendous amount of pressure & expectations, especially after Nathan & Jason both withdrew. It got in his head. I've long thought that the meltdown at 2022 Worlds wouldn't have happened had he had the Olympics experience a month earlier. And I firmly believe that at least having some sort of Olympic experience coming into Milano would have been better than none at all.

It is what it is and it doesn't matter now. Hopefully the USFS will take this into consideration in the future, but I have little faith they will.
 
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Vagabond said:
Vincent? Vincent the Olympic Gold Medalist?
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Thank you for this.

You know the Jason truthers out there will never accept that Jason was never going to be the #2 US man going into Beijing. They live in a fantasy world where, had the GPF that season not been canceled, Jason would have beat Vincent there, all while forgetting that Vincent still managed to beat Jason at Nats despite both of them having pretty poor free skates.
 
Kateri said:
I get the impulse from his fans to find someone else to blame, and exonerate Ilia, but... it's okay if it's his fault? I mean this in the kindest possible way. He skated badly, and that sucks for him. It doesn't make him a bad person, or a bad skater, just human.
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THIS x 1000.

The one thing we do know is that the Olympic pressure caught up with Ilia and he wasn't in the right headspace to deliver what he normally does.

The End.
 
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