The tipping dilemma in the US?

So serious question- the servers and other service workers deserve less for a point of service platform setup and/or owner decisions?

It’s really very easy to just put a custom tip in any time one sees these options. 🤷🏼‍♂️
I added something to my post as you were posting this. There is a psychological trigger here, and I do believe that you will understand what it is. Please feel free to PM me.
 
What do service workers think is a right sized tip?

I mean I know we all would like the highest pay we can receive but...

If I have to choose between a 25% and eating (or drinking or coffee or whatever) once every 3 weeks or a tip of 18% and go out every week what is better - one person getting a 25-30% tip or three people getting an 18% tip?
 
What do service workers think is a right sized tip?

I mean I know we all would like the highest pay we can receive but...

If I have to choose between a 25% and eating (or drinking or coffee or whatever) once every 3 weeks or a tip of 18% and go out every week what is better - one person getting a 25-30% tip or three people getting an 18% tip?
Good question. I’ve always heard the argument that if you go out to eat you should expect to tip X amount. Which is getting higher and higher.

I also hear we should pay a living wage and not have to tip. Are servers paid a living wage in Europe? Maybe it’s me on my vacation budget, but i feel it is way cheaper to go out to eat in Europe than the USA, even if the dollar is weaker. I definitely feel it’s because alcohol isn’t marked up as much. I’ve been out in Spain (and other European countries) and spent $90 with multiple plates and bottle of wine that would have cost me over $200 in the US.
 
The difference is that people in Europe have universal health insurance and a deeper social safety net in general. In some parts of Europe at least, housing is more affordable than it is in the US here. Being a wait person or bartender is still considered a full-time profession for adults, at least in some countries.

When I was astonished about how inexpensive Rioja was when I visited, friends from Barcelona told me in the early 00's that many restaurants in Spain had very deep wine cellars.
 
But I want to know how we are going to account for ‘base salaries’ to work in a service industry setting that actually are fair across the board. The minimum wage in Florida is not even near enough to get a studio apartment in the Miami or Fort Lauderdale area.

Raise prices of the menu. Housing prices in Florida or anywhere else should be the concern of the employer and the government, not the diner / patron.

Tipping 18-20% is standard, and I'm the first to tell visitors to the US that they must do this - it's not optional. But if restaurants believe their workers need more than 18-20% tips + their wages, then they should raise the prices of the menu, not expect people to tip increasingly more.

I also hear we should pay a living wage and not have to tip. Are servers paid a living wage in Europe?

Depends. Europe is very big and a collection of 40+ countries with different laws and policies.

As a broad generalization, servers earn more in base salary and less in tips (where tips exist) than in the US. If you looked at a histogram of server pay, it would be far narrower in Europe than in the US -- few people earning at the very low end, but also few people earning the kind of very high incomes (most in tips) that high-end servers can make in the US.

Maybe it’s me on my vacation budget, but i feel it is way cheaper to go out to eat in Europe than the USA, even if the dollar is weaker. I definitely feel it’s because alcohol isn’t marked up as much. I’ve been out in Spain (and other European countries) and spent $90 with multiple plates and bottle of wine that would have cost me over $200 in the US.

Yes, there are often inexpensive local bottles of wine in most European restaurants (especially countries that produce wine), and the markup is much lower. Mediterraneans would boycott any restaurant that tried to charge US wine prices.

The difference is that people in Europe have universal health insurance and a deeper social safety net in general. In some parts of Europe at least, housing is more affordable than it is in the US here. Being a wait person or bartender is still considered a full-time profession for adults, at least in some countries.

As a broad generalization, this is true. Another factor: population density is higher, and public transport is better, so people can get to work without a car usually even in mid-size cities. (A car may make life easier, though.) Motor scooters are also more common and very affordable.

Some parts of Europe have done better than others (e.g., London, Dublin) at keeping housing costs affordable. In London, most servers have very long commutes, and restaurants and pubs close early because the servers need to take the last tube often to very far zones.

Other parts of Europe, e.g., Switzerland and the Nordics, have more protectionist policies: very high minimum wages pegged to inflation, virtual bans on foreigners buying property, etc. I promise you that no one will say going out to eat in those countries is inexpensive :lol:.

One last caveat: what's true for the older generation is often not true for the younger generation. Youth unemployment remains sky-high in Mediterranean countries (in part due to protections for older workers), and restaurant/server jobs for younger people are often on temporary contracts or cash-in-hand, very low paid, and with terrible conditions.
 
Just as an FYI - I spent 2+ weeks in Italy. Comparison and contrast is my thing.

One doesn't really tip there, but I found the service on par with what you would expect at an American restaurant. In fact, I found the wait staff's knowledge about the food to be better, but that could be unique to Italy, a country that is passionate about its food.
 
In my city there is 9.5% tax for restaurants (sales tax and restaurant city tax) + credit card charge (usually 0.02% I think) plus some places add a service charge. I'm not sure what beverage taxes are.

Let's just use the restaurant taxes at 9.2% and a 20% tip as a baseline for a $70.00 dinner with friends at a sports bar meal.

That's ~$92 for 2 burger/fries dinners or chicken wraps, 2 beers, 1 glass of wine and maybe spilt an appetizer with 1 other couple.

Many times one or both of us have ice tea or diet coke. Sometimes we go at happy hour. Brings the meal down to $55 meal cost ~$77.

We tend to go out 5 times a month at a Burger or Mexican restaurant type medium price range. If I increase the tip to 25%, that changes the $70 meal to around $96.

But add service charges + credit card charges, change one meal to nicer restaurant from $70 to $120 (now steak or salmon or some other) + 3- 4 glasses wine. We don't even think about a really expensive restaurant or meal more than maybe a significant anniversary.

Disclaimer - I'm not the best at math.

All the tip expectations changes our dining out frequency. We realize we have the ability to do a lot of eating out.

As I said, I don't know if there is a separate alcohol tax - I'd bet there is.

That's just sit down restaurants for family of Iwo. I looked at arena food, DQ, occasional fast food and pizza (more than fast food costs.) Change the tip to 10% there.

Yes - if you can't pay the tips don't go out to eat. Remember how bad Covid shut downs were for restaurants? Tip expectations won't be as bad, at least for a while, but it does change frequency of going out

Housing costs, food costs, are rising.. salaries for everyone are not, everyone has those too.

What is the breaking point for tip expectations?
 
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Just as an FYI - I spent 2+ weeks in Italy. Comparison and contrast is my thing.

One doesn't really tip there, but I found the service on par with what you would expect at an American restaurant. In fact, I found the wait staff's knowledge about the food to be better, but that could be unique to Italy, a country that is passionate about its food.

I think the cuisine matters, so you got to compare an Italian restaurant in Milano with an Italian restaurant in, say, NYC. Is a sushi restaurant in Rome gonna have better and more knowledgeable staff than a sushi restaurant in, say, the Bay Area?

I have visited my fair share of coffeeshops and I generally found service to be the same. I wonder if Starbucks has provided a template of what acceptable coffee service entails and business owners just meet that bar. Some are obviously better than others, it’s more about a specific business than an entire region.
 
When we were in France in December (GP final and then Paris) we listened to a huge rant from our French friends about ‘American style tipping ruining Europe’. Mainly because in many countries especially in Europe (& some Caribbean countries), service charges are included which includes tips. But then North Americans (as some Canadians do it too) - tip above and beyond. As they were raised in a country where servers don’t make minimum wage (America), forgetting that in many countries not only do they get minimum wage or more but also get benefits and health care etc. In Ontario as of October 1st our servers will get $17.60/hr, free health care, free dental and they contribute to the Canadian pension plan. In America the federal minimum wage for ‘tipped’ employees is $2.13/hr and if their ‘tips’ don’t reach the minimum wage of $7.25/hr the employer has to make it up. In France the minimum wage for a server is 11.33 euro. So you can see why Americans might get confused assuming everyone else in the world has to pay the servers wages.
 
The other tricky issue is the difference between what locals tip and what North Americans are expected to tip because we're 1. Too self-centered to know how it works locally and 2. There is a NA tourist "tax" outside NA for just being NA's, ie, more than locals and < typical expectations in NA.

In my experience of living in and traveling to Canada, the expectation for tipping in Ontario is the same as the expectation for tipping in Vancouver is the same as the expectation of tipping in Seattle is the same as the expectation for tipping in Phoenix, even if the base wage and social safety net benefits are much greater in one place than another.
 
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Housing costs, food costs, are rising.. salaries for everyone are not, everyone has those too.

What is the breaking point for tip expectations?

I used to always calculate the tip on the total amount, not the pre-tax amount. Even in NYC, with (approximately) 9% tax, the difference between calculating a tip on $100 ($20) and $109 ($21) is rounding error. I'm pedantic enough in other aspects of life :COP: that I try not to be in my leisure time.

That said, parts of California are (as with many things) beyond the point of all reason with restaurant bills (and hotel bills). There is charge after charge after charge after charge. It's a ridiculous list of itemizations that include things like service charges, wait staff wage adjustments, healthcare for workers, etc. often with an explanation that they're not a "tip." While all of those things may be worthy causes, they're not my responsibility. It's price deception to put a lower price on the menu and then add in all of these fees. I wish there would be national regulation prohibiting anything beyond sales tax to be added to a receipt and requiring sales taxes to be added together with a cumulative percentage displayed clearly on menus and boards.

In the mean time, I do carefully look at bills in California and tip exactly 18% on the pre-tax amount, far less generously than I would in other places, because of this litany of surcharges.

When we were in France in December (GP final and then Paris) we listened to a huge rant from our French friends about ‘American style tipping ruining Europe’.

In the tourist areas of Nice, waiters at sit-down restaurants will ask me how much I'd like to add for a tip (because they hear an American accent). My Italian friends who use my house from time to time go to the same restaurants and say no one has ever asked them :lol:. The last time, I had Brits on either side of me. I was curious if the Brits would be asked to tip. They were, but one did not and the other just left a coin or two. (That said - I happily tip 10% because the waiters in the tourist areas of Nice bust their asses. It's often one chef and one server working 20+ tables.)

So you can see why Americans might get confused assuming everyone else in the world has to pay the servers wages.

The other tricky issue is the difference between what locals tip and what North Americans are expected to tip because we're 1. Too self-centered to know how it works locally and 2. There is a NA tourist "tax" outside NA for just being NA's, ie, more than locals and < expectations in NA.

I know what I'm "supposed" to tip, but I usually tip more anyway. 1) I can afford it; 2) Tourists should pay more taxes, IMO; and 3) there's a certain level of it being ingrained. I also don't haggle in places like India, Morocco, Egypt etc. unless I know I'm really getting ripped off. Even then, I'll stop negotiating when I know I'm 30-200% above the real price (depending on the amount). Paying $3 for a rickshaw ride that I know should've cost $1 isn't going to make a difference for me, but may allow someone else to enjoy a little luxury. Fine. I'm glad they charge Americans and Brits more.

The one area where I've stopped tipping is at bars. My British friends flat-out refused to go to a pub or bar with me if I was going to insist on leaving a tip. :lol:
 
Just to chime in I've been told sit down restaurant you tip on the total food only no tax and no alcohol as alcohol is already marked up. So I rough total food and give 20% depending on how much alcohol I've had lol.

Just came back from Europe Austria, Czech, Germany, France - all asked for a tip except France I believe. I don't know if it is the effect of tourism and tipping culture or if they are underpaid but I gave them 10% of the total by card and was always thanked - actually in one place the waiter said the tip was directly to the staff and the service charge went to the restaurant.

I was chased down by a waiter in Rome once and told I needed to tip the waitstaff! I didn't know what to do so gave him 20 Euros.
 
Coincidentally wapo had editorial supporting DC council repealing living wage for servers law!


All parties appear dug in on the issue, which the ongoing fight against inflation has magnified. Labor advocates and many Democrats want workers to earn higher wages and rely less on gratuities. Business groups and many Republicans want to keep payroll costs and menu prices down. Consumers want to be nagged less to tip.



Of course I don’t like to hear living wage puts restaurants out of business. But that’s only really when owner don’t want to raise their menu items prices lest they lose customers to sticker shock.


Americans are used to paying less for things because of low wage labor.
 
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Servers in Canada might get "free health care" but that's basic coverage. They certainly wouldn't have to go into the same amounts of health care debt as in the US to get treatment, but for a lot of things (e.g. vision exams) there are costs above and beyond what's covered for free. For anyone earning minimum wage, those additional costs can be a significant expense.
 
Just to chime in I've been told sit down restaurant you tip on the total food only no tax and no alcohol as alcohol is already marked up. So I rough total food and give 20% depending on how much alcohol I've had lol.

Just came back from Europe Austria, Czech, Germany, France - all asked for a tip except France I believe. I don't know if it is the effect of tourism and tipping culture or if they are underpaid but I gave them 10% of the total by card and was always thanked - actually in one place the waiter said the tip was directly to the staff and the service charge went to the restaurant.

I was chased down by a waiter in Rome once and told I needed to tip the waitstaff! I didn't know what to do so gave him 20 Euros.
They must have heard your accent (assuming North American). I still have my British accent even though I live in Canada and I never get asked for tips and was in France in December and all over in September. Even in the Caribbean if I’m in Barbados or Curaçao - less of a tipping culture I think because of the European influence.. but go to any other island and they are all over you. I am sticking with my 15% in Canada if I am being served.. nothing for takeout.. in fact we said at work we are all under paid social workers and we should start asking for tips now.. our students say they make more money serving than they do being a professional.
 
I was chased down by a waiter in Rome once and told I needed to tip the waitstaff! I didn't know what to do so gave him 20 Euros.
You were scammed. You should have told him to feck off.

I will leave up to 10% at a proper restaurant here if the service is adequate. But nobody is going to coming running after to me if I don’t.

Tipping culture in the US is bonkers. Pay your staff a proper wage and increase the prices accordingly to cover that!
 
As I said, I don't know if there is a separate alcohol tax - I'd bet there is.
I think there is in Iowa. There isn't in California.

I also don't haggle in places like India, Morocco, Egypt etc. unless I know I'm really getting ripped off.
Me too. I used to think I was a bag haggler but I asked about the price of a Christmas tree ornament in Panama that I thought was outrageous and I just naturally said a lower price. I ended up paying what I thought it was worth which is probably more than they thought it was worth, but I was okay about it. Usually, the price seems fair so I just pay it.

Just to chime in I've been told sit down restaurant you tip on the total food only no tax and no alcohol as alcohol is already marked up. So I rough total food and give 20% depending on how much alcohol I've had lol.
I've never heard of not including alcohol.

I will say that eating out gets WAY more expensive if you drink alcohol. I rarely do when out and have experienced friends who drank paying $20-50 more for their dinner than we did.
 
WA State has sales tax on alcohol at restaurants: 13+%. It’s over 20% in stores.

But we have no income tax, just a slew of regressive taxes.
 
I say all dishes should be tapas or smaller sized to keep the prices low. Many times I would have trouble deciding which dish to pick b/c they all sound delicious. If they were smaller, I could choose many of them. One could say you could go back, but I see it as what if I never come back b/c life is too short or I am not going to be in the area any time soon b/c it's too far.
 
I remember seeing signs in European airports about reclaiming VAT on purchases made in Europe. I did that a couple of times, and then, in the middle of filling out another form, it occurred to me that VAT either pays for the things I appreciate the most and/or it allows other money to pay for the things I appreciate most, like infrastructure, public transit, an educated populace, etc. So I stopped.
 
The no tip on alcohol is at least in Ontario the markup in restaurants is ridiculous
I had a nice bottle of wine 40$ at the restaurant went to the liquor store to pick it up and found it retails at 8$!
A glass of wine is minimum 16$ now as well as a cocktail
 
Well, lunch with my brother was pretty expensive and the suggested tips calculations on the check started at 22%, 25%, 27%.

When we came in, we were the second table to be seated. After us, approximately 10 or 12 tables were seated. Everyone was served and had checks before our lunch was served. I flagged him down twice, both times I was told our order was up next.

He got a tip, more than I should have done. And a heck of a lot more than he deserved.
 
Well, lunch with my brother was pretty expensive and the suggested tips calculations on the check started at 22%, 25%, 27%.

When we came in, we were the second table to be seated. After us, approximately 10 or 12 tables were seated. Everyone was served and had checks before our lunch was served. I flagged him down twice, both times I was told our order was up next.

He got a tip, more than I should have done. And a heck of a lot more than he deserved.
… this is bordering the stuff I never liked being in the service industry. If said server put the order in when you ordered it, it could’ve been true that it was next in line on the kitchen monitor and/or there was some other hold up beyond the servers control. I don’t get your ranting about other food coming out first otherwise, because he’d have nothing to do with it. He’s not making the food.

An aside here, but a possible equivalent would be in the hospital with a difficult patient and/or family pushing the call light every 2 minutes and starting to get mad because the nurse in fact has other patients that need attention, too, and can’t react within 30 seconds every time. Or a patient that needs X med and keeps asking for it, doesn’t realize the nurse cannot magically create medicine orders, and gets mad at said nurse for external factors (the doctors not being reached quickly or updating orders fast enough).

But the servers always have to take the wrath of every other problem happening, including seating rotation, customers that take longer than others, ask many questions, etc that may slow them down elsewhere. Splitting the check 12 different ways used to be so common in my serving days, and it can take FOREVER to run all of those cards and/or get exact change for everyone. I don’t blame restaurants that put a cap on the amount of ways it could be split.

I used to work in a shitty chain restaurant at Ohio State’s campus as my very first serving job. They had a super popular late night happy hour. After they cut the staff down from 8 or 9 to 4 servers, no food runners, often no host, etc, we’d all get slammed with 7 or 8 tables within a short span of time and run our asses off the entire rest of the night. Day after day. Labor costs trickle down to all of these other things people whine about when it comes to the ‘server’.

I also don’t understand why anyone in general can’t just hit ‘custom tip’ and put whatever they feel like putting without it being a whole moral ordeal. Servers may get pissed being under-appreciated and/or having external issues that make customers mad at them, but if you’re giving something reasonable they aren’t going to bark your head off for giving 17% instead of 22 or whatever, I promise.
 
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I agree about just hitting custom tip and entering the amount I want @tony. The math is simple enough if you do 20%. But I think the situation above would annoy me as well, because it sounded like they were the first ones to arrive, and every one of the other tables came in after and they not only had their food but also their checks before @once_upon’s table even had their food. Seems like something went wrong somewhere there, whether or not it was the server.
 
… this is bordering the stuff I never liked being in the service industry. If said server put the order in when you ordered it, it could’ve been true that it was next in line on the kitchen monitor and/or there was some other hold up beyond the servers control. I don’t get your ranting about other food coming out first otherwise, because he’d have nothing to do with it. He’s not making the food.
I usually don't get too bent out of shape regarding timeliness, unless I tell the server I am on a very short timeline. But it was 90 minutes. I would have been more understanding or felt like a valued customer if something had been taken like the appetizer.

If I wasn't with my brother and that I recommended the restaurant as a very good one, I would have had a glass of wine and chilled. It never occured to me that the appointment my brother had at 1:45 would be a problem with a lunch time of 11:30.

I don't usually notice if people are being served before me. It was very noticeable because we were 2nd table in and nearly last one out.

The server also looked elsewhere when I tried to get his attention to get an idea of what was going on. Don't ignore me, just acknowledge I'm there.

There was plenty of staff. All of the diners were seated in one side of the restaurant and no one was sitting outdoors. (I did go to the restroom and had full visibility of the entire restaurant).

My issue about suggested tipping on the bill is general idea that one begins at a 18%. Since 2021 or so, I've tipped 20% or more. In fact this guy got 19%. The receipt suggested 22% or higher.

This meal for three of us - 3 lunch menu items, 1 appetizer and 3 ice teas including tip was $100. Yes if I cant afford it, I shouldn't go out. But I can and I do.

However the check suggested tip calculation is done - kiosk or hand held device, or printed on the check - the owner or corporation controls that listing. To me as a consumer, it is offensive. I'm sorry if you think I don't value servers - I do. It feels like the establishment doesn't a) value me and b) more importantly value doesn't value the employer.

I started this thread because of a news story on tipping, that story had questions posed to several groups of people.

I get you were a server (bartender) and tips were important and necessary to live where you do.

I've had crap jobs too before health care career. People do want to be appreciated, so do customers.
 
I wasn't there, so I'm not going to comment on @once_upon's situation. But I think we've all been in a situation with a shitty server and you can tell it's the server. Like when you try to flag them down and they deliberately look away, they never come back to check on you once they take your order, or they disappear in the back entire time, etc.

A good server will come to check and will give an indication of what is going on. Like "I'm so sorry, your X takes longer than a typical order/got dropped and had to be remade/whatever" or "we are slammed in the kitchen."

I'm not sure I would leave a 19% tip, though. TOO MUCH MATH. 🤣
 
in 2 days every Old Market restaurant will be reservations only or a 2 hour wait to get seated. Heck a lot of restaurants in Omaha will have long waits to get a table.

Every server, bartender, Lyft driver, Uber driver, etc will have the opportunity to earn a boatload of tips over the next 16 days. 75th anniversary of CWS in Omaha will bring lots of visitors. Plus a new college who has never been to the CWS.

Yeah, I've had a waiter who the kitchen was feuding with - he was super attentive and apologizing - but you could tell it was kitchen.

A couple of weeks ago, we had been waiting a long time to be seated even with 1/2 of the tables were empty. When we got seated, the waitress apologized several times. They were short a cook. She didn't have to say, but it appeared the cook just walked off the job The regional manager came in.
 
Wild convo. I wonder if this is a generational thing? It's crazy how much entitlement there is, particularly in a post-COVID world. In my experience, anyone who has ever worked service industry/retail gets it.

I almost always click on Custom tip.
This is the way! 🫡
 

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