Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[alice73]

Entry removed

 

[overedge]

Not that I believe anything that Dave Lease says, but where a couple gets married is not really relevant to whether their relationship is genuine.

 

[floridaice]

Probably not the place for this, but I'm getting tired of so much speculation. None of us have any idea about their relationship, but it does not appear to be similar to the others.

N/M's wedding was not in secret, or a mere months after meeting. The engagement & wedding were public knowledge and it was discussed on FSU and other forums.

Link to wedding info: https://www.neset-markelov.wedding/

Are you saying Neset and Markelov committed immigration fraud?

I posted the first quoted message in the Skate American Free Dance thread yesterday -- in response to a post insinuating all 3 of the young married couples from WASA had committed immigration fraud. I have no connection to Neset or Markelov, but their wedding seems to be the real thing. None of us know anything about them or their relationship.

 

[alice73]

Not that I believe anything that Dave Lease says, but where a couple gets married is not really relevant to whether their relationship is genuine.

I’m guessing you’re responding to my comment. I’ve since removed the comment but I’ll respond to you. Their wedding is real and so is their relationship. But I obviously can’t convince anyone who’s suspicious of it to begin with.

 

[Rukia]

I mean technically all the weddings were real. They are legally binding contracts .

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Just because people are really in love doesn’t mean they will get married as teenagers. Many things can be true at the same time.

I had friends who got married many months earlier than they were planning for health insurance reasons. They are really in love and really married, but they still wouldn’t have gotten married exactly then if that weren’t a concern.

No one knows all the factors that go into such a decision.

 

[Lanja]

Not that I believe anything that Dave Lease says, but where a couple gets married is not really relevant to whether their relationship is genuine.

No, but some countries have a list of red flags that they use to determine whether a marriage between a citizen and non-citizen is genuine or not. In Norway, that’s how long the parties knew each other before the wedding, whether a bride price or dowry was paid, where and when the wedding was held, how many guests attended, and who they were (parents, siblings, extended family…). If you think of Desyatov's release fee as a bride price and consider that they got married after knowing each other for maybe 6 months and then kept it secret for 2+ years, it does not look good from the Norwegian government's standpoint. Which of course is irrelevant given that they live in the US, but I just wanted to add another perspective.

 

[kwanfan1818]

All countries that care have a list of red flags. How and to whom they apply and the impetus behind them differs.

The US is a land of immigrants and has treated the issue differently than many other countries that are not. Canada, too, and the stated goal of spousal immigration is first-off to support the Canadian citizen spouse, not the state.

 

[rfisher]

No, but some countries have a list of red flags that they use to determine whether a marriage between a citizen and non-citizen is genuine or not. In Norway, that’s how long the parties knew each other before the wedding, whether a bride price or dowry was paid, where and when the wedding was held, how many guests attended, and who they were (parents, siblings, extended family…). If you think of Desyatov's release fee as a bride price and consider that they got married after knowing each other for maybe 6 months and then kept it secret for 2+ years, it does not look good from the Norwegian government's standpoint. Which of course is irrelevant given that they live in the US, but I just wanted to add another perspective.

Just curious because I'm curious about other cultures, what about arranged marriages? Apparently, they are becoming more popular in the US (I know at least 2 people who used a professional marriage broker). They don't actually know each other very long prior to the marriage and often use a civil ceremony with no guests except a couple of witnesses. Is this becoming a practice in Norway?

 

[Prancer]

Not that I believe anything that Dave Lease says, but where a couple gets married is not really relevant to whether their relationship is genuine.

Is he complaining about courthouse weddings or something?

I am licensed to perform marriages in my state and all that is required is that both parties and an officiant sign the license in one another's presence. There is no requirement for vows, witnesses, guests, or anything else. I know someone who charges $50 to sign as officiant and that's ALL he does for that price. Most people want basic vows (for $100 and up, he'll do that), but not everyone does.

I got married in a mayor's office--it took less than five minutes from walking in to walking out, even with what passed as vows.

Just because people are really in love doesn’t mean they will get married as teenagers. Many things can be true at the same time.

I had friends who got married many months earlier than they were planning for health insurance reasons. They are really in love and really married, but they still wouldn’t have gotten married exactly then if that weren’t a concern.

I know a couple who got married for immigration purposes in grad school; it was straight up fraud and pretty publicly so. But in Hallmark movie fashion, they got interested in one another during the logistics process, were flirting madly by the date of the marriage, and have now been together quite happily for more than 20 years.

 

[Trillian]

When it comes down to it, I would guess a lot of us in this conversation have pretty pragmatic perspectives on both marriage and U.S. immigration law, understanding that marriage is a legal agreement that people can enter into for a lot of reasons, and the U.S. immigration system isn’t such a flawless apparatus that we need to be getting particularly precious about it. I don’t sense a lot of moral judgment along those lines happening here.

But it’s one thing to recognize all of that, and another thing to recognize that a group of young people could all end up in various kinds of trouble that could have a significant impact on their futures because people in positions of power either didn’t provide appropriate guidance or outright coerced them.

This really has nothing to do with how anyone thinks marriage or immigration “should” work, and everything to do with the fact that power dynamics in figure skating are inherently exploitative to the young athletes involved.

 

[Prancer]

But it’s one thing to recognize all of that, and another thing to recognize that a group of young people could all end up in various kinds of trouble that could have a significant impact on their futures because people in positions of power either didn’t provide appropriate guidance or outright coerced them.

Or didn't. It could be that the skaters themselves thought this was a good idea and did it on their own. Let's say that Neset and Markelov got married for real and told the others about the sped-up green card process. It might have seemed like a good idea. I mean, this doesn't look like a well-thought-out plan.

 

[jlai]

I personally can see a person leaving Russia and want to evade draft by immigrating to a new country through a business marriage. I get that. I wish the situation it weren’t happening with 18 year olds and at the same training center. That part is weird.

 

[Trillian]

Or didn't. It could be that the skaters themselves thought this was a good idea and did it on their own. Let's say that Neset and Markelov got married for real and told the others about the sped-up green card process. It might have seemed like a good idea. I mean, this doesn't look like a well-thought-out plan.

I would be inclined to think that’s likely if N&M had gotten married first (I don’t doubt their relationship is real). But the two other teams got married first, and Isabella Flores strikes me as unlikely to hide something like that on social media unless she felt it was something to hide for whatever reason.

Maybe the teenagers really did engineer the whole thing and no adults involved were even aware. But just knowing the dynamics of figure skating, that strikes me as a less likely answer.

 

[MacMadame]

It could just be that one couple did it and that inspired the rest to follow suit (which happens), but I am willing to put a whole lot of money down on immigration fraud.

I would too. Though I have to say, we've all seen those stories about kids where they do things like make a pregnancy pact in High School and now all the girls in a friend group are pregnant. So having one get married and the rest following suit isn't completely out of the question.

 

[canbelto]

I would too. Though I have to say, we've all seen those stories about kids where they do things like make a pregnancy pact in High School and now all the girls in a friend group are pregnant. So having one get married and the rest following suit isn't completely out of the question.

That happened at an alternative transfer high school I worked at. So many of the students were pregnant or mothers that when girls went to the school, they said they felt left out if they weren't pregnant or mothers. We even had a few girls who faked pregnancies. Like they had the baby bump, brought in ultrasounds, had baby showers, and we later on found out that they had faked the entire pregnancy. They admitted they craved the attention pregnant girls got and wanted that experience.

 

[peibeck]

I don't know any of the players, but I'm curious if they are all either related or in a community with close cultural ties? There are many reasons for marriage at a young age and some of the are cultural. But, again, unless a skater says "I was forced to marry X" there is nothing inherently illegal by getting married.

Although I don't believe everything is kosher with what is happening in the WASA camp, I do agree that @rfisher has made an extremely valid point. Colorado Springs has a reputation/history of religious conservatism and has many evangelicals living there. It's decreased as the Springs population has dramatically increased in the last two decades, but it still definitely has a hold there. And within the (relatively small) group of evangelicals I know, getting married at 18 isn't out of the norm.

Just something else for y'all to argue about.

 

[overedge]

Is he complaining about courthouse weddings or something?

I was referencing @alice73 comment about Dave lumping one couple who are allegedly really in love, and had a church wedding, with couples who allegedly are not in love but got married anyway.

 

[Prancer]

And within the (relatively small) group of evangelicals I know, getting married at 18 isn't out of the norm.

It is definitely an aspect of fundamentalist/ultra conservative/evangelical communities.

 

[Willin]

Although I don't believe everything is kosher with what is happening in the WASA camp, I do agree that @rfisher has made an extremely valid point. Colorado Springs has a reputation/history of religious conservatism and has many evangelicals living there. It's decreased as the Springs population has dramatically increased in the last two decades, but it still definitely has a hold there. And within the (relatively small) group of evangelicals I know, getting married at 18 isn't out of the norm.

Just something else for y'all to argue about.

I thought this was a huge part of the Neset/Markelov relationship? I thought I saw somewhere that they bonded over their religion... But their marriage and story is a whole lot more believable than the other two.

 

[Tangoer]

Somebody mentioned you cannot rely on memories from 11 years ago. While science does show that memory is faulty over time, SafeSport and OSIC do not suspend people on their word alone, and look at evidence that dates back to the time of the event. So to even insinuate that the accused is innocent because memories are faulty or no more people filed a report that you’re aware of, is really problematic.

 

[Vagabond]

I thought this was a huge part of the Neset/Markelov relationship? I thought I saw somewhere that they bonded over their religion.

Russian Orthodoxy?

There have been several posts suggesting that the wives might be evangelical Christians, but the chances are remote that the husbands are.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Russian Orthodoxy is a conservative church. There are people in Seattle who seek out conservative evangelical congregations and various Christian Orthodox congregations because they either don’t like the officiant of their own faith’s chirch or they think that church is too liberal.

People have been known to bring their friends, especially newcomers, to their own congregations, and sometimes it’s a match. Also, being in a more socially liberal sport, art, school, organization, etc. can make very religious people bond over it, because, even though the overall community is conservative, like in Colorado Springs, their “job” community isn’t necessarily so. Faith can be a strong bond.

 

[barbk]

Russian Orthodoxy is a conservative church. There are people in Seattle who seek out conservative evangelical congregations and various Christian Orthodox congregations because they either don’t like the officiant of their own faith’s chirch or they think that church is too liberal.

People have been known to bring their friends, especially newcomers, to their own congregations, and sometimes it’s a match. Also, being in a more socially liberal sport, art, school, organization, etc. can make very religious people bond over it, because, even though the overall community is conservative, like in Colorado Springs, their “job” community isn’t necessarily so. Faith can be a strong bond.

Back in the mid-80s I spent a lot of evenings watching elite practices at the old World Arena on the Broadmoor campus. This was when Focus on the Family was huge, and headquartered in the Springs. Overall, the city was pretty conservative back then, but it didn't particularly feel that way with the skaters/families at the Broadmoor. Maybe that has changed. Certainly, the city is way less conservative than it was back then.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Overall, the city was pretty conservative back then, but it didn't particularly feel that way with the skaters/families at the Broadmoor.

Which could make very religious people among them stick together.

 

[Vagabond]

Which could make very religious people among them stick together.

Unless someone can post a link to something substantive, this is wild speculation.

We don’t know how religious any of the people involved are. We do know that a Russian emigrant coach recruited three young Russian men to come to America to do ice dance, that at least one of the men came from desperate circumstances, that all three wound up marrying their young American partners not long after meeting them, and that two of the couples kept silent about their marriages even though they were active on social media.

As much as I would like to believe that love is in the air at that rink, the details that we do know suggest otherwise.

 

[canbelto]

Russians in general tend to be very conservative politically and socially, and the Orthodox church even more so. The imported male ice dancers would fit right at home in a conservative, religious community in Colorado Springs. Which perhaps was part of the attractions when they were recruited.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Willin raised having heard that religion was a bond between Neset and Markelov, and you questioned that possibility, because he is presumably Russian Orthodox, and it is unlikely that she was/is.

There are very plausible situations in which a Russian Orthodox person and an evangelical Christian could bond over religion, especially in a professional and/or social milieu that is more liberal and/or secular. I think your objection to this being a possibility is too literal.

Neset/Markelov have been repeatedly cited as having the real marriage, as opposed to the other two couple-teams. Rumors that they married secretly several years ago, similarly to Flores/Destyanov, are unsubstantiated.

 

[Sylvia]

Here's what Terry Gannon said on the E! cable network (part of NBC Universal) before the start of the FD broadcast on Sunday (re. the reason why Fabbri/Ayer and Morozov/Chen were replacement teams at Skate America):
"As skaters are on the ice warming up for the free dance, need to tell you two dance teams originally set to compete here had to be replaced for disciplinary reasons. Back on Oct. 2nd, Canadian skater Nikolaj Soerensen was suspended for at least 6 years for sexual maltreatment and, on Friday, the U.S. Center for SafeSport issued a temporary suspension against Ivan Desyatov, pending an investigation into allegations of misconduct."

 

[Wyliefan]

Although it seems pretty clear from social media that Neset's family is religious, we don't know much more than that, and I'd caution against trying to construct a narrative around it. Remember when fans built up a whole theory about Kaiya Ruiter being anti-vax and not being able to compete because of it, and then it turned out it was because she was seriously injured instead?