Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[Allskate]

So what? Is there a single sport in or out of the Olympics that hasn't awarded titles to someone "mediocre" because the "better" athletes got sick or tripped or made a silly mistake or just didn't do their best on the day?

Plus, in Olympic team sports, there usually are weaker players on the team that get a medal. It's the nature of team sports.

if they didn’t dope themselves they got their points fair and square.

Part of what probably factors into how much empathy people have is that "if." Given the role that coaches and others besides Valieva likely played here and given the history of doping at a systemic level in Russia, that's a very big "if."

And, really, even if I were to assume that everyone else on the team never doped, I'd still think the medal should be stripped in order to provide the necessary deterrent. Russia clearly cares about the team medal, which makes it all the more important to enforce doping rules. Maybe if the powers that be hadn't given the Russians slaps on the wrist before, Valieva's teammates wouldn't be in this position.

 

[Vagabond]

There’s a case to be made for not penalizing the other Russian skaters.

No other Russian skater is being subjected to a four-year ban.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I'm curious as to any sustained efforts that the Israeli Ice Skating Federation as led by "Papa Boris" has managed to make in strides towards being competitive for team medals.

I think the qualification for the teams even is more a question of prestige for the officials than for the skaters. For Papa Borya it was likely an attempt to get more attention and possibly funding from the Israeli sports ministery, which failed spectacularly. Given it's been some 15 years since the Israeli federation got back to some full time functioning, and yet out of dozens of Israeli kids there's only one who is currently competing in seniors, and she's not even going to be at the major competitions, I really couldn't have cared less whether the Israeli team qualifies again. And yeah, Amy Buchanan

Talking about second tier Americans.

And talking about second tier Russians, let's take a long look at the Georgian team and ask ourselves whether this event really contributes anything to the development of the sport. Again, other that allowing some spotlight for the lucky ones who happened to be from a strong federation which allows them to piggyride on the top athletes.

So yeah, it allowed some really bad skaters to be called "Olympians" and some very mediocre ones "Olympic medalists". Meh.

 

[Allskate]

No other Russian skater is being subjected to a four-year ban.

After all the appeals are over and done with, they may not get a medal. There are people who would consider that "penalizing." Some people think that medal doesn't have much value. But, others do, and that probably includes Valieva's teammates.

So yeah, it allowed some really bad skaters to be called "Olympians" and some very mediocre ones "Olympic medalists". Meh.

Like Valieva? She didn't win an individual medal but wants to get that team medal. (I do hope she isn't drowning her sorrows in Grandpa's cake and beverages today. TBH, though, I do have some sympathy for her.)

I really, really hope that Vincent gets his team medal. He did everything he could think of not to get COVID (and certainly didn't dope), and ended up not being able to compete in the individual event and not getting his team medal.

 

[Vagabond]

After all the appeals are over and done with, they may not get a medal. There are people who would consider that "penalizing." Some people think that medal doesn't have much value. But, others do, and that probably includes Valieva's teammates.

It's all a matter of how one characterizes things, innit?

 

[Allskate]

It's all a matter of how one characterizes things, innit?

Sure, but context matters. I'm pretty sure that @PRlady was not under the impression that Valieva's teammates are being banned for four years, which is how your response seemed to construe her comment.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Plus, in Olympic team sports, there usually are weaker players on the team that get a medal. It's the nature of team sports.

Yeah, but figure skating is not a team sport. That's the point. It doesn't become one just because you sum up some numbers from across the different disciplines.

But it doesn't have a lot to do with this topic.

And, really, even if I were to assume that everyone else on the team never doped, I'd still think the medal should be stripped in order to provide the necessary deterrent. Russia clearly cares about the team medal, which makes it all the more important to enforce doping rules. Maybe if the powers that be hadn't given the Russians slaps on the wrist before, Valieva's teammates wouldn't be in this position.

Russia cares more for the team event, it's definitely true. It plays well into their general approach of making state propaganda out of sports.

But there are a couple of things here. I would separate doping in figure skating in Russia from doping in figure skating in a specific group. Doping in general in figure skating is very rare because it's a high risk with very questionable benefits. For the incubator which is Tutberidze's group it makes sense, but even during the mass state sponsored doping scheme in 2014, the skaters were left out of it. So it kind of rubs me a bit the wrong way that now every Russian figure skater is automatically assumed to be a cheater, "figure skater" in this case is a much more significant factor than "Russian".

And while again, in the terms of medals and fairness and whatnot I will accept every outcome, Sadovski and all, but I do have more empathy for Mozalev and co rather than for Sadovski and co. It's one thing to have something and lose it due to no fault of your own, and another to initially lose and then see an opportunity to get it due to some reason which, let's be frank, didn't really affect the performance either way of anyone at that event. Fair - yes; punishment - yes; but I reserve the right of being sympathetic on the personal level the way I choose.

 

[Karen-W]

@Andrey aka Pushkin - Mozalev wasn't the men's entry for Russia in the TE - it was Mark Kondratiuk.

 

[Allskate]

@Andrey aka Pushkin - Mozalev wasn't the men's entry for Russia in the TE - it was Mark Kondratiuk.

And why should @Andrey aka Pushkin have any empathy for him if he is such a "mediocre skater" and it was the team event?

 

[VGThuy]

https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/dalniyles/3218467.html This works well with google translate if you don't read Russian.



It was virtually impossible for her to prove lack of intent which was the basis for the ruling. The only way to have done that would be for someone to publicly announce they'd slipped her the drug without her consent. To my knowledge, that was never done. At 15 she should never have been interviewed without her parent or guardian or lawyer present. Ever. In the US, that alone would be sufficient to get a criminal charge dismissed. There were so many missed steps made by a lot of people and unfortunately, Kamila is the one to pay the price.

I think it’s pretty well established. Now that when it comes to drug cases and sport, that wants, there’s a positive test result and you don’t take any other procedures that could wipe away that result with a another sample then the burden is on the athlete, who tested positive to prove their innocence. so it is not like the US criminal justice system where the burden approve is on the prosecution and the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Here the burden is on the positive test subject. It is a high standard for sure, but it is not one that singles out any particular athlete, but rather it is For all the athletes who want to compete in international sport. Just like the Jessica Calalang case where she had to prove it was from her mascara. It took a lot of time and effort, and probably money on her part to prove it. As for Valieva, being a minor, I think she actually was represented by officials and because of the way, Russia works. She just trusted the officials to be her representative and allowed all this to happen.

To me, the latter is why minors probably shouldn’t compete an Olympic level sport. They are playing by adult rules and you cannot have one standard for one class of athlete and another standard for another class of athlete especially when they competing against each other and there needs to be fair play.

ETA: please forgive the funky typing. I have to use speech to text at the moment, and I am sure the post is a little bit coherent.

 

[Vagabond]

Sure, but context matters. I'm pretty sure that @PRlady was not under the impression that Valieva's teammates are being banned for four years, which is how your response seemed to construe her comment.

But losing a medal for which you were ineligible for in the first place isn't really a penalty. And the team included an ineligible skater.

A penalty is a punishment for doing something wrong, e.g., being banned for doping.

 

[overedge]

The athlete is supposed to be responsible for whatever goes into (or onto) their body. Obviously there are cases like Calalang's where they didn't know that a substance they were using would result in a positive test. And at Eteri's rink the athletes probably don't have a lot of choice as to what medications or substances they're given, or expected to take. But seeing as how this is not a court case, with criminal charges, I don't see a problem with Valieva being interviewed on her own.

 

[Frau Muller]

Well. I’m not surprised. Valieva ‘s ban at this moment would make no difference in World standings.

So pass out the correct Team medals ASAP!

 

[tony]

The athlete is supposed to be responsible for whatever goes into (or onto) their body. Obviously there are cases like Calalang's where they didn't know that a substance they were using would result in a positive test. And at Eteri's rink the athletes probably don't have a lot of choice as to what medications or substances they're given, or expected to take. But seeing as how this is not a court case, with criminal charges, I don't see a problem with Valieva being interviewed on her own.

This is such a wildly different view than the loads of people who claim even 18 year olds are still kids, and the people who still insist that skaters into their 20s should be withdrawn from competitions by their coaches because they maybe can’t make the best decisions yet.

Valieva was 15. I have sympathy for that, and I have sympathy for the way those around her most likely coached her to handle it, from the reaction at the Olympics backstage to the story about the grandpa.

Anyways, some of us have debated for the last 2 years whether her result would be nullified and everyone moved up, or they would just keep that position vacant a la Tonya Harding. In the instances cited recently, results have always moved up.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

And why should @Andrey aka Pushkin have any empathy for him if he is such a "mediocre skater" and it was the team event?

Because having something taken is much harder than not having this something at all. Mediocre or not. And I don't have a reason to wish ill upon Kondratiuk (or Mozalev for that matter).

My beef with the teams event is not that a specific result is fair or not, but rather that this event shouldn't exist at all. Not in this format anyway.

 

[Allskate]

But losing a medal for which you were ineligible for in the first place isn't really a penalty. And the team included an ineligible skater.

A penalty is a punishment for doing something wrong, e.g., being banned for doping.

Your hyper-technical definition of "penalizing" really isn't relevant and is a deflection from the point. You know what @PRlady meant. You know what I meant. All the Russian members in the team event probably will be stripped of their medals because of Valieva's doping. Call it whatever you want. IMO, they should be stripped of their medals. Others will think otherwise.

 

[rfisher]

I think it’s pretty well established. Now that when it comes to drug cases and sport, that wants, there’s a positive test result and you don’t take any other procedures that could wipe away that result with a another sample then the burden is on the Ashley, who tested positive to prove their innocence. so it is not like the US criminal justice system where the burden approve is on the prosecution and the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Here the burden is on the positive test subject. It is a high standard for sure, but it is not one that singles out any particular athlete, but rather it is For all the athletes who want to compete in international sport. Just like the Jessica Calalang case where she had to prove it was from her mascara. It took a lot of time and effort, and probably money on her part to prove it. As for Val Ava, being a minor, I think she actually was represented by officials and because of the way, Russia works. She just trusted the officials to be her representative and allowed all this to happen.

My understanding from reading the report is the decision was made not on the positive sample per se, but her inability to prove beyond a doubt it was unintentional. If she had been able to do so, the ban would have been much less. That was the reason for the extreme ban. Other athletes received much less harsh penalties for a first offense and some even for 2nd or 3rd. That was impossible by the time this went to court. She could present evidence of a parent/GP having the prescription, but there's no way to prove she didn't deliberately take the medication or to prove that she did for that matter. So, they went with the no proof therefore you're banned. The only proof she could have offered two years after the fact was if another party said they gave her the meds and she was unaware and did not consent. Her lawyers should have known that and probably did but they really couldn't do anything when she, in all the confusion, said it was in her grandfather's drink. They couldn't dispute that nor could they prove it was. It was gone. She should not have said anything at all and should have had adult legal representation who would have told her exactly that. You would never let a client say something like that. Again the only way out of this for her was if someone said I did it and she didn't know. The athlete is held responsible even if they don't know something which is a whole set of different problems.

 

[VGThuy]

This is such a wildly different view than the loads of people who claim even 18 year olds are still kids, and the people who still insist that skaters into their 20s should be withdrawn from competitions by their coaches because they maybe can’t make the best decisions yet.

Valieva was 15. I have sympathy for that, and I have sympathy for the way those around her most likely coached her to handle it, from the reaction at the Olympics backstage to the story about the grandpa.

You can still hold his view as an ideal to argue for policy changes while still recognizing the current policies as they are have this philosophy and procedure that is supposed to state that the athlete, no matter how old they are, are ultimately responsible for the drug test results. If anything, this just shows how vulnerable minors are in current situation.

 

[VGThuy]

My understanding from reading the report is the decision was made not on the positive sample per se, but her inability to prove beyond a doubt it was unintentional. That was impossible by the time this went to court. She could present evidence of a parent/GP having the prescription, but there's no way to prove she didn't deliberately take the medication or to prove that she did for that matter. So, they went with the no proof therefore you're banned. The only proof she could have offered two years after the fact was if another party said they gave her the meds and she was unaware and did not consent. Her lawyers should have known that and probably did but they really couldn't do anything when she, in all the confusion, said it was in her grandfather's drink. They couldn't dispute that nor could they prove it was. It was gone. She should not have said anything at all and should have had adult legal representation who would have told her exactly that. You would never let a client say something like that. Again the only way out of this for her was if someone said I did it and she didn't know. The athlete is held responsible even if they don't know something which is a whole set of different problems.

I am pretty sure she presented evidence the initial hearing that wasn’t her favor with Russia. She had two years to collect evidence, gather testimony, collect witnesses, etc. These procedures are not new, and every athlete knows these procedures. The fact that she is a minor just shows that maybe we should be thinking might just competing with adults when they are drug procedures, to be followed.

 

[Rukia]

This is such a wildly different view than the loads of people who claim even 18 year olds are still kids, and the people who still insist that skaters into their 20s should be withdrawn from competitions by their coaches because they maybe can’t make the best decisions yet.

I was going to make a joke about them being post-minors but then I realized most this board probably has never had to read proship/antiship wank and wouldn't understand my psychic damage but anyway people make this argument about completely fictional fake people too so I'm not too surprised at that kind of logic around here at times.

 

[Allskate]

Valieva was 15. I have sympathy for that, and I have sympathy for the way those around her most likely coached her to handle it, from the reaction at the Olympics backstage to the story about the grandpa.

That's why I have some sympathy for her. (And sympathy for grandpa, who is a pawn in all of this, though they probably are both being compensated in some way.) But, even if she had no choice or didn't even know what she was taking (which would make her more sympathetic), I would think the need for deterrence was even greater. It creates an incentive for family members, coaches, federations, etc. to comply with the rules. Of course, there would be a greater incentive if the coaches and federations paid a big price.

 

[rfisher]

I am pretty sure she presented evidence the initial hearing that wasn’t her favor with Russia. She had two years to collect evidence, gather testimony, collect witnesses, etc. These procedures are not new, and every athlete knows these procedures. The fact that she is a minor just shows that maybe we should be thinking might just competing with adults when they are drug procedures, to be followed.

We'll never know what she did as part of the appeal as that is not in the report and will not be released. But, I don't know how you can either prove intent or disprove intent in this case, so they went with the failure to prove.

 

[VGThuy]

We'll never know what she did as part of the appeal as that is not in the report and will not be released. But, I don't know how you can either prove intent or disprove intent in this case, so they went with the failure to prove.

Through testimony and presenting credible evidence that can show she ate or consumed something that was tainted without her knowledge. Basically, the inverse of what the prosecution has to do to prove beyond a visible doubt that somebody committed a crime. Like I said earlier, in these cases, the burden is on the person who tested positive and not on the drug testers.

 

[barbk]

We'll never know what she did as part of the appeal as that is not in the report and will not be released. But, I don't know how you can either prove intent or disprove intent in this case, so they went with the failure to prove.

I thought the examples from other rulings posted a few weeks ago clarified that quite a bit. The athlete has the responsibility to demonstrate that it was more likely than not an accidental ingestion under circumstances where the athlete was taking appropriate caution, and even so, a penalty is typically applied -- it seemed to be about half the regular penalty in most cases.

 

[Karen-W]

Phil Hersh has a really interesting take on this during the video chat he did with Dave Lease and Maya B - he is blown away by the severity of the ban. He won't speculate on why but he is stating that it is unusual and the reasoned decision will shed more light on this once it is released by CAS.

 

[rfisher]

One could come up with any number of conspiracy theories and there are a lot of them out there on social media. Given it's Russia, some may well be valid, but it's done and she pays the cost regardless of who gave it to her or even if it was an accident. Note to self, don't hire that Swiss firm as your legal counsel. Or maybe as the blog link I posted, their hands were tied. We'll never know.

 

[Allskate]

He won't speculate on why but he is stating that it is unusual and the reasoned decision will shed more light on this once it is released by CAS.

He won't speculate. But, I will. Unless they weren't going to ban her at all or were going to ban her for only a month, the penalty isn't going to have much impact since she can't compete internationally now anyway. So, they make it look harsh and like they are taking doping seriously without having much impact on Valieva. Of course, we wouldn't see that explanation in the reasoned decision. (I assume Phil doesn't know what's in that decision.)

 

[Coco]

On a tangent, the team event would be more interesting and competitive if each country got to drop their lowest scoring discipline both for qualifying and the competition itself.

Back to the topic: No progress has been made on the issue of doped minors, imo, since 2000.

The protected person status is meh. If anything, it creates an incentive to dope minors and put minors on a team instead of adults.

They need to make a rule that no minor will be penalized for doping unless their coach or federation is penalized as well. Give these coaches or federations an incentive to have clean athletes.

Doping sucks, but so does strict liability.

This is a harsh penalty given the facts. I was thinking it would be 6 months to 2 years, somewhere in that time frame. Perhaps it is harsh because of Russia's track record on doping and not anything specific to Valieva?

ETA: Russia was arrogant to not use their substitutions and now it has come back to bite them.

 

[Vagabond]

Your hyper-technical definition of "penalizing" really isn't relevant and is a deflection from the point. You know what @PRlady meant. You know what I meant. All the Russian members in the team event probably will be stripped of their medals because of Valieva's doping. Call it whatever you want. IMO, they should be stripped of their medals. Others will think otherwise.

If anyone has been penalized its athletes who weren't on the Russian squad for the Olympic Team Event (the Americans, the Japanese, the Canadians, Hendrickx, Tuktamysheva, Scherbakova, and Trusova, not that I feel especially sympathetic to the last one or two on that list).

 

[overedge]

The only proof she could have offered two years after the fact was if another party said they gave her the meds and she was unaware and did not consent. Her lawyers should have known that and probably did but they really couldn't do anything when she, in all the confusion, said it was in her grandfather's drink.

Given the extreme control that her coach and her federation exert over their athletes, I would be very surprised indeed if Valieva came up with the "grandpa's drink" story on her own. IMO it sounds like something that she would be told in advance to say.