The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[thvu]

Now this is a spicy take, say more please.

They probably should have won Worlds in 2009…

Well, first on DomShabs, their OD was a racist disaster. Their components should have been in the toilet. What “folk” dance was this supposed to be? You could also clearly see the effects of his injury in the OD. I’d have to watch to get back specifics, but I just remember sluggishness, a lack of sharpness in all their movements. Same for the FD. The GOE they were getting were clearly "Reigning World Champ" rep GOE. They got so many +3s for mediocre lifts. They shouldn't have medalled at all. First in the CD, but then 6th in the OD and FD.

Davis & White should have placed 7th in the CD (and arguably as low as 10th). That CD was a total mess. I don't even know where to begin, but you could see the political push in this segment alone. Wobbly edges, sloppy turns, and generally sloppy presentation. They had speed, but that's about it. Their OD was cool, but most of the program was generic. I didn't get how it was so close to V&M. Same for the FD, except there wasn't an ounce of "cool". I generally didn't like how Igor just gave them a modified Morozov style - they're just running on flats. I don't necessarily have an issue with them placing above B&A in the OD and FD (with not as big a margin), but they should have been sooooooo far behind in the CD that it didn't matter.

On 2009 Worlds, that's one of the events I never rewatch. All around, the programs that season were terrible. The only one I liked was Delobel & Schoenfelder's FD, but of course she got pregnant and they wouldn't re-emerge until the 2010 Olys (and as shells of their former selves as ice dancers). So, I honestly don't remember. It's like I try to blot this event from my memory.

 

[kwanfan1818]

They shouldn't have medalled at all. First in the CD, but then 6th in the OD and FD.

And Faiella/Scali wuzrobbed at 2010 Euros. Yes, Domnina/Shabalin should have won the CD -- they were all that -- but Faiella/Scali's margins in the OD and FD did not reflect the reality of their relative skating in Tallinn. D/S were weak, especially live.

On 2009 Worlds, that's one of the events I never rewatch. All around, the programs that season were terrible. The only one I liked was Delobel & Schoenfelder's FD, but of course she got pregnant and they wouldn't re-emerge until the 2010 Olys (and as shells of their former selves as ice dancers).

Delobel/Schoenfelder's FD for the first half of the 2008-9 season was great. What killed their season was the injury she suffered in the gala at GPF, which they won. It was while she was recovering from that injury that she became pregnant.

 

[guignardfabbri]

I wonder if Delobel & Schoenfelder would have been real contenders for the gold or atleast the silver in Vancouver without her fluke injury at the GPF and subsequent pregnancy? They looked likely to defend their world title in 2009 before that so would have been going into the Olympics with some serious momentum. I am pretty sure they would have defended their world title in retrospect too. Domnina & Shabalin won with subpar performances inferior to their 2007 and 2008 performances, and DelScho had easily beaten them at the Grand Prix final right before. Then again DelScho probably never win their world title in 2008 without Domnina & Shabalin WDing so it was a like a trade off.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I wonder if Delobel & Schoenfelder would have been real contenders for the gold or atleast the silver in Vancouver without her fluke injury at the GPF and subsequent pregnancy? They looked likely to defend their world title in 2009 before that so would have been going into the Olympics with some serious momentum. I am pretty sure they would have defended their world title in retrospect too. Domnina & Shabalin won with subpar performances inferior to their 2007 and 2008 performances, and DelScho had easily beaten them at the Grand Prix final right before. Then again DelScho probably never win their world title in 2008 without Domnina & Shabalin WDing so it was a like a trade off.

2007-10 was such an unusual quad for ice dance. 3 different D/S World Champions and VM winning the 2010 OGM and Worlds. The DomShabs declined because of Shabalin's knee issues, the DelSchoes were setback back by Delobel's pregnancy. Virtue was almost derailed by her serious injury but V&M managed to win the OGM without first being World Champs. And what would have happened if the DenStavs had stayed in for the whole 4 years?

 

[kwanfan1818]

At 2008 Worlds, Virtue/Moir edged out Delobel/Schoenfelder in the Free Dance (on TES), and it looked like they could overtake D/S in the 2008-9 season. Then Virtue had another battle with compartment syndrome and V/M didn't compete until Can Nats and then 4C's, but V/M were not at their best at 2009 championships for understandable reasons.

Between Delobel's, Virtue's, and Shabalin's injuries and Delobel's pregnancy, there was a lot of churn at the top in that Olympic cycle, including Belbin/Agosto being only the second returnees to fail to remake the podium, after Fusar-Poli/Margoglio in 2002 (bronze) and 2006 (6th).

 

[VGThuy]

On top of what @kwanfan1818 said, that quad started out so unpredictable as GPF, Euros AND 4CC, and Worlds results in one season could have different champions in each one. Then in 2009-10, it became kind of predictable by the Vancouver Olympics OD even with the CD results and the prior GPF results. But I do think Virtue/Moir was one of the most obviously deserved wins ever in ice dance Olympic competition history.

 

[Dobre]

I didn't see the Olympic CDs live, but I did see Belbin & Agosto's and Davis & White's compulsories live at Nationals in 2010; and I agree that B&A's were better.

 

[kwanfan1818]

It the cycle where the skaters that started under 6.0 and the emerging medalists and champions who had at least skated in juniors under the early forms of IJS competed against each other at the highest levels. And while dancers could still continue into their 30's, it was no longer a job requirement to be older to win Olympic and World medals in ID.

 

[VGThuy]

It the cycle where the skaters that started under 6.0 and the emerging medalists and champions who had at least skated in juniors under the early forms of IJS competed against each other at the highest levels. And while dancers could still continue into their 30's, it was no longer a job requirement to be older to win Olympic and World medals in ID.

Do you think things have sort of returned to that state now that we have had IJS for like 18 seasons now? Maybe 19 if we count 03-04 Fall Season and non-championship comps.

 

[thvu]

Delobel/Schoenfelder's FD for the first half of the 2008-9 season was great. What killed their season was the injury she suffered in the gala at GPF, which they won. It was while she was recovering from that injury that she became pregnant.

I had forgotten all about Delobel's injury. Not that I think she (or we) should regret her pregnancy, but it would have been great to see them contend for 2010 Oly Gold. A battle between them and V&M, oldschool vs new, edge depth vs sharpness - what could have been...

 

[kwanfan1818]

I had forgotten all about Delobel's injury. Not that I think she (or we) should regret her pregnancy, but it would have been great to see them contend for 2010 Oly Gold. A battle between them and V&M, oldschool vs new, edge depth vs sharpness - what could have been...

I don't know if this was confirmed or was speculation, but she was on birth control, and antibiotics have been known to impact its efficacy. She or he or their team confirmed at the time that it wasn't a planned pregnancy -- yikes, that child would be a teen by now -- and wouldn't have happened without the injury.

 

[thvu]

@kwanfan1818 it doesn't even feel like it's been over a decade since that season. I don't know how time works anymore.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Do you think things have sort of returned to that state now that we have had IJS for like 18 seasons now? Maybe 19 if we count 03-04 Fall Season and non-championship comps.

I have no data, but my sense is that there was a clear shift, with older teams understanding that the writing was on the wall and a different system to at least try to follow*, but once they cleared out voluntarily or by being surpassed, there were a glut of younger teams that were in the pipeline. I know there were lots of micro-reasons why the youngs Shibs were able to win bronze in 2011 and then struggled to get back on the podium again, but the only Worlds or Olympic medalists from 2010 on who didn't mostly come up in the new system were Faella/Scali and Pechalat/Bourzat.

*ETA: In real life, one of my friend who was of retirement age but could have stayed in his job another five years left it, because they asked him to learn another computer program that, from its reputation, was worse than the one they were using. He's now in Europe taking courses and hanging out at cafes. At some point, it's not worth squeezing your life into another box.

 

[sap5]

And Faiella/Scali wuzrobbed at 2010 Euros. Yes, Domnina/Shabalin should have won the CD -- they were all that -- but Faiella/Scali's margins in the OD and FD did not reflect the reality of their relative skating in Tallinn. D/S were weak, especially live.



Delobel/Schoenfelder's FD for the first half of the 2008-9 season was great. What killed their season was the injury she suffered in the gala at GPF, which they won. It was while she was recovering from that injury that she became pregnant.

I'll always remember how DelShoes and V/M both did Great Gig in the Sky that year, but they competed on different halves of the season so we didn't get to see them at the same time.

 

[sap5]

I didn't see the Olympic CDs live, but I did see Belbin & Agosto's and Davis & White's compulsories live at Nationals in 2010; and I agree that B&A's were better.

This is one of the things that made me sad about B/A. Their skating was definitely improving, but by the time they moved, it was too late. If only they had moved earlier, or Liz Coates never left. I wonder what would have happened....

 

[VGThuy]

This is one of the things that made me sad about B/A. Their skating was definitely improving, but by the time they moved, it was too late. If only they had moved earlier, or Liz Coates never left. I wonder what would have happened....

When did Liz Coates leave? I remember Ben Agosto talking about during the first years of his partnership with Tanith, they spent most of the time learning to stroke with Coates.

 

[Bigbird]

I think that it is a bad move on their part. They had great choreos so far but Zhulin is circling the drain, creatively speaking.

But politically he gets the scores. He gets the scores. When I rewatched SK's last two FDs, it was embarrassing. They may have some glide and somewhat elegant arms, but their artistry is limited one note and their postures especially her in lifts, are poor and the material relatively uncomplicated compared to anything done by the IAM school. Katsalapov on top of that has poor spin technique but they were always given the scores. Always. What are they left to do?

 

[Peepsquick]

But politically he gets the scores. He gets the scores. When I rewatched SK's last two FDs, it was embarrassing. They may have some glide and somewhat elegant arms, but their artistry is limited one note and their postures especially her in lifts, are poor and the material relatively uncomplicated compared to anything done by the IAM school. Katsalapov on top of that has poor spin technique but they were always given the scores. Always. What are they left to do?

I just think that S/B have always had the IT factor thanks to a combination of looks and bold choreographies. They might lose that with Zhulin and his influence might be waning too ...

 

[litenkyckling]

I just think that S/B have always had the IT factor thanks to a combination of looks and bold choreographies. They might lose that with Zhulin and his influence might be waning too ...

But remember their principle choreographer is Ivan’s partner and mother of his child - I doubt she’d say no if they wanted her to choreo for them

 

[Peepsquick]

But remember their principle choreographer is Ivan’s partner and mother of his child - I doubt she’d say no if they wanted her to choreo for them

Was she the one doing their choreos so far?

 

[happycamper2554]

Was she the one doing their choreos so far?

She has not been choreographing for them for a while I believe it has been Zhuk and averbuch mainly at least for this past quad.

 

[Peepsquick]

She has not been choreographing for them for a while I believe it has been Zhuk and averbuch mainly at least for this past quad.

I honestly think that they were doing a tremendous job of giving them choreographies that fitted their energy.
This said, they might have come to a point where they felt they needed a change.

 

[sap5]

When did Liz Coates leave? I remember Ben Agosto talking about during the first years of his partnership with Tanith, they spent most of the time learning to stroke with Coates.

I want to say she had left by the time B/A had become seniors, but maybe someone has more specific information?

 

[Debbie S]

I want to say she had left by the time B/A had become seniors, but maybe someone has more specific information?

I think it was 2001, not sure.

 

[Andora]

I honestly think that they were doing a tremendous job of giving them choreographies that fitted their energy.
This said, they might have come to a point where they felt they needed a change.

I'm definitely mourning the loss of S&B's enjoyable programs with their move to Zhulin.

 

[VGThuy]

One saving grace is that Bukin seems to have some natural rhythm and ability to dance to a beat and move his body like a dancer in some aspects. Nikita and Vika did not have that and that Irish jig to Rachmaninov where they hunched their shoulders was embarrassing to watch.

 

[Dobre]

Regarding Stepanova & Bukin . . .

My feelings & expectations are tempered. I don't know if or when we will see them again in international competition. I have doubts about it happening at any time before Russia pulls out of Ukraine or a peace agreement is signed.

But at the moment, I'll set the unknown aside and give my thoughts on S/B if they should return to international competition this season. If we do see them in the near future and S/K really are done (which I think they are), S/B will be #1 for Russia; and it would be folly to think they can't be competitive. (Zhulin or not). However, S&B have taken a season off. Not just internationally, but really off. They also missed the competition this year, and while I think there are early basic training reasons that would/will hold quality Russian skaters in good stead upon a return, I also think this was a big year for the dance teams trying to climb up to be competitive with the current top 3. I think this was a bad year to be off--for S/B, and at the end of the season for Hawayek/Baker & Wang/Liu.

Any climb that could have happened for S/B hasn't happened. Meanwhile, you've got teams that were in that fight all season making that move. Winning a dance here or a dance there. Snagging an upset when a top team wasn't ready. Scoring within a point or two of a team on the podium. Earning the seeding positions that might help teams grab opportune GPs next season. Earning the Worlds placements that will increase teams' PCS and GOE the next time they go out on the ice. Also, I don't know what the political outcome will be for Russian athletes. Their position may very well not be as strong as it once was. In dance, it is both naive to believe every political complaint and naive to believe that politics has no impact on results. For certain, there won't be any home GP with huge Rostelecom marks.

What this leaves me with is middle ground when it comes to expectations. (I had high hopes, you know. I thought this last year would be a great season for this relatively young team with more experience than the athletes below them. That they would push the field, get that big Russian #1 ranking bump, pass a few teams, and by doing so, probably clear the field somewhat at the top for this quadrennium). Now, I don't feel that way. If I were a Fear & Gibson, Hawayek & Baker, or Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen fan, I would take any return by Stepanova & Bukin quite seriously. Those teams have never defeated S&B and should expect to have a fight on their hands there. If I were one of the three teams on the podium, though, I just wouldn't worry about it. I'd set my career goals for the quadrennium and the season and then let the team that skipped a whole year try to catch up.

----

*Zhulin, I would just as soon not see again. His quotes about Nazarova & Nikitin seem to me the type of thing that should send one into the dungeons of no-one-needs-to-hear-from-you-ever-again-in-skating society.

 

[On My Own]

Are we going to discuss wtt here?

 

[skatingguy]

Are we going to discuss wtt here?

This is the dance thread - World Team Trophy thread is here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2023-world-team-trophy-april-13-16-tokyo-japan.110525/

 

[Sylvia]

Are we going to discuss wtt here?

@SHARPIE has opened up the Kiss & Cry section now (until July 1, IIRC) so we’ll have competition play-by-play threads for WTT in the K&C 2022-23 sub forum.