ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[PRlady]

I can’t think how many non-Russian skaters have used Firebird (Gracie’s egg comes to mind.) I know that a “neutral” Russian skater skating to Russian music now would appear to be sending a message in the way that Soho Lee’s Nutcracker does not. But I’m not sure it would be possible or desirable to try to dictate their program content.

Thus the easiest as well as right thing to do is keep them out entirely.

 

[VGThuy]

Mao Asada also used to skate to "Masquerade Waltz", does that make her Russian as well

Not to make light of this serious conversation or to take a “side”, but was that when Mao was “Tarasova-fied”?

 

[On My Own]

Not to make light of this serious conversation or to take a “side”, but was that when Mao was “Tarasova-fied”?

Yes. TAT tat'd Mao from 2008 to 2014.

 

[SkateGuard]

The current ban of all Russian and Belarussian athletes across sports is not about anything to do with figure skating or with doping.

Agreed, but it is certainly reminiscent of the time they arrested Al Capone for tax evasion because they weren't able to come up with enough evidence to arrest him for his earlier crimes:

How the Law Finally Caught Al Capone

archives.fbi.gov

 

[Yuri]

This exchange reminds me of a running joke on the original Star Trek when Chekov would claim that Russia invented or was the first to do all this stuff that it was well-known that other countries had invented/done first.

OK you caught me channeling Mr. Chekov! My university roommate was a huge fan of the original Star Trek--he revered Mr. Spock--but as you can see from a compilation of Mr. Chekov's greatest hits (for the youngsters), everything truly important was inwented in Russia!

But you gotta admit--even if they didn't inwent the word, the Russians truly raised propaganda to an art form!

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As I have posted, I am not in favor of anti-Russian governments using their athletes as pawns to boycott an Olympics any more than I am opposed to Putin using his athletes to promote Russia. I think tennis star Victoria Azarenka of Belarus got it right at the Australian Open press conference after her semi-finals loss. What do you expect athletes to do about the Russian-Ukraine war?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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I will concede that Valieva came off as totally clueless in her post today about being thrilled to win the Olympics team gold!

 

[Vagabond]

Years from now, we will hear Valieva explain how she was  forced to be clueless.

 

[Dobre]

I think both can be true at the same time.

airgelaal is correct that there would likely be Russian athletes--and more directly Russian choreographers--that would plan programs specifically to make political statements of some kind. (We are the victims. Russia is strong. Etc.) It's a trend in Russian choreography to make dramatic statements, and the choreo tends to dramatize the modern tragedy as well as to use those great composers of the past.

And others above are correct that you can't ban music. Athletes can use those great Russian composers to make strong statements for or against war, for or against peace, to retell old stories, to tell new ones, to stun us all with brilliance, or to bore us all to tears.

I don't know if skating audiences would be loudly negative in response to Russian athletes or programs. But skating audiences can be very tough on athletes by withholding their applause, refusing to stand for great performances, walking out before athletes compete, etc. And negative reactions to scores.

---

Another thing I've been thinking about recently is that it's hard to know how much the drug test at the Olympics has influenced fan reaction in this particular sport versus what might be the fan reaction in other sports. I feel like it took a long while to get to the point we are at today. I mean, what happened in Sochi was awful; but most of us wanted to see the Russian athletes compete, even after learning about it. Not all the Russian athletes, but not none of them either. For me, Beijing felt like the last straw. Like opportunity after opportunity had been given, and there we were at the big event (the ladies singles)--the crown jewel of the games--and it was ruined because the Russian Fed had been given too many opportunities and not been stopped.

I'm with Vasiljevs. I can't believe the IOC is even thinking about having this conversation until after Russia takes major steps to improve its own behavior & actions. The IOC shouldn't be initiating the change. Russia should have to do it by getting out of Ukraine & via full disclosure of all the info WADA wanted. (I realize I'm dragging this extra issue in, but I just assume this may feel different to fans of sports that haven't experienced issues the way skating has. And it's probably worse for fans of track & field or other sports where a state-sponsored drug program has such a huge impact on results).

 

[Dobre]

I'll add that it's not exactly that I don't want to see the Russian athletes compete. I elected not to watch Russian Nationals this year, and I considered it a sacrifice. I would have liked to see Aliev skate during a good season or see Drozd with his new partner or to see the top Russian pairs teams or Tuktamysheva. But not watching was one active choice I could actually make in support of Ukraine. Other people are making donations or helping refugees or making a myriad of other contributions. This was just something I could do. Something that would not support the advertisers or politicians trying to deliver their propaganda via Russian sport.

 

[greenapple]

As I have posted, I am not in favor of anti-Russian governments using their athletes as pawns to boycott an Olympics any more than I am opposed to Putin using his athletes to promote Russia. I think tennis star Victoria Azarenka of Belarus got it right at the Australian Open press conference after her semi-finals loss. What do you expect athletes to do about the Russian-Ukraine war?

Fortunately for the majority of the free world, people like you are in the minority. All hail the "anti-Russian governments" who are opposed to subjecting their athletes to having to compete against ANY Russians while this inhumane war rages.

I will concede that Valieva came off as totally clueless in her post today about being thrilled to win the Olympics team gold!

How generous of you. But really, who cares.

 

[MsZem]

Could Macron/whoever announce that athletes/coaches from Russia and Belarus will not be allowed into France for Paris 2024 unless hostilities end? What's the IOC going to do, take away the games?

I realize this would not be a great precedent, but it's not like sports aren't politicized already.

 

[Marta24]

The Nordic Olympic Committees oppose a participation of Russian and Belarusian athletes at the Olympics.

Olympics-Nordic countries jointly oppose Russian, Belarusian sports participation

The Nordic Olympic Committees wrote to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) on Tuesday to reiterate their opposition to Russian and Belarusian athletes being allowed to take part in international sports.

www.reuters.com

 

[On My Own]

I really wish the Olympics weren't based on countries fielding athletes. I think it would be much better if we could see athletes not be representing any country, representing only themselves, not having a national anthem playing at the end, not having a country-wise medal tally. It would need to be reworked for team sports, but I think this would go a long way in making sure countries like Russia can't use their athletes for propaganda.

 

[misskarne]

I really wish the Olympics weren't based on countries fielding athletes. I think it would be much better if we could see athletes not be representing any country, representing only themselves, not having a national anthem playing at the end, not having a country-wise medal tally. It would need to be reworked for team sports, but I think this would go a long way in making sure countries like Russia can't use their athletes for propaganda.

All that would happen then would be that some sports would be flooded by athletes from one or two countries and the nationalism would continue. It's naive to think anything else would happen, especially if the anthem/flag is still displayed for winning.

Formula One has twenty drivers, who all drive for ten teams, not their own countries. Yet nationalism is strong. The world feed broadcast is nigh-unbearable on occasion with its British driver bias. People are hooting and hollering in excitement because there's an American driver this year. The Dutch have gone crazy now that they have a World Champion. Many Aussies are just as proud that it is our twentieth consecutive year with an Australian driver on the grid. In a sport that is all about sponsor money, companies, teams...the national pride still pours through every crevice it can find. You're absolutely dreaming if you think we could avoid that at the Olympics.

 

[greenapple]

The Mayor of Paris has changed her mind and does not want Russians competing at the 2024 Games. Article is here.
Hidalgo said "it is not possible to parade as if nothing had happened" while "the bombs continue to rain down on Ukraine".

She added that a neutral banner "doesn't really exist because sometimes there are athletes who are dissidents. They march and compete under the refugee banner".

"The neutral banner was a subject of doping and that was the choice they had made," she continued. "I am not in favour of that option. I would find that totally indecent."

 

[On My Own]

Awesome!!!

 

[MacMadame]

I will concede that Valieva came off as totally clueless in her post today about being thrilled to win the Olympics team gold!

Clueless? That was a calculated move on her part to get exactly the reaction it got. There are people clueless* here but it is NOT Valieva.

*I suspect "deliberately obtuse" is more accurate for some of you.

It would need to be reworked for team sports,

Teams could be made up of athletes from multiple countries.


Honestly, I think the Olympics should just stop. They are expensive to put on, they encourage Nationalism even though that is supposedly the opposite of their aim, and in most sports they become a goal that poisons the experience of individual athletes to the point that they dope, are abused, develop eating disorders, and a host of other problems.

 

[On My Own]

Honestly, I think the Olympics should just stop.

I think that would be ideal, but unfortunately there's a huge capitalist push behind athletes. We inherit what already exists, and someone decided a long time back we need to sink millions into sports so that someone can sell perfumes.

 

[Willin]

No, I think Valieva is completely clueless. They've constructed a nice, neat little bubble for her, treated her like a (propaganda) queen so she never wants to leave said bubble, and continue to maintain the bubble for her.

Really, I don't quite know what people are expecting a 15-year-old who's spent the last 5-6 years training 6+ hours/day six days a week with probably only basic schooling (if she cares to commit to it) to know. Especially when the people around her - including Putin - are telling her she's right and innocent and the evil west is conspiring to tear her down and incriminate her for political points. Add to that that she's back to her training bubble, stuck in Russia, and surrounded only by people and propaganda telling her she's a completely innocent victim. Of course she's clueless - she's probably heard very little to none of the West's side of the story beyond the snippets in her FS, and even those are framed in a way to make her the victim.

Yes, teenagers aren't naive, but they like any human are products of their environment and the information they receive from it.

 

[Primorskaya]

No, I think Valieva is completely clueless. They've constructed a nice, neat little bubble for her, treated her like a (propaganda) queen so she never wants to leave said bubble, and continue to maintain the bubble for her.

Really, I don't quite know what people are expecting a 15-year-old who's spent the last 5-6 years training 6+ hours/day six days a week with probably only basic schooling (if she cares to commit to it) to know. Especially when the people around her - including Putin - are telling her she's right and innocent and the evil west is conspiring to tear her down and incriminate her for political points. Add to that that she's back to her training bubble, stuck in Russia, and surrounded only by people and propaganda telling her she's a completely innocent victim. Of course she's clueless - she's probably heard very little to none of the West's side of the story beyond the snippets in her FS, and even those are framed in a way to make her the victim.

Yes, teenagers aren't naive, but they like any human are products of their environment and the information they receive from it.

I don't think she's totally innocent, there's an element of ego there, a positive reinforcement, "if I keep saying the right things I'm getting all this love and positive feedback" but otherwise I agree. She doesn't live in the same universe as us, and propaganda bubbles are real. Plus, if she dares to imagine the alternative (everything negative that has been said about her coach/team/country is true), her whole world falls apart so it's a pretty easy choice really. I think such things can be conscious and subconscious at the same time. Anyone can manage to convince themselves of their favourite version of an event, and edge the bits that don't fit the narrative out of their mind.
We might get to see what wins out in the long run. Confronting the niggling feeling that something's off, or doubling down on the convenient version.

 

[MacMadame]

Valieva is 16 now, btw. And knows the reaction her social media posts get as she has been posting on social media for a while. There is no way she didn't know this post would poke the bear with the people not happy with what went down in Beijing and get love from the people on her side.

 

[Trillian]

Honestly, I think the Olympics should just stop. They are expensive to put on, they encourage Nationalism even though that is supposedly the opposite of their aim, and in most sports they become a goal that poisons the experience of individual athletes to the point that they dope, are abused, develop eating disorders, and a host of other problems.

Can’t really say that I disagree with you, but I do wonder what that would mean for the future of some of the sports involved. Figure skating is one of the sports that really hasn’t figured out a way to build an audience without the Olympics. (I mean, there should be ways to do it, but nobody at a high level seems to understand how the internet works in the year 2023, so.) Skating is already almost too expensive to sustain itself, so what does it look like without that infusion of publicity every four years?

I suspect it would also be a rough transition for women athletes in general. The Olympics is one of the very, very few sporting events where women grab a lot of the headlines. Not to say there aren’t other drawbacks, but in general I could envision the TV/media sports landscape becoming even more male-dominated than it already is.

 

[gkelly]

Can’t really say that I disagree with you, but I do wonder what that would mean for the future of some of the sports involved. Figure skating is one of the sports that really hasn’t figured out a way to build an audience without the Olympics.

For which sports that do not involve balls is this not true?

 

[Trillian]

For which sports that do not involve balls is this not true?

Absolutely true, and that’s why I said “one of.” All but a few winter sports are potentially toast without the Olympics, and quite a few summer ones too. That may not be a strong enough argument for the continued existence of the Olympics, which has very few upsides apart from the occasional visibility it offers more marginalized sports and athletes. But I do think it’s worth noting in the context of a skating forum that if the Olympics went away, that would probably have a sizable impact on this sport and the ability of fans to watch it.

ETA: I guess hockey, which has pucks rather than balls? I always forget it exists until someone mentions it, but it does seem to have an audience apart from the Olympics.

 

[Vagabond]

Could Macron/whoever announce that athletes/coaches from Russia and Belarus will not be allowed into France for Paris 2024 unless hostilities end? What's the IOC going to do, take away the games?

I realize this would not be a great precedent, but it's not like sports aren't politicized already.

If memory serves, the U.S. has occasionally blocked athletes from such countries as Iran from competing on American soil. I don't see how the IOC can prevent France and its Schengen from denying entry visas to or Russians and Belarusians or the organizing committee from barring their participation.

What would the IOC do anyway? Move the "real" games to Moscow or some such place while the rest of the world competes at an "alternative" event in Paris?

 

[On My Own]

Figure skating is one of the sports that really hasn’t figured out a way to build an audience without the Olympics. (I mean, there should be ways to do it, but nobody at a high level seems to understand how the internet works in the year 2023, so.) Skating is already almost too expensive to sustain itself, so what does it look like without that infusion of publicity every four years?

Not sure why you think so? IMO, skating audience is pretty big if you consider social media like tik tok, there have been many viral videos on there, haven't there been? The real problem for the US at least is that your tickets seem to expensive, especially for nationals.

I don't really want to get into what actually flies on social media in the name of promotion and attractions for audience when it comes to skating or performance art of any kind though... I'd rather not want such a fanbase surrounding sports at all.

How does gymnastics do it?

 

[morqet]

If memory serves, the U.S. has occasionally blocked athletes from such countries as Iran from competing on American soil. I don't see how the IOC can prevent France and its Schengen from denying entry visas to or Russians and Belarusians or the organizing committee from barring their participation.

This is effectively what happened with Wimbledon last year. The LTA were strongly lent on by the UK government - they were told that the Government didn't want to be seen to be allowing Russian players into the country, or risk having the optics of having a member of the Royal Family presenting the trophy to a Russian player, so asked the tournament announce a ban.

Wimbledon then got screwed over by the ATP & LTA with a $2million fine for the ban, so if they wanted to maintain that position for next year, I expect Wimbledon would insist on the ban coming officially from the Government.

 

[Willin]

Valieva is 16 now, btw. And knows the reaction her social media posts get as she has been posting on social media for a while. There is no way she didn't know this post would poke the bear with the people not happy with what went down in Beijing and get love from the people on her side.

16 isn't universal. There's 16 year olds that work jobs and read the news and there's 16 year olds that still have everything done for them and believe everything the adults tell them.

I would also suspect that she does not entirely run her own social media account - most athletes and high profile people in general have someone helping out it. Since she's become a propaganda piece for the Russian government you can't convince me there's not someone from the Russian government involved in all her social media, even the ones supposedly banned in Russia.

And if she did post it? Well, that could just be a sign she's believing in all the lies she was fed in that bubble. Not that she's innocent because of that, but I could see her thinking it's a way to stick it to the people in the evil west who victimize her when she did nothing wrong.

 

[MacMadame]

ETA: I guess hockey, which has pucks rather than balls?

A puck is a ball that's been flattened.

16 isn't universal.

But it's not 15. People are freezing her in time when she's getting older.

 

[MsZem]

For which sports that do not involve balls is this not true?

Some of the snow sports seem pretty popular in a way that's separate from the Olympics.

 

[kalamalka]

Popularity varies from country to country. Curling and hockey are big in the general population in Canada. Nordic skiing in several countries in Europe. Alpine skiing in the alpine countries. There's lots of money for the freestyle skiing and snowboard event competitors (esp half pipe, big air, slopestyle - x-games events) that has little to do with their Olympic status.