ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[allezfred]

Most lady skaters struggle with jumps when puberty hits. It's not an Eteri problem.

“Struggle with jumps” - is that what we are calling career ending injuries now?

 

[reut]

Not sure whether you read the original one or google translate, but rhetoric it uses is arrogant, on the other hand it is also quite typical for russian press in general, so nothing new there. The journalist also continues this very popular ru narrative of "us against the world" and "nobody loves us because they envy us".

Using specific words and phrases he also, consciously, shows this image of poor russia which doesn't deserve all this. Some of the phrases he uses like "Не нужно быть гением, чтобы понять, что удар хотят нанести по России и Белоруссии." (you see all this is actually an evil-evil ISU that wants to launch a blow at russia and Belarus), "в мире все еще остается достаточное количество стран, сочувствующих России" ("there are enough of countries in the world that feel compassion towards russia"), "федерации, которые данное решение и продавили" ("federations that forced in this decision"), "в рамках ISU образовалась мощная коалиция явно недружественно настроенных к нам национальных федераций" ("powerful coalition of clearly unfriendly towards us federations").

He also hints that all this might happen because ISU is afraid to lose the case in CAS (I guess he means that one submitted by Tarasova/Morozov among others). And that not letting ru federation to participate in congress is absolutely not legal ("but still very possible") And he draws this picture of Nathalie Péchalat organising talks during Worlds behind ISU's back to "cancel" russia. In general the tone he uses shows this pictures of intrigues against ru fed and Gorshkov personally to lose his influence and that all the changes congress will agree upon will clearly be directed against ru interests.

And only after all that he comes to the conclusion: "а настолько ли сильно нужен вообще ISU?" Is ISU even needed? (btw he doesn't say "do we need ISU", he states it in general, for the whole world, as in "ISU without ru is useless"). And then continues with the idea of their own federation and their own events.

 

[Nadya]

“Struggle with jumps” - is that what we are calling career ending injuries now?

Call it what you wish but jump struggles at puberty are common. It's also common to leave the sport - at least its competitive segment - by twenty.

 

[Nadya]

Not sure whether you read the original one or google translate, but rhetoric it uses is arrogant, on the other hand it is also quite typical for russian press in general, so nothing new there. The journalist also continues this very popular ru narrative of "us against the world" and "nobody loves us because they envy us".

Using specific words and phrases he also, consciously, shows this image of poor russia which doesn't deserve all this. Some of the phrases he uses like "Не нужно быть гением, чтобы понять, что удар хотят нанести по России и Белоруссии." (you see all this is actually an evil-evil ISU that wants to launch a blow at russia and Belarus), "в мире все еще остается достаточное количество стран, сочувствующих России" ("there are enough of countries in the world that feel compassion towards russia"), "федерации, которые данное решение и продавили" ("federations that forced in this decision"), "в рамках ISU образовалась мощная коалиция явно недружественно настроенных к нам национальных федераций" ("powerful coalition of clearly unfriendly towards us federations").

He also hints that all this might happen because ISU is afraid to lose the case in CAS (I guess he means that one submitted by Tarasova/Morozov among others). And that not letting ru federation to participate in congress is absolutely not legal ("but still very possible") And he draws this picture of Nathalie Péchalat organising talks during Worlds behind ISU's back to "cancel" russia. In general the tone he uses shows this pictures of intrigues against ru fed and Gorshkov personally to lose his influence and that all the changes congress will agree upon will clearly be directed against ru interests.

And only after all that he comes to the conclusion: "а настолько ли сильно нужен вообще ISU?" Is ISU even needed? (btw he doesn't say "do we need ISU", he states it in general, for the whole world, as in "ISU without ru is useless"). And then continues with the idea of their own federation and their own events.

The fact of the matter is that Russia will be cut off from official international competitions for a number of years. This is a foregone conclusion. It is also a fact that there is nothing - not a single thing - that anyone in the Russian skating community can do to address the underlying cause of their exclusion.

With these facts on hand, what is left for them to do? The best with what they have. The alternative is to let the sport go. That's not a productive avenue, and no one would argue it's better for the sport or for the athletes. Seen through this lens, a domestic federation or series of competitions is not a bad idea. They certainly have enough skaters, resources and interest to continue. Again, the alternative is to let the sport die. What would you have them do?

 

[allezfred]

Call it what you wish but jump struggles at puberty are common. It's also common to leave the sport - at least its competitive segment - by twenty.

Except Eteri's girls barely make it to 18. Without them at Worlds this year, our gold and silver medallists were 22 and neither of them are retiring yet. The fourth place finisher is almost 26 and I presume well past puberty.

 

[Nadya]

Except Eteri's girls barely make it to 18. Without them at Worlds this year, our gold and silver medallists were 22 and neither of them are retiring yet. The fourth place finisher is almost 26 and I presume well past puberty.

Don't blame the player, blame the game. Ban quads for the ladies or don't reward them but don't blame the athletes for going after the highest score.

 

[reut]

The fact of the matter is that Russia will be cut off from official international competitions for a number of years. This is a foregone conclusion. It is also a fact that there is nothing - not a single thing - that anyone in the Russian skating community can do to address the underlying cause of their exclusion.

With these facts on hand, what is left for them to do? The best with what they have. The alternative is to let the sport go. That's not a productive avenue, and no one would argue it's better for the sport or for the athletes. Seen through this lens, a domestic federation or series of competitions is not a bad idea. They certainly have enough skaters, resources and interest to continue. Again, the alternative is to let the sport die. What would you have them do?

You claimed that the article wasn't arrogant and even wondered how it can be seen as one. I explained.
As for "what is left for them to do? what could they do?" etc. Well, I have an answer to that but some people here continue with the narrative of "hapless pawns" (direct quote from ru thread), so I prefer not to waste my time.

 

[Bigbird]

Most lady skaters struggle with jumps when puberty hits. It's not an Eteri problem.

But can they continue to improve and learn new jumps like Liza? It's just that her jumps and Plushenko's and Costner just seem so secure in comparison.

 

[Nadya]

You claimed that the article wasn't arrogant and even wondered how it can be seen as one. I explained.
As for "what is left for them to do? what could they do?" etc. Well, I have an answer to that but some people here continue with the narrative of "hapless pawns" (direct quote from ru thread), so I prefer not to waste my time.

I didn't read it as arrogant and I stand by my opinion.

I think there is a whole world of skating that's far removed from the "hapless pawns" conversation, and that world still has to wake up every day and put its pants on.

 

[Nadya]

But can they continue to improve and learn new jumps like Liza? It's just that her jumps and Plushenko's and Costner just seem so secure in comparison.

Be honest. Do you think Costner and Plushenko are outliers or typical skaters?

I've posted my view of the problem above. Ban quads for the ladies and the Eteri problem goes away. They are responding to a very unhealthy set of incentives that the system has set up for them.

 

[reut]

and I stand by my opinion.

Oh, that I noticed.

 

[PRlady]

Be honest. Do you think Costner and Plushenko are outliers or typical skaters?

I've posted my view of the problem above. Ban quads for the ladies and the Eteri problem goes away. They are responding to a very unhealthy set of incentives that the system has set up for them.

I’m not in favor of banning any legitimate sports accomplishments and quads for ladies are that. Raising the age limit to 17 for seniors means that very few skaters can delay puberty that long, so they will have to jump quads with woman’s’ bodies. It will still favor the short and thin but it was ever thus, physics is physics. But dehydrating 14-year-olds for competition at least will no longer be as big a problem.

I’m fine with banning quads in competition at the junior level for both boys and girls.

 

[Bigbird]

Wondering out loud what the next season holds.

 

[Nadya]

I’m not in favor of banning any legitimate sports accomplishments and quads for ladies are that. Raising the age limit to 17 for seniors means that very few skaters can delay puberty that long, so they will have to jump quads with woman’s’ bodies. It will still favor the short and thin but it was ever thus, physics is physics. But dehydrating 14-year-olds for competition at least will no longer be as big a problem.

I’m fine with banning quads in competition at the junior level for both boys and girls.

There is a discussion to be had that some sports accomplishments, legitimate though they can be, are simply too harmful for human bodies, developing or developed, and so should not be encouraged or rewarded.

It's meaningless to ban quads for juniors without banning or dis-incentivizing them for seniors. You and I both know that to jump quads at 17, one needs to start learning them much earlier so you aren't really saving children's bodies from the beating of the quads. You are simply saying, feel free to jump at practice but not at competition.

 

[clairecloutier]

Be honest. Do you think Costner and Plushenko are outliers or typical skaters?

I've posted my view of the problem above. Ban quads for the ladies and the Eteri problem goes away. They are responding to a very unhealthy set of incentives that the system has set up for them.

The Eteri problem, or domination of women's skating, started before quads. But yes, it's a response (an extreme response) to an unhealthy set of incentives inherent in the judging system. The incentives can be changed, but the political will to do so must exist, and did not exist between 2014-22 (how this relates to the political situation within the ISU can be inferred).

It's meaningless to ban quads for juniors without banning or dis-incentivizing them for seniors. You and I both know that to jump quads at 17, one needs to start learning them much earlier so you aren't really saving children's bodies from the beating of the quads. You are simply saying, feel free to jump at practice but not at competition.

This, I don't necessarily agree with. There is a big difference in how jumps are trained for use in competition versus for development. When jumps are intended for competition, the repetitions to achieve consistency have to be much higher. Just as an example, there were female skaters in the 1980s, such as Tiffany Chin, who landed triple Axels in practice, but never put them in competition because the numbers (reps)/consistency weren't high enough, and also the reward in competition wasn't necessarily seen as worth the reps needed. This would arguably be the case if quads were not permitted in juniors. They would be done experimentally and to learn the rotational feel but not with nearly the intensity (reps) and injury potential that they are done now. (ETA: Of course, a ban on quads in juniors + relative deincentivizaton [but still allowance] of quads in seniors would have the most effect.)

But, I'd rather keep this thread focused on the political/governance situation between RUS and the ISU, anyway. The "Eteri issue", or quads in women's figure skating, has been discussed in many other threads.

With regard to the Match TV article, I find it interesting that the writer considers it would be a major blow for Russia not to have representation on the ISU Council. Most ISU countries, of course, are NOT represented on the six-person figure skating side of the Council.

 

[Nadya]

The Eteri problem, or domination of women's skating, started before quads. But yes, it's a response (an extreme response) to an unhealthy set of incentives inherent in the judging system. The incentives can be changed, but the political will to do so must exist, and did not exist between 2014-22 (how this relates to the political situation within the ISU can be inferred).





This, I don't necessarily agree with. There is a big difference in how jumps are trained for use in competition versus for development. When jumps are intended for competition, the repetitions to achieve consistency have to be much higher. Just as an example, there were female skaters in the 1980s, such as Tiffany Chin, who landed triple Axels in practice, but never put them in competition because the numbers (reps)/consistency weren't high enough, and also the reward in competition wasn't necessarily seen as worth the reps needed. This would arguably be the case if quads were not permitted in juniors. They would be done experimentally and to learn the rotational feel but not with nearly the intensity (reps) and injury potential that they are done now. (ETA: Of course, a ban on quads in juniors + relative deincentivizaton [but still allowance] of quads in seniors would have the most effect.)

But, I'd rather keep this thread focused on the political/governance situation between RUS and the ISU, anyway. The "Eteri issue", or quads in women's figure skating, has been discussed in many other threads.

With regard to the Match TV article, I find it interesting that the writer considers it would be a major blow for Russia not to have representation on the ISU Council. Most ISU countries, of course, are NOT represented on the six-person figure skating side of the Council.

Current political climate aside, I feel like the Russian skating fed has shown considerable pragmatism throughout; i.e. they respond to the incentives that are put in front of them. So I really think that if the rules are changed, with or without their input, they'd apply themselves to studying the rulebook with a magnifying glass, and devise a strategy that charts a course to the podium regardless. I mean look at all the weird jump entry/exit tricks; ugly as sin but bringin' in the points. And previously, backloading the programs - again, artistically weird and improper, but maximizing the points. That's the sort of pragmatism I mean.

 

[Karen-W]

I'm really curious which feds Gorshkov thinks are sympathetic enough to participate in competitions held by this "rival international fed" he is proposing. We all saw how quickly support withered away 19 years ago when a rival to the ISU tried to organize in the wake of the SLC judging scandal and subsequent revelations. For all the sympathy expressed in private, when the rubber hit the mat and the IOC stuck by the ISU, no one was willing to lose out on the Olympics for their own skaters. I think Gorshkov is going to find himself in a very lonely place, for all the blustery talk he's making about forming a rival international federation.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Georgia, Hong Kong, Hungary, Israel, Kazakhstan, Mexico, Philippines, Romania, Turkey... each of those countries sent athletes to Worlds or Jr Worlds - think they're going to endanger participation at future ISU Championships by sending skaters to Gorshkov's events?

I dunno, maybe China would...

 

[Nadya]

Not sure whether you read the original one or google translate, but rhetoric it uses is arrogant, on the other hand it is also quite typical for russian press in general, so nothing new there. The journalist also continues this very popular ru narrative of "us against the world" and "nobody loves us because they envy us".

Using specific words and phrases he also, consciously, shows this image of poor russia which doesn't deserve all this. Some of the phrases he uses like "Не нужно быть гением, чтобы понять, что удар хотят нанести по России и Белоруссии." (you see all this is actually an evil-evil ISU that wants to launch a blow at russia and Belarus).

He is not wrong that the language about "the countries that are destabilizing the world" in the new proposed clause is directed at Russia and Belarus, as it is being discussed specifically in the context of the war in Ukraine.

"In general the tone he uses shows this pictures of intrigues against ru fed and Gorshkov personally to lose his influence and that all the changes congress will agree upon will clearly be directed against ru interests."

The new language ISU wants to vote on IS directed against Russia & Belarus, quite explicitly so. You may argue whether it's warranted or not, but the target of these moves is not a secret.

I mean we can always wait and see until some other country destabilizes some other place (cough cough), and see if ISU will feel just as sanctiony toward that country. But that remains to be seen, and I for one am perfectly happy to never ever have another reason to test it.

 

[airgelaal]

Not sure whether you read the original one or google translate, but rhetoric it uses is arrogant, on the other hand it is also quite typical for russian press in general, so nothing new there. The journalist also continues this very popular ru narrative of "us against the world" and "nobody loves us because they envy us".

Actually, it's nothing new. This is what officials, athletes and fans have been saying for years. It’s even hard for me to remember the Olympic Games, where the Russian figure skaters were not “robbed of a medal”.

 

[reut]

"In general the tone he uses shows this pictures of intrigues against ru fed and Gorshkov personally to lose his influence and that all the changes congress will agree upon will clearly be directed against ru interests."

The new language ISU wants to vote on IS directed against Russia & Belarus, quite explicitly so. You may argue whether it's warranted or not, but the target of these moves is not a secret.

Nope. Paragraphs where he talks about Gorshkov and russia losing its influence, that part in my answer you quoted, have nothing to do with war in Ukraine.

 

[reut]

Actually, it's nothing new. This is what officials, athletes and fans have been saying for years. It’s even hard for me to remember the Olympic Games, where the Russian figure skaters were not “robbed of a medal”.

Yes, this is literally what I wrote there, "nothing new".
Arrogant and superior tone is nothing new in ru sports media. It's either "we won, go f... yourself", or "we should have won, but we were robbed".

 

[airgelaal]

Yes, this is literally what I wrote there, "nothing new".
Arrogant and superior tone is nothing new in ru sports media. It's either "we won, go f... yourself", or "we should have won, but we were robbed".

Not only in the media. Media only reflects everything that coaches and athletes are talking about.
I never paid much attention, but skaters and coaches from other countries also talk about “stolen” medals?

 

[Nadya]

Nope. Paragraphs where he talks about Gorshkov and russia losing its influence, that part in my answer you quoted, have nothing to do with war in Ukraine.

Do you think the language of the new rule is directed against Russia, without saying that it is? Or do you think that it is a new global rule applicable to everyone?

 

[allezfred]

If it is an ISU rule, it is applicable to all ISU members. The invasion of Ukraine has hastened its proposed addition. There is no doubt that Russia is currently contributing to the destabilisation of the world. It has caused a humanitarian crisis in Europe. This is no time to have a country like that being able to compete in sport in a business as usual way.

 

[Nadya]

If it is an ISU rule, it is applicable to all ISU members. The invasion of Ukraine has hastened its proposed addition. There is no doubt that Russia is currently contributing to the destabilisation of the world. It has caused a humanitarian crisis in Europe. This is no time to have a country like that being able to compete in sport in a business as usual way.

Hastened or caused?

Anyway, it sounds like you agree with Gorshkov - this rule is targeting Russia. Except that you think it is quite appropriate, and he disagrees.

 

[allezfred]

It sounds like you agree with Gorshkov - this rule is targeting Russia. Except that you think it is quite appropriate, and he disagrees.

He also thinks his federation's athletes showing up to a pro-war rally is not political so.....

 

[airgelaal]

It sounds like you agree with Gorshkov - this rule is targeting Russia. Except that you think it is quite appropriate, and he disagrees.

If Russia had not started the war, no one would have opposed Russia. Don't deliberately confuse cause and effect.

 

[reut]

Do you think the language of the new rule is directed against Russia, without saying that it is? Or do you think that it is a new global rule applicable to everyone?

Paragraph I mentioned (and you quoted) has nothing to do with the war and "the rule" you're talking about. Do read the article.

 

[Nadya]

If Russia had not started the war, no one would have opposed Russia. Don't deliberately confuse cause and effect.

Actually I made no comment as to how appropriate it is to target Russia. It may or may not be but that's not the point. The point is that this rule IS targeting Russia.

 

[Nadya]

Nope. Paragraphs where he talks about Gorshkov and russia losing its influence, that part in my answer you quoted, have nothing to do with war in Ukraine.

Your answer included bits and pieces from different paragraphs of the article. Here is the paragraph of the article I meant:

"На текущий момент мы имеем следующее — «Матч ТВ» стало известно, что ISU намерен серьезно ужесточить санкции против России и Белоруссии. Они разослали национальным федерациям письмо с объявлением о намерении изменить собственную конституцию, а если быть точнее — поправить правило № 104. В него хотят добавить новый, 17-й параграф, в котором идет речь о специальных «защитных мерах», дающих совету право приостанавливать членство национальных федераций и/или накладывать ограничения иного рода, будь то отстранение спортсменов от международных соревнований или любые другие санкции на свое усмотрение.

«Защитные меры» должны применяться к странам, которые стали причиной различных дестабилизирующих ситуаций — естественно, по версии ISU. Не буду перечислять все и остановлюсь на главном — «война (объявленная или нет)». Не нужно быть гением, чтобы понять, что удар хотят нанести по России и Белоруссии. Ну, а если все совсем туго — что ж, в документе с изменениями несколько раз упоминается кризис на Украине, а Россия и Белоруссия указаны как единственные страны, которые будут поражены в правах."

Match TV has learned that ISU plans to step up sanctions against Russia and Belarus. ISU has sent member national federations a notice of intent to amend ISU's bylaws, specifically, amendment to Rule #104. The change under consideration is to add a paragraph (#17) describing special "protective measures" that will allow ISU Council to suspend national federations and/or limit them in other ways, including suspending athletes from international competitions or any other sanctions at their discretion.

"Protective measures" will be applied to countries that have caused various destabilizing situations - naturally, according to ISU. Let's not list them all but focus on the main one - "a war (announced or unannounced)". One doesn't need to be a genius to understand that this is directed against Russia and Belarus. Still, if one is still struggling to connect the dots, the amended document mentions the Ukraine crisis several times while Russia and Belarus are listed as the only countries whose rights will be affected."

End translation.

This is all to say that Gorshkov is quite right that the new rule is a blow against Russia and Belarus. It's just that you find it right and proper, and he doesn't. I mean I don't see anyone making an argument that this should be applied to all countries destabilizing anything anywhere.