Path forward for Canadian figure skating

[Rafter]

I wonder what is happening at the grassroots. My kids coaches were happy to teach CanSkate and not above asking talented kids "which one is your Mommy"? My daughter begged for lessons when she watched the figure skaters practice. Now there is no figure skating club there that I am aware of and it is all hockey.

I’ll tell you my experience with CanSkate. Pre-pandemic my kids did CanSkate at the North Toronto Skating Club. It was a complete and utter disorganized mess there. The director, a Swedish lady named Marie, was very nice but seemed way in over her head. Too many kids on the ice and coaches who didn’t seem that into their jobs.

When my daughter said she found CanSkate “boring” (it was literally just chasing after hula hoops and discs and balls) we arranged for private lessons. She was with a lady named Dawn Drummond then she had a couple lessons with David Long. That was short lived because he quit the NTSC because he said it was too much driving all over the GTA between coaching and his son’s hockey. I think he’s now at the Granite Club. Anyway, Marie put me in touch with another of her coaches, Robert Burk (Nguyen’s coach), who told me he didn’t have time for private lessons.

This is just one club though. I’m sure others are more organized and professional. I do think there’s an issue with the CanSkate program in itself though in terms of what and how they are teaching.

 

[coppertop1]

See this thread.

Ugh, there needs to be a major inquiry about all coaches.

 

[Yyzskater]

I’ll tell you my experience with CanSkate. Pre-pandemic my kids did CanSkate at the North Toronto Skating Club. It was a complete and utter disorganized mess there. The director, a Swedish lady named Marie, was very nice but seemed way in over her head. Too many kids on the ice and coaches who didn’t seem that into their jobs.

When my daughter said she found CanSkate “boring” (it was literally just chasing after hula hoops and discs and balls) we arranged for private lessons. She was with a lady named Dawn Drummond then she had a couple lessons with David Long. That was short lived because he quit the NTSC because he said it was too much driving all over the GTA between coaching and his son’s hockey. I think he’s now at the Granite Club. Anyway, Marie put me in touch with another of her coaches, Robert Burk (Nguyen’s coach), who told me he didn’t have time for private lessons.

This is just one club though. I’m sure others are more organized and professional. I do think there’s an issue with the CanSkate program in itself though in terms of what and how they are teaching.

Problem is Skate Canada has no control over any club. They are all run independently (mostly by volunteer parents) with no oversight on quality of coaches or lessons. Unfortunately, your experience is very common with CanSkate programs across the country. CanSkate is used as a cash cow for clubs, not to start developing skaters. So they pack their sessions with as many skaters as possible leading to large groups and inexperienced coaches who just take a weekend course to get accredited.

 

[puglover]

So then the CanSkate ads we watch with Tessa and Patrick is not the common experience of most kids? That is too bad.

 

[Habs]

Problem is Skate Canada has no control over any club. They are all run independently (mostly by volunteer parents) with no oversight on quality of coaches or lessons. Unfortunately, your experience is very common with CanSkate programs across the country. CanSkate is used as a cash cow for clubs, not to start developing skaters. So they pack their sessions with as many skaters as possible leading to large groups and inexperienced coaches who just take a weekend course to get accredited.

This was our experience with CanSkate as well. My kids are young and just wanted to learn how to skate properly, so we could go skating as a family or with their friends.
Last year, my oldest daughter (7 at the time) was so frustrated because all they were doing was skating between hula hoops, etc. and there was no one around to help her or show her what she was doing wrong or what could be improved. There were too many kids on the ice and it looked like pure chaos on the ice.
Totally a cash cow for the club. We won’t go back.

 

[Lemonade20]

CanSkate is a joke. It pays for the ice rental, but doesn't really offer any value.

 

[chantilly]

So sad what I’m hearing above.
Any thoughts on solutions?

 

[Yyzskater]

So sad what I’m hearing above.
Any thoughts on solutions?

Unfortunately with how the club structure is set up, there is not. There is no incentives for clubs as a whole to produce quality skaters. And there is very little money in non CanSkate sessions. So as mentioned, CanSkate is just a cash cow. One can become a CanSkate coach with very little experience on the ice themselves. And the weekend course they take doesn't actually teach them how to coach. Even regional coaches (the next level) just requires another weekend of classes, with most of it being off the ice.

 

[chantilly]

Unfortunately with how the club structure is set up, there is not. There is no incentives for clubs as a whole to produce quality skaters. And there is very little money in non CanSkate sessions. So as mentioned, CanSkate is just a cash cow. One can become a CanSkate coach with very little experience on the ice themselves. And the weekend course they take doesn't actually teach them how to coach. Even regional coaches (the next level) just requires another weekend of classes, with most of it being off the ice.

How terrible. Sounds like even I could coach?!!! And that should never be the case. I did at one point think about working with skaters on their acting as a coach, but my location doesn't have many skaters and plus it sound like they wouldn't be interested.

 

[overedge]

Another issue with CanSkate is that often municipal and civic rinks, and some private rinks, also run their own learn to skate programs that are cheaper. IME those programs may have less quality control - at least CanSkate instructors have to have some training - but if a kid is going to learn to skate on a chaotic rink with lots of other kids, why pay more to do that just because it's CanSkate?

 

[jlai]

I'm not very enthusiastic at this moment about where Canadian figure skaters are situated in any event. Not just at the senior level but also at the junior level.

Figure skating is cyclical, of course. But I'm worried that - across the board - we're less competitive technically and that will be hard to make up. To a degree, I'm fine with that - I'm happy that training/coaching elements we see from certain other countries are not part of our culture.

But still - i'm feeling a bit doubtful.

What are your thoughts? Going forward, what strengths do you think we have that will make us competitive and what areas of weakness do you think we have that we can cured through our domestic program?

Jumping in late...
to the original question, I seem to remember a long gap after Stojko retired until Jeffrey Buttle came along? And after that, you have Patrick Chan. But Patrick Chan is a once a generation skater and it's gonna be a while before another Chan/Stojko comes along.
Canada is not known for a strong women's team, but even then you have Joannie and Osmond and Daleman also did well for a while. In fact, Canada got more women medals at worlds last ten years than US!

Pairs and ice dance could use a few more teams coming up. WIll see in a few years if there are some.

 

[shutterbug]

Oh so much to say, but how to say it without sounding like a bitter old crone ......CanSkate/group programs are the lifeblood of most skating clubs in Canada. The hard reality is that without this revenue subsidizing STARSkate, the rates that would need to be charged for private lesson ice are beyond what most families could afford or would be willing to pay. Is it right? No, but at the very least the goal should be for as many of the CanSkaters as possible to have the skills and desire to progress to bridging or StarSkate in the hopes of creating a self-sustaining system. That being said, the current CanSkate program is trash. Our club coaches at the time the revision was introduced were an experienced group who had developed and run a very successful municipal learn to skate program. Their reaction was , , and then , but the two biggest objections were a.) that kids wouldn’t really learn anything, and b.) it wasn’t viable for our small club. In the end, we simply didn’t run it as recommended. It wasn’t like anyone from Skate Canada was going to swoop in and check up on us, which is actually a shame since I’m sure our CanSkate coordinator would have loved to have gone to war over the changes.

 

[overedge]

Thanks @shutterbug - I don't think yours is the only club where this happened

Your point about encouraging skaters from CanSkate into the Star (test) system is a really good one. Another thing that Skate Canada has done wrong IMO is to downplay the test part of its programs and make them into "assessments". My impression was that this was because of a shortage of judges and that kids were dropping out because they couldn't pass the tests. I don't know what to do about the judge problem, because I know that's a significant one especially outside big urban areas, but if kids aren't passing the tests......maybe change the tests?

If you look at USFS pre-prelim freeskate test and SC's Star 1 test, the USFS test is a lot more realistic as to what beginning skaters can do. E.g. SC Star 1 requires a backspin. That's not an easy spin for beginners. USFS doesn't require it until the prelim test.
Star 2 requires a camel spin. USFS doesn't require that until pre-juvenile. I could go on, but you get the point.

Also, the more formal test system was really important for many skaters who didn't want to compete, or who felt they didn't have the big elements to compete against their peers. It gave them goals to work toward, and it was something they could put on resumes, post-secondary applications, and so on. Placing 47th out of 48 novice ladies doesn't look like an accomplishment, even if the skater worked really hard to be able to do that. But to list something like "passed gold freeskate test, highest level in Canadian skating test system" shows dedication and commitment even to people who don't know much about skating.

 

[DE93]

I'd also like to add that not anyone can become a Skate Canada coach. At least when I was skating, you had to have up to at least a Junior Bronze freeskate test in order to be able to get your Canskate coaching. I know several peers who specifically stayed in to test up to Jr Bronze so that they could have a part time coaching job.

 

[screech]

Jumping in late...
to the original question, I seem to remember a long gap after Stojko retired until Jeffrey Buttle came along? And after that, you have Patrick Chan. But Patrick Chan is a once a generation skater and it's gonna be a while before another Chan/Stojko comes along.

Unless you must mean Worlds medals (Elvis' last one was 2000, Jeff's first was 2005), Jeff had a fantastic burst onto the scene during Elvis' last season (2001/2002). That season, Jeff medalled at his first ever GP event (NHK), was 3rd at Canadians, won 4CC, and was top 10 at Worlds.

 

[coppertop1]

Ironically, Buttle was never hyped up ad "The Next One" quite as much. Everyone was focused on Sandhu. Buttle was never a domininant skater but he was usually reliable.

 

[Yyzskater]

I'd also like to add that not anyone can become a Skate Canada coach. At least when I was skating, you had to have up to at least a Junior Bronze freeskate test in order to be able to get your Canskate coaching. I know several peers who specifically stayed in to test up to Jr Bronze so that they could have a part time coaching job.

The minimum is Star 5 now to become a CanSkate coach.

 

[Yyzskater]

The minimum is Star 5 now to become a CanSkate coach.

But I know my daughter, when attending her CanSkate course, had adults in the class who could barely skate and definitely couldn't do a single axel (minimum in a star 5 assessment). They seemed to be parents who wanted to become CanSkate coaches?? I do know several parents who took the technical specialist courses and ended up judging competitions locally.

 

[mackiecat]

But I know my daughter, when attending her CanSkate course, had adults in the class who could barely skate and definitely couldn't do a single axel (minimum in a star 5 assessment). They seemed to be parents who wanted to become CanSkate coaches?? I do know several parents who took the technical specialist courses and ended up judging competitions locally.

A parent without skating background can NOT become a technical specialist ( not even a Base level Technical Official). https://skateontario.org/technical-official-clinic/

Never could. In the past one had to have higher Level competition experience as a skater or a coach in order to even be chosen to go to the course.

 

[Yyzskater]

A parent without skating background can NOT become a technical specialist ( not even a Base level Technical Official). https://skateontario.org/technical-official-clinic/

Never could. In the past one had to have higher Level competition experience as a skater or a coach in order to even be chosen to go to the course.

We definitely had parerts

A parent without skating background can NOT become a technical specialist ( not even a Base level Technical Official). https://skateontario.org/technical-official-clinic/

Never could. In the past one had to have higher Level competition experience as a skater or a coach in order to even be chosen to go to the course.

The new requirement is 16 years old and "skating background" which could be a star 5 testing. We definitely have first hand seen parents do this, but admittedly, I have no idea the parents skating background. Maybe they too were skaters in the past, here or abroad. But definitely, Skate Canada has lowered the requirements for coaching and judging to star 5. Mind you, these judges are only at local competitions. Judges and technical specialists definitely need to work their way up the hierarchy before doing larger comps at National/International level. But that also shows you the lack of interest in coaching ane judging when they had to lower the requirements to what it currently is.

 

[chewy]

But I know my daughter, when attending her CanSkate course, had adults in the class who could barely skate and definitely couldn't do a single axel (minimum in a star 5 assessment). They seemed to be parents who wanted to become CanSkate coaches?? I do know several parents who took the technical specialist courses and ended up judging competitions locally.

It is now one Junior Bronze Starskate test or a Star 5 assessment to do only the Canskate coach pathway. So someone with Star 5 dance or Jr Bronze dance is eligible. To go onto Regional coach (old level 1) that's when either the Star 5 Freeskate is needed, or, Senior Bronze Dances and absolutely if someone could not skate they would not pass the course because the course conductor evaluated everyone and there are instances of failures. The changing of requirements opened the coaching door to synchro skaters, and in tiny rural clubs, getting an adult Canskate Certified meant a basic learn to skate program could still exist and keep that exposure to figure skating.

I do like what they did with the arrangement of skills in New Canskate (or new new new Canskate, so many changes over the years) because it does emphasize rotation and taking risk earlier, but the implementation was a mess and the pressure on clubs to comply is a marketing exercise only. Skate Canada wanted to be the expert in teaching skating, and de-figured the curriculum but their efforts to break into the learn to skate for hockey market had little support. But the bigger picture is that there are less athletic kids in the demographic, they have more choices in sports and don't want to early specialize, and figure skating costs money. The analysis why CFSA sucks or Skate Canada sucks has gone on my entire skating lifetime

 

[overedge]

I believe Hockey Canada has its own Learn To Skate program. I'm sure most parents whose kids want to play hockey would put them in that program rather than CanSkate.

IMO one of the reasons for Skate Canada being so problematic for a long time is the lack of competition, other than from civic/municipal skating programs. I wonder if things would be any different if ISI operated in Canada. I'm not sure if this is true, but I was told that at the time ISI got underway there was a professional coaches' association in Canada - like PSA in the US - and that association made it clear that they didn't want two national skating programs in Canada. And ISI didn't come into Canada, despite being founded by a Canadian.

 

[Yyzskater]

The issue with CanSkate is a grassroots problem with no solution in the foreseeable future.

The bigger issue is once skaters are out of CanSkate and enter the Starskate stream, there seems to be a lack of ability to cultivate them. The assess to standard up to Star 4 is confusing for skaters and parents. They are considered competitions but in reality, they are not. Before the Starskate system was implemented, there was the pre-prelimary A/B, preliminary A/B, etc that were actually scored with placements which prepared skaters to move up levels. Now, until Star 5, they have almost gone with the "everyone wins, no one loses" mentality that many other sports have gone with. So theoretically, a flight of skaters can all get "gold".

 

[screech]

Another thing that doesn't help Canadian figure skating is the consolidation of sections. Ontario used to be split into 4 different sections. Figure skating has greatly diminished in Northern Ontario since the consolidation. Most of the competitions that took place in Northern Ontario no longer exist, making it harder for skaters to compete. As by far the largest section by area, it was hard enough for skaters from the Thunder Bay or even the southern Algoma regions (like Sault Ste Marie) go get to the competitions that were annual events in Sudbury and North Bay. Or to get to the Sectionals that rotated amongst the 5 biggest cities in the region. Now they've lost those competitions, those opportunities to develop their skills against their competitors, and it's likely leading to more skaters dropping out of the sport.

 

[Yyzskater]

Another thing that doesn't help Canadian figure skating is the consolidation of sections. Ontario used to be split into 4 different sections. Figure skating has greatly diminished in Northern Ontario since the consolidation. Most of the competitions that took place in Northern Ontario no longer exist, making it harder for skaters to compete. As by far the largest section by area, it was hard enough for skaters from the Thunder Bay or even the southern Algoma regions (like Sault Ste Marie) go get to the competitions that were annual events in Sudbury and North Bay. Or to get to the Sectionals that rotated amongst the 5 biggest cities in the region. Now they've lost those competitions, those opportunities to develop their skills against their competitors, and it's likely leading to more skaters dropping out of the sport.

Agree. There seems to be no benefit to the amalgamation of the 4 sections except for COS skaters. GTA skaters had access to 4 competitions to qualify for provincial championships. Northern, I believe, had a video submission available to them. That is 4 opportunities to compete live and 4 chances to qualify. This seems highly unfair. I can see why skaters outside of the GTA would be discouraged.

 

[Sylvia]

Novice Nationals is Feb. 26-27, 2022, in Calgary:

2022 Canadian Tire National Skating Championships - Novice Division, to take place in Calgary

OTTAWA, ON: The 2022 Canadian Tire National Skating Championships – [...]

skatecanada.ca

I've copied out all the Novice starting orders in the competition thread in Kiss & Cry: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/sc-novice-competition-calgary-feb-26-27.109473/

 

[fan]

I'd also like to add that not anyone can become a Skate Canada coach. At least when I was skating, you had to have up to at least a Junior Bronze freeskate test in order to be able to get your Canskate coaching. I know several peers who specifically stayed in to test up to Jr Bronze so that they could have a part time coaching job.

Two jr bronze, in any 2 of: dance, skills or free skate.

 

[WanderlustTO]

Figure skating has declined for a long time. Even Skate Canada has cut back a lot, making it impossible for the upcoming future generation of skaters to succeed. They need skating seminars, competitions, more leadership and Slipchuck is failing at it. We have so many talented coaches and it feels like they're all focused only on the elite skaters. SC needs to focus on the younger groups (as young as 8)

Agreed - but the question is what does that mean? What does a SC program focused on elevating and training the most talented youngsters look like?

I think we all wish for an SC future that results in training that keeps our skaters competitive - and I think most (all?) of us are uncomfortable with the training programs we see in certain other countries that have resulted in skaters that are ranked at the top.

 

[SpiffySpiders]

All just my opinions, of course :

Two elements are driving this decline; failure to push the elements forward and lack of interest.

Canadian coaching is lagging behind in technical development, which is odd considering we used to be at the forefront with quads for men and big tricks for pairs. The grassroots training, where potential should be recognized and encouraged, has moved too far into making it fun and accessible for everyone. Now kids who want to compete find it dull or confusing and move on. I liken the situation to how installing a replacement community swimming pool used by generations of often low-income kids in my home city was handled. The original pool was deep enough for a small diving platform but the city council selected a walk-in pool with no deep end as the proposed replacement. When the club attached to the existing pool said this was unacceptable for teaching swimming and diving, the response was that the city wanted something everyone could enjoy safely, not just children who could, or wanted to learn how to, swim.

I'm not saying we need to push talented kids to exhaustion or life-changing injury, but there is a middle ground between Ice Queen Eteri and everyone wins recreational skating with a disorganized path into elite training.

Then there's the other challenge - figure skating is not a winter sport of choice for the majority ofyoung Canadian athletes anymore. The risk-takers are interested in ski and snowboard competitions where they get to show off jaw-dropping twists and jumps high in the air or get their elbows out against other racers as they jockey for position down the course. The skaters are loving speed events - Canada won several medals in both short and long-track speed skating - or sticking with hockey, where Canadian women won gold. These sports are less expensive and a lot less controversial (short track aside, lol) and soul-crushing. The rider with the biggest, best-preformed trick or the fastest skater against the clock or the first across the finish line or the team that scores the most goals wins. No one asks young hockey girls to starve themselves or critiques their makeup game. Guys on snowboards are able to have fun and not worry about getting too tall or fitting into a strict expectation of conduct. Why would the average Canadian kid want to take up figure skating with so many more affordable, fun, and popular options?

 

[clairecloutier]

Skiing and snowboarding are affordable in Canada?? Somewhat serious question here, as I have no idea what it’s like. In the U.S., it’s definitely not affordable.