David Wilson Calls for New Leadership at Skate Canada

[skatingguy]

Just so I understand, have there been no in-person competitions of any sport that uses an indoor rink in Canada since the ********* began?

ETA: Besides the major NHL hockey we can see on tv

Yes, that's the situation in most of the country.

 

[Colonel Green]

3. Results speak for themselves. Every major on ice success under her time was developed by those before her. 4. clear lack of prioritizing development. Cutting back on opportunities for athletes yet finds the money for an expensive strategic plan. Result will be a dry stretch for Canada which should simply never happen.

I think this is also unfair.

The current weaknesses in singles (and arguably pairs, below the top team; dance is doing fine) doesn't reflect any lack of federation priority. The up-and-coming prospects from about 2014 through now have, for whatever reason, been consistently getting derailed by things that have nothing to do with what Skate Canada was doing. It's not their fault that, for instance, every young man with some promise in juniors grew to be 6 feet tall and/or struggled with injuries (many of them related to the aforementioned growth). Or that Charlie Bilodeau turned out to be a toxic narcissist who wrecked multiple promising partnerships (also in addition to major injuries).

None of this is to argue that the federation is perfect, by any means (nobody is). But you only get so many talented athletes at any one time, and (other than in dance, again) the last development cycle is I would argue disproportionately strewn with hard-luck cases.

Just so I understand, have there been no in-person competitions of any sport that uses an indoor rink in Canada since the ********* began?

ETA: Besides the major NHL hockey we can see on tv

In-person tournaments bringing a bunch of people from all over the country (which is what nationals would be), no. Local hockey, for instance, has been allowed in a lot of places.

The upcoming plans for the various curling tournaments are all bubble events in Alberta.

 

[sap5]

I think this is also unfair.

The current weaknesses in singles (and arguably pairs, below the top team; dance is doing fine) doesn't reflect any lack of federation priority. The up-and-coming prospects from about 2014 through now have, for whatever reason, been consistently getting derailed by things that have nothing to do with what Skate Canada was doing. It's not their fault that, for instance, every young man with some promise in juniors grew to be 6 feet tall and/or struggled with injuries (many of them related to the aforementioned growth). Or that Charlie Bilodeau turned out to be a toxic narcissist who wrecked multiple promising partnerships (also in addition to major injuries).

None of this is to argue that the federation is perfect, by any means (nobody is). But you only get so many talented athletes at any one time, and (other than in dance, again) the last development cycle is I would argue disproportionately strewn with hard-luck cases.

In-person tournaments bringing a bunch of people from all over the country (which is what nationals would be), no. Local hockey, for instance, has been allowed in a lot of places.

The upcoming plans for the various curling tournaments are all bubble events in Alberta.

Local hockey has been allowed in a lot of places, but local skaters have been struggling to find ice time and practice regularly?

I'm going by what Meagan Duhamel said in that recent interview done by A Divine Sport: https://adivinesport.com/2021/02/13/meagan-duhamel-life-after-the-olympics/

Q: How has the pandemic affected coaching and training in Canada?

D: Well, right now the challenge is the ice cost and the ice times. Every province is different. In Ontario, if you’re a junior- or senior-level skater, whether Canadian or from another country, you can train. Ice is very expensive, though, because you’re only allowed eight people on at a time. Ice fees are the same, but there’s less people on the ice, so it becomes more difficult for skaters to pay for their regular training sessions. And then there’s different rules in Quebec. In Quebec, you can only skate if you’re part of a sports study program. Out in Alberta, there’s nothing open at all, and skaters are training on outdoor rinks. And then in BC, everything is open. Learn to Skate is running. So it’s very different everywhere. And that’s why Skate Canada really couldn’t run a Nationals, because it’s not a fair playing field for anybody. I work online with Ravi Walia’s group [Kaetlyn Osmond’s former coach]. And they literally go to outdoor rinks and train all day long, and run programs with earbuds in their ears.

How is local hockey happening if only 8 people are allowed on the ice at a time? And how did a hockey tournament happen in Alberta if nothing is open at all?

I'm just confused.

 

[Colonel Green]

Local hockey has been allowed in a lot of places, but local skaters have been struggling to find ice time and practice regularly?

Yes, because YKW has made ice-time more expensive (and in some provinces, the rinks are shut down period).

 

[sap5]

Yes, because YKW has made ice-time more expensive (and in some provinces, the rinks are shut down period).

How is hockey affording ice time if figure skaters can't?

 

[Cherub721]

The current weaknesses in singles (and arguably pairs, below the top team; dance is doing fine) doesn't reflect any lack of federation priority.

I don't think dance in Canada is as good as it could be. They typically had a team ready to pick up where the last left off on the podium. B&K to D&L to V&M to W&P. The current top 3 teams certainly aren't as strong as the 2018 team or even the 2014 team. G&P haven't been able to step up yet. They missed qualifying to the home GPF where they could have medaled and gotten some momentum. And while I commend SC for putting public health over holding Nationals, there are going to be some consequences to their skaters not having competed live all season, if they make it to Worlds at all. P&C skipping Worlds created an opening, and IMO it's more likely that bronze goes to one of the American, Russian, or Italian team(s) that have been out there competing. Scott Moir's school couldn't be coming at a better time. It's ironic that Canadian dancers are losing steam at a time when more and more teams train in Canada.

The up-and-coming prospects from about 2014 through now have, for whatever reason, been consistently getting derailed by things that have nothing to do with what Skate Canada was doing. It's not their fault that, for instance, every young man with some promise in juniors grew to be 6 feet tall and/or struggled with injuries (many of them related to the aforementioned growth).

Surely these are foreseeable problems that every federation deals with and SC has successfully dealt with in the past?

Or that Charlie Bilodeau turned out to be a toxic narcissist who wrecked multiple promising partnerships (also in addition to major injuries).

Could be partially their fault for entertaining his BS.

 

[kwanfan1818]

How is hockey affording ice time if figure skaters can't?

Duhamel is one of many who've pointed out that most rinks earn a lot more from hockey than from figure skating, so they get dibs on the times and blocks they need, and figure skating gets what's left. Also, when it comes to playoffs, you have to plan for making it through to the end, if you're the home team.

ETA: Re: Ice Dance, for a while it looked like Wing and Lowe were putting together a robust program in Vancouver. They would coach a senior competitive team -- they had Harvey/Gagnon and Orford/Williams -- while starting to build a strong junior program. I think they were better at choreographing for junior teams and that Orford/Williams might have done better competitively with stronger programs earlier. But then there were injuries among the junior teams, one beautiful, talented dancer grew to be too tall and did solo dance for a while, and kids went to college when it was time.

 

[skategal]

We are allowed 60 in Nova Scotia (for any sport) and just allowed up to 100 spectators.

We still aren’t allowed tournament type events that would bring together people from across the city or province.

Skate Canada Nova Scotia chapter just this week canceled their competition planned for March 13 & 14.

 

[Colonel Green]

And how did a hockey tournament happen in Alberta if nothing is open at all?

The World Juniors was before everything was closed, and it was done in a full bubble with two-week quarantines of all players before play started.

How is hockey affording ice time if figure skaters can't?

By having lots of money.

I don't think dance in Canada is as good as it could be. They typically had a team ready to pick up where the last left off on the podium. B&K to D&L to V&M to W&P. The current top 3 teams certainly aren't as strong as the 2018 team or even the 2014 team. G&P haven't been able to step up yet. They missed qualifying to the home GPF where they could have medaled and gotten some momentum.

It's not the best its ever been, of course, but it's certainly not weak and (since what we're discussing is the federation's role) it's not the federation's fault that Piper Gilles fell in the RD at SCI and as a result they missed the Final in 2018. Ice dance is also a highly subjective/political discipline, of course, so there's all kinds of factors that come into play there regarding how teams do. But it's not a developmental problem.

Scott Moir's school couldn't be coming at a better time. It's ironic that Canadian dancers are losing steam at a time when more and more teams train in Canada.

I mean, arguably the fact that a lot of Canadian dance politicking power is now built up in an I.A.M. system where Canada's present top team (and Weaver/Poje before them) don't train is actually a drag on the performance of the Canadian ice dancers politically at the moment.

Surely these are foreseeable problems that every federation deals with and SC has successfully dealt with in the past?

It's foreseeable that not everybody will reach their potential and that injuries will happen and that some people will grow really tall. But no federation can control how many get injured or how well they recover or how many of them get tall; in this case, they got dealt a lot of bad returns. That's luck, not strategy.

Could be partially their fault for entertaining his BS.

Now that's just getting into speculation that they even did that, but let's say they take a different tack and cut him off; how does that put them in any better a position?

Federations can't control the personalities of their skaters. The USFS, for instance, surely didn't want the super-promising Nguyen/Kolesnik to break up right after their Junior World dance title, but they couldn't force them to stay together. I'm sure there was a blue streak being cursed in RusFed HQ when Katsalapov dumped Ilinykh. And so on.

 

[overedge]

The costs that SC incurred for 2020 worlds are shown in its 2020 annual report, which is posted online.

Re how hockey is able to afford ice time while skating can't, the price of ice time isn't determined by which sport is using the ice. The price depends on what the rink usually charges, what time of day the ice is booked for, and whether there are any discounts - in my region, some civic rinks reduce the cost for ice if the user group has a certain % or number of kids in it. This is to make the activity more affordable so that kids will stay physically active.

Ice is also usually cheaper at night than during prime time hours in the day. The privately owned rinks around here all have late-night adult hockey leagues. Hockey keeps going because it has players that will pay to play at those hours.

 

[Judy]

How is hockey affording ice time if figure skaters can't?

Owners own their rink. NHL owners like baseball, basketball, football are millionaires (like mine) or most times billionaires.

 

[Mont]

The current weaknesses in singles (and arguably pairs, below the top team; dance is doing fine) doesn't reflect any lack of federation priority. The up-and-coming prospects from about 2014 through now have, for whatever reason, been consistently getting derailed by things that have nothing to do with what Skate Canada was doing. It's not their fault that, for instance, every young man with some promise in juniors grew to be 6 feet tall and/or struggled with injuries (many of them related to the aforementioned growth). Or that Charlie Bilodeau turned out to be a toxic narcissist who wrecked multiple promising partnerships (also in addition to major injuries).

Totally disagree. Strategic investment and assistance at the local level can maximize the available talent pool while having the additional benefit of making it more sustainable. There will be rough patches for sure but they won't be for long and the trajectory will be generally up.

 

[Colonel Green]

Totally disagree. Strategic investment and assistance at the local level can maximize the available talent pool while having the additional benefit of making it more sustainable. There will be rough patches for sure but they won't be for long and the trajectory will be generally up.

Obviously it can, but they're already doing that. And we're seeing some more promising skaters or partnerships start to develop now. But no federation can control things like skater growth and injury -- most recently with Stephen Gogolev, who gets tons of federation support but between growth and injury has basically been largely MIA for a year (and had a difficult season before that); variations of the same thing also happened to Nam Nguyen, Roman Sadovsky and Nic Nadeau. You only get so many big potential talents at any one time.

They were also really trying to help Aurora Cotop after 2018 nationals, but she's just had one health problem after another and has barely competed over the last three years (and this is in ladies, a discipline with longstanding underwhelming results for the most part).

 

[Judy]

The costs that SC incurred for 2020 worlds are shown in its 2020 annual report, which is posted online.

Re how hockey is able to afford ice time while skating can't, the price of ice time isn't set by the sport. It depends on what the rink usually charges, what time of day the ice is booked for, and whether there are any discounts - in my region, some civic rinks reduce the cost for ice if the user group has a certain % or number of kids in it. This is to make the activity more affordable so that kids will stay physically active.

Ice is also usually cheaper at night than during prime time hours in the day. The privately owned rinks around here all have late-night adult hockey leagues.

Owners don’t pay for ice time ... they own the building basically. I am assuming the same for the U.S. Canadian teams also have to pay the players salaries in U.S. money.

 

[overedge]

@Colonel Green I get @Mont 's point though. If SC invested more resources in developing skaters at the lower levels - all the way down to CanSkate - then it's less likely they would be in the risky position of having only a few elite skaters to support and hoping nothing derails their careers.

IMO there's also a retention issue with that strategy. We all know that skating has its politics, and some skaters for whatever reasons are "the chosen ones". But when skaters keep getting resources and that doesn't result in noticeable improvement or consistency, that's discouraging to other skaters who know they are not "the chosen ones".

SC is certainly not the only federation with this problem, but a more broad-based development strategy, rather than focusing mostly on skaters with elite competitive potential, would keep skaters in the sport longer. And that equals more $$$ for the federation. IMO this is something that USFS does a lot better than SC.

 

[Mont]

@Colonel Green I get @Mont 's point though. If SC invested more resources in developing skaters at the lower levels - all the way down to CanSkate - then it's less likely they would be in the risky position of having only a few elite skaters to support and hoping nothing derails their careers.

Exactly. And investing in the coaches. That can help the immediate skaters as well as stretching into the future. So helping them develop their skills and ensuring they and their athletes have resources will pay off. But I suppose an expensive strategic plan is a much better allocation of resources....

 

[Colonel Green]

But I suppose an expensive strategic plan is a much better allocation of resources....

Is there not something of a contradiction in attacking the federation for, in your view, not doing enough for long-term development and also attacking them for trying to create a long-term strategy for development?

Exactly. And investing in the coaches.

They do that too.

 

[Mont]

Is there not something of a contradiction in attacking the federation for, in your view, not doing enough for long-term development and also attacking them for trying to create a long-term strategy for development?

No. A few reasons. First, the cost was ridiculous. Another example of bloated organization over allocation of resources where needed. Second, much of the strategic plan has little to do with athlete development. Three, if you get the honest view of coaches, SC is not delivering on the strategies in any event. Four, the leadership has no skill to implement as shown by their track record (or lack thereof).

 

[overedge]

IIRC any sport organization that gets funding from the Canadian government has to have a strategic plan in place. Personally I'm not disputing the value of a strategic plan. But SC's strategic plan (https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2018-2022-Skate-Canada-Strategic-Plan.pdf) is not a good one.

A strategic plan has to identify what's going well and what isn't, and too much of the plan is back-patting about how great the previous one was. E.g. the results of surveys of stakeholders emphasize how many people agreed with the proposed vision and mission statements (see page 7), rather than going into the respondents who were neutral or dissatisfied, and why they felt that way. Also, strategic planning works better if respondents are surveyed before developing these statements, to see what the statements should reflect or include. Asking respondents to assess only one draft statement can result in a "oh, what the hell, this is almost finished so nothing I say is going to make any difference now" attitude that would result in a "satisfied" response. Especially in an organization with a culture of "getting along by going along".

The plan is also really thin IMO on what the vision, mission, statements, "imperatives" and "foundational elements" actually mean in practice. There's benchmarks for measuring achievement, but there's not a lot about what resources are going to be put in place to support reaching those benchmarks.

For what it's worth, although 'skate for life' is promoted as a goal throughout the plan, there is no mention of adult skating anywhere in the document, or any programs like those USFS uses to keep skaters in the sport (e.g. solo dance, Showcase, Theatre on Ice). The only change in that area, in this plan from the previous one, is a mention that synchro could be a way for skaters to stay active in the sport. But not every skater wants to do synchro. When almost half of SC's revenue comes from membership fees, one of its top strategic priorities should be to develop as many ways as possible to keep all skaters in the sport, for as long as those skaters want to participate.

 

[Judy]

Does Michael Slipchuck still work for SC?

 

[greenapple]

Does Michael Slipchuck still work for SC?

Yes. He is the high performance director.

 

[Mont]

No. A few reasons. First, the cost was ridiculous. Another example of bloated organization over allocation of resources where needed. Second, much of the strategic plan has little to do with athlete development. Three, if you get the honest view of coaches, SC is not delivering on the strategies in any event. Four, the leadership has no skill to implement as shown by their track record (or lack thereof).

As an aside. I am not opposed to strat plans. I think they have a place if they are focused and honest and actually are strategic. Also, I am not anti Skate Canada, in fact, to the contrary. I just find the decline sad and distressing and preventable.

 

[Judy]

Yes. He is the high performance director.

He did an excellent job before .. really haven’t been following Skate Canada in a while.

He used to live near me when he was in Ottawa.

 

[Willin]

And yet we can't get any more members than Canada who has a smaller population to draw from. I think that shows that figure skating is more popular in Canada and that USFS could do even more to promote skating here.

But I digress...

While USFS has the same number of members, they are a lot better at squeezing money out of those members. The amount of members doesn't matter as much in the money game here as how you're using those members.

Totally disagree. Strategic investment and assistance at the local level can maximize the available talent pool while having the additional benefit of making it more sustainable. There will be rough patches for sure but they won't be for long and the trajectory will be generally up.

@Colonel Green I get @Mont 's point though. If SC invested more resources in developing skaters at the lower levels - all the way down to CanSkate - then it's less likely they would be in the risky position of having only a few elite skaters to support and hoping nothing derails their careers.

IMO there's also a retention issue with that strategy. We all know that skating has its politics, and some skaters for whatever reasons are "the chosen ones". But when skaters keep getting resources and that doesn't result in noticeable improvement or consistency, that's discouraging to other skaters who know they are not "the chosen ones".

SC is certainly not the only federation with this problem, but a more broad-based development strategy, rather than focusing mostly on skaters with elite competitive potential, would keep skaters in the sport longer. And that equals more $$$ for the federation. IMO this is something that USFS does a lot better than SC.

USFS is trying to develop talent at the lower levels and it's going really well. What doesn't seem to be happening is the follow up to make these skaters and coaches successful once they get past Novice. It seems they're trying different strategies to get skaters to stay invested and good. Developing coaches, on the other hand... Just look what they did to Kori Ade and are doing to Laura Lepitsky.

They also do this while managing to squeeze money out of those they're scouting and developing: the new competition series, development camps, STARS, etc. These are all development things that happen on a local level (minus national-level camps) and are largely run by local volunteers with a couple USFS development and training specialists on board to help and scout. They also have coaching camps and seminars coaches can pay to attend every summer.

USFS is even piloting a program where clubs/skaters can pay to have USFS send a few National-level judges/tech specialists/scouts to critique and review elite-track skaters' programs and potential. They piloted it at my club as a test-session sort of thing for Juv and up skaters planning to compete at regionals. From my understanding it started with a Champs Camp-esque performance/critique/scouting session followed by the USFS panel having a broader discussion and video session of what they look for in elite programs and skaters with all the coaches and skaters.

 

[sap5]

While USFS has the same number of members, they are a lot better at squeezing money out of those members. The amount of members doesn't matter as much in the money game here as how you're using those members.



USFS is trying to develop talent at the lower levels and it's going really well. What doesn't seem to be happening is the follow up to make these skaters and coaches successful once they get past Novice. It seems they're trying different strategies to get skaters to stay invested and good. Developing coaches, on the other hand... Just look what they did to Kori Ade and are doing to Laura Lepitsky.

They also do this while managing to squeeze money out of those they're scouting and developing: the new competition series, development camps, STARS, etc. These are all development things that happen on a local level (minus national-level camps) and are largely run by local volunteers with a couple USFS development and training specialists on board to help and scout. They also have coaching camps and seminars coaches can pay to attend every summer.

USFS is even piloting a program where clubs/skaters can pay to have USFS send a few National-level judges/tech specialists/scouts to critique and review elite-track skaters' programs and potential. They piloted it at my club as a test-session sort of thing for Juv and up skaters planning to compete at regionals. From my understanding it started with a Champs Camp-esque performance/critique/scouting session followed by the USFS panel having a broader discussion and video session of what they look for in elite programs and skaters with all the coaches and skaters.

What's the ice time situation there? Are your club skaters able to afford ice time? I'm trying to understand how a Federation can develop skaters if the skaters can't afford to skate?

 

[Willin]

@sap5 A lot of the skaters come from well-off families that can afford it, or at least middle class families that can afford it by sacrificing things like vacations. But there are other ways as well...

• USFS and local clubs provide funding to high level skaters or top talents. For instance, Dinh Tran (who is from a low income family) was known to be a talent early on, so a single donor through SCSF funded all of his skating. I don't know his current funding arrangement. SCSF is known to be generous, as are a few other clubs, so skaters will go to those clubs to get help with funding. USFS has scholarships and skating funds that skaters can apply for even before they're in the funding envelopes.
• Some disciplines have funding available for volunteering. For instance, USFS funds some high level synchro skaters on the condition that they blog about their experience occasionally, help USFS promote synchro on social media, and help out at USFS's skating camps. I think a few singles/pairs skaters do this as well.
• Some skaters do crowd funding or fundraisers at their local rinks. Local businesses may partner with skaters or give money to clubs for funding.
• There's work that will get you benefits. Some rinks give employees free sessions (publics, usually, but sometimes freestyle or adult sessions), so skaters will work part time as coaches or rink staff once they get old enough.
• Clubs often have club ice and may give their elite skaters free or discounted access to it.

Of course more can be done to fund these younger prospects from not wealthy families, but frankly skating is so expensive from the get go that there aren't really that many prospects who aren't from wealthy families.

 

[sap5]

@sap5 A lot of the skaters come from well-off families that can afford it, or at least middle class families that can afford it by sacrificing things like vacations. But there are other ways as well...

• USFS and local clubs provide funding to high level skaters or top talents. For instance, Dinh Tran (who is from a low income family) was known to be a talent early on, so a single donor through SCSF funded all of his skating. I don't know his current funding arrangement. SCSF is known to be generous, as are a few other clubs, so skaters will go to those clubs to get help with funding. USFS has scholarships and skating funds that skaters can apply for even before they're in the funding envelopes.
• Some disciplines have funding available for volunteering. For instance, USFS funds some high level synchro skaters on the condition that they blog about their experience occasionally, help USFS promote synchro on social media, and help out at USFS's skating camps. I think a few singles/pairs skaters do this as well.
• Some skaters do crowd funding or fundraisers at their local rinks. Local businesses may partner with skaters or give money to clubs for funding.
• There's work that will get you benefits. Some rinks give employees free sessions (publics, usually, but sometimes freestyle or adult sessions), so skaters will work part time as coaches or rink staff once they get old enough.
• Clubs often have club ice and may give their elite skaters free or discounted access to it.

Of course more can be done to fund these younger prospects from not wealthy families, but frankly skating is so expensive from the get go that there aren't really that many prospects who aren't from wealthy families.

Thank you for your detailed explanation. Do you know anything about how YKW affected ice costs, ice times, & ice access for figure skaters in the US?

 

[barbarafan]

Yes I am sure. Toronto‘s numbers are a huge problem. The size of Toronto contributes to that of course.

True....It starts from the top...When it comes the virus Doug Ford is a mini Donald Trump..Lots of PPL follow him..ignore the virus and attend super spreaders. Then PPL day to day who follow all the rules (FS amongst them) get creamed in new restriction due to the wild parties.

 

[Judy]

True....It starts from the top...When it comes the ***** Doug Ford is a mini Donald Trump..Lots of PPL follow him..ignore the ***** and attend super spreaders. Then PPL day to day who follow all the rules (FS amongst them) get creamed in new restriction due to the wild parties.

I don’t think he’s a mini Donald Trump and I vote Liberal. But there is only soooo much the government can do. Bylaw and police charging, very strict rules. At the end of the day people need to be responsible too. There are a lot of people who feel the govt is trying to control us, it’s all a hoax, the pandemic is over blah blah. Not everyone but geez last weekend a small group of protestors formed at Parliament protesting closures, masking and embracing that the pandemic is officially over ?. Idiots. Toronto is a huge, huge city and of course larger cities are going to be hard to control. In Ottawa the mayor closed the toboggan hill in one section of the city hundreds of idiots were going on the toboggan hill when there is a limit of 25. I am not sure what else the govt can really do that they aren’t doing.

 

[tony]

I don’t think he’s a mini Donald Trump and I vote Liberal. But there is only soooo much the government can do. Bylaw and police charging, very strict rules. At the end of the day people need to be responsible too. There are a lot of people who feel the govt is trying to control us, it’s all a hoax, the ********* is over blah blah. Not everyone but geez last weekend a small group of protestors formed at Parliament protesting closures, masking and embracing that the ********* is officially over ?. Idiots. Toronto is a huge, huge city and of course larger cities are going to be hard to control. In Ottawa the mayor closed the toboggan hill in one section of the city hundreds of idiots were going on the toboggan hill when there is a limit of 25. I am not sure what else the govt can really do that they aren’t doing.

Oh wait, your country is now experiencing people constantly trying to get around or protest the rules while others actually follow them? I thought based on FSU comments that only Americans (as a whole) broke rules.