Kevin Reynolds' music copyright problem (is there a precedent for this?)

[rosewood]

Kevin LOVES Japan and has many fans there. This could be his last time competing in Japan; I highly doubt he would even consider withdrawing for a non-injury reason.

This.

ETA: The copyright thing was an unfortunate trouble but I hope he can somewhat manage to deal with this difficult situation for himself & his fans at NHK.

 

[maatTheViking]

I always assume the bad Michael Jackson and Beatles covers are because of copyright issues. (those two artists seem to always be covers?)

I am sorry for Kevin. I hope he finds a solution.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This is terrible news, especially so close to NHK. His musical choice was to honor his fan base in Japan and Japan itself in the first place, not simply to find nice music for a program.

 

[RoseRed]

I always assume the bad Michael Jackson and Beatles covers are because of copyright issues. (those two artists seem to always be covers?)

I am sorry for Kevin. I hope he finds a solution.

Patrick Chan used the Beatles versions of Blackbird and Dear Prudence IIRC. And Weaver/Poje had the original MJ for 2/3 songs in their 2016-17 SD. So obviously you can use it. I really think people just like the covers, think they work better for skating, etc. Or want their programs not to get blocked on Youtube, which is a slightly different issue.

 

[russell30]

I THINK the whole COPYRIGHT Issue is getting so STUPID! and RIDICULOUS who is behind all these laws....just comes down to money in my opinion, Feel sorry for Kevin!! and for other skaters surely it's a good thing they are promoting the artists music right!!! and in other sports.....You tube is getting on my nerves with repeated audio or blocked videos, this year there seems to be problems with Jason's Free Skate, Smart and Diaz FD and Konstantinova's SP, Tomano SP and there are OTHERS!, It s a skating program we want to watch whats wrong with that why take out the audio or be blocked.....ITs getting insane!! Sorry if i steered off the whole issue with Kevin, but in retrospect they are similar...

Can I just mention yes seems to be a problem in Japan...Ikuko Kawai although you can use her music her audio gets blocked also did Daisuke Takahashi also have a problem with Sonatina for Violin SP!

 

[starrynight]

It is so frustrating when programs get muted because of copyright. As someone who has to rely on YouTube most of the time to watch skating, there are some programs I simply haven't seen because they've been blocked. I can't imagine skaters like it much because programs being watched on YouTube is how they get fans and visibility. I have no idea why a skater would want to knowingly do a program where the music would be muted. Perhaps some of them don't know?

 

[Carolla5501]

I’m sorry that it upsets people but the people that developed the music have rights too. Those rights are not any less just because your skater happens to be skating to the music. Would you like it if people took your property and did with it what they wanted without compensating you?

 

[Skittl1321]

That is disappointing for him. I would think that any musician would appreciate their music being used because of the exposure. But obviously not.

Exposure doesn't pay bills.
(Not that this composer needs money; but still, it's his work.)

 

[Erin]

I always assume the bad Michael Jackson and Beatles covers are because of copyright issues. (those two artists seem to always be covers?)

Patrick Chan used the Beatles versions of Blackbird and Dear Prudence IIRC. And Weaver/Poje had the original MJ for 2/3 songs in their 2016-17 SD. So obviously you can use it. I really think people just like the covers, think they work better for skating, etc. Or want their programs not to get blocked on Youtube, which is a slightly different issue.

Yeah, I was going to say, we have also seen Gilles & Poirier do Beatles, Bourne & Kraatz do MJ and I know there are plenty of other examples of both artists. I think that the covers are for other reasons like trying to be different or about tempo of the music or just because the skater likes the music.

ETA, Navka & Kostomorov's Michael Jackson was the original too.

 

[VGThuy]

Funny enough in this topic, I know N/K’s 2002 Michael Jackson FD was purposefully muted by an uploader due to copyright issues but not because of Jackson but because of George Winston since they also used a Winston piece for that FD.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I’m sorry that it upsets people but the people that developed the music have rights too. Those rights are not any less just because your skater happens to be skating to the music. Would you like it if people took your property and did with it what they wanted without compensating you?

I don't have a problem with Joe Hisaishi—or any person who makes creative content—turning down requests for usage. It's no different than when I've said no to show offers, or which platforms (if any) to stream my music on. I've had to get my lawyer to send C&Ds to people who have stolen my photographs. Copyright/IP allows me to have the agency to control my work and how I want it to be shown.

I should clarify that I'm not a lawyer, but as a musician and someone who has spent 15+ years being involved with radio, I'm pretty well versed in the particulars of copyright and music licensing here in the US. Hopefully my perspective helps other folks understanding, that's all. If any of these terms are unclear, please let me know, happy to clarify. A couple quick notes:

• Using a cover doesn't make it any easier for a competitor; the choice to use a cover is most likely driven by an aesthetic decision. Perhaps you like the message of, say, AC/DC's "It's a Long Way to the Top," but the arrangement isn't going to serve your needs, so you find a softer arrangement.
• Still, the material that is being covered is still owned by the rightsholder. Technically if you are recording a cover, you still need to obtain clearance from the copyright owner of that material (unless it is in the public domain). 75 countries, excluding the US, pay royalties on the public performance of the cover (in addition to the songwriter/composer/publisher), for those keeping score.
• In the US, this where those blanket licenses from ASCAP/BMI come in handy, as there would be no other way to collect royalties for public performance (though it would only be the s/c/p who benefits; there is a bill floating around the House to introduce public performance royalties for even people covering other people's material).
• Stuff being thrown up on YT isn't suddenly free from copyright and licensing restrictions. YT has a Content ID system that allows them to track/collect royalties, as well as allow artists/rightsholders control over stuff on their platform. On top of this, you have the added complexity of resharing broadcast content that may be restricted by their own licensing/usage rights.

Anywho, I find this whole thing with Reynolds fascinating because it's not clear what the solution should be. Skate a new program? Reuse an old one? Withdraw entirely? And looking at the bigger picture, what does this mean moving forward for skaters—how well-versed should a skater's coaching/choreography team be in the particulars of copyright/IP? Should skaters start getting sync agreements (what tv/film/commercials use) to clear their material?

(Ugh, sorry for the long post.)

 

[manhn]

I am really sorry to hear this about Reynolds. It sends such a scary precedent. I know Reynolds is not a beloved figure here, but he works just as hard and spends just as much time and money as anyone else. Why would a skater do anything original when they later have to scrap it due to copyright issues? Might as well do the 1833039th version of Carmen.

 

[Rukia]

In this season it's an even harder issue with the time change. He can't just go back to an old program without re-editing the music and redoing the entire program layout. What a stinky situation to be in.

 

[made_in_canada]

I am really sorry to hear this about Reynolds. It sends such a scary precedent. I know Reynolds is not a beloved figure here, but he works just as hard and spends just as much time and money as anyone else. Why would a skater do anything original when they later have to scrap it due to copyright issues? Might as well do the 1833039th version of Carmen.

Yeah, he's far from my favourite skater but it's very unfortunate. For it to be an issue beyond what the blanket licenses would cover I'm assuming it must be something about that particular piece that the rights holder is objecting to its use?

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Why would a skater do anything original when they later have to scrap it due to copyright issues? Might as well do the 1833039th version of Carmen.

DING DING DING. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road we'd start seeing even more programs set to music in the public domain.

 

[floridaice]

This may be a stupid question, but do you have to skate to music?

 

[Hanna]

People skate to Joe Hisaishi stuff all the time. I wonder why Kevin's having issues!

I'd like to repeat this question! Where's the consistency in this or am I missing something? Plenty of skaters have used e.g. Howl's Moving Castle and Princess Mononoke over the last 10 years.

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting @rosewood's informational post (thanks again):

https://victorysportsnews.com/articles/4441/original
Here is an interview with Keiichi Yano who is the music editor of Hanyu's Hope & Legacy as well as SEIMEI. The music editor is a very well known person in this sport in Japan. According to him, Joe Hisaishi doesn't like his multiple musics to be edited/combined into one piece since every music has its own concept. Thus the editor and team Hanyu had to try hard to get an exceptional permission from Hisaishi so that Hanyu can use two musics of Hisaishi's in his Hope & Legacy program. Prior to Hanyu's case, it was well known that Takahiko Kozuka couldn't get a permission to use Studio [Ghibli's] original source of the musics (composed by Hisaishi) and Kozuka had to re-record musics by himself when he skated to Fantasia for Nausicaa.

BTW, the interview with Keiichi Yano is a very interesting one talking about the history of music editions in this sport in Japan.

Here is another interview. It's with Joe Hisaishi and it's on JASRAC official site. He says he wants to respect Japanese law even when he works with people outside of Japan.
http://www.jasrac.or.jp/sakka/vol_21/inner3.html

ETA:
Article about Hisaishi's concept for Hope & Legacy (original music), it's on the lower half of the page.
https://hibikihajime.com/information/21798/

My guess is that Reynolds' second GP being in Japan had something to do with this problem coming up now and not at Skate America (his FS video still plays with audio on YouTube).

 

[jamesy]

DING DING DING. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road we'd start seeing even more programs set to music in the public domain.

I can’t wait for Camptown Races short programs.

Doo-dah! Doo-dah!

 

[quartz]

This may be a stupid question, but do you have to skate to music?

hmmm....Perhaps allezfred would like to petition for skating programs to be performed to slam poetry instead?

 

[overedge]

This may be a stupid question, but do you have to skate to music?

Gary Beacon did a fantastic show program to a soundtrack of bird songs....

 

[NinjaTurtles]

This may be a stupid question, but do you have to skate to music?

Rule 343 says all programs must be skated to music.

 

[RoseRed]

DING DING DING. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road we'd start seeing even more programs set to music in the public domain.

Classical music isn't exempt from copyright actually. The specific performance or recording is typically copyrighted. Of course, you can have your own recording made.

 

[quartz]

Adam Rippon might get a singing career after all.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Classical music isn't exempt from copyright actually. The specific performance or recording is typically copyrighted. Of course, you can have your own recording made.

The performer might receive royalties through public performance, but the composition may be in the public domain.

 

[overedge]

Adam Rippon might get a singing career after all.

Emanuel Sandhu skating to his own "hit single"

 

[VGThuy]

The only way I see this being a mass problem is if figure skating becomes so popular that athletes and the sport make a lot of money out of it and music artists and the companies start asking for a cut or to cease & desist using their music. That said, this is where I can see various countries' laws regarding fair use and public licensing coming into play saying that they have a blanket license to allow a skater to use that music in this way. Individual artists can still step in and demand a skater stop using their piece for any reason (like when DomShabs got that cease & desist letter because one artist did not want their piece of music used for THAT program).

It seems Kevin will only have this issue in Japan, but it's still unfortunate for him. I'd still like to know more about what's going on. If Japan has blanket licensing the way the U.S. has, if there is an actual legal way for Hisaishi to stop Reynolds from editing and using his music even in Japan, or if Reynolds is just respecting his wishes even if he legally can still use the music because Reynolds has respect for the composer and doesn't want to do something that upsets him.

 

[RoseRed]

The performer might receive royalties through public performance, but the composition may be in the public domain.

Yeah the composition would be public domain, but my point was that just because a piece is very old doesn't mean the recording has no copyright. In Canada anyways, there is copyright on the performer's performance, the sound recording, etc. So you could still get it blocked on Youtube, for example.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, I thought even covers would have their own copyright issues as their recording in of itself is a protected property.

 

[sus2850]

I do not understand that Reynolds did not clear the rights to the music. As he is such a big fan of things Japanese shouldn‘t he have known about the composers‘ issues with editing his music?