Was Elvis Stojko in fact overscored?

[savchenkoboss]

At the time of his career the North American hype was that Stojko was underscored and the judges just didnt "get his style". In hindsight though was he in fact overscored with a false perception he was underscored due to his arguably being robbed of a higher placing at the 92 Olympics and probably of the gold at the 94 Olympics?

Lets look at some events in his career.

95 worlds- A battle between Eldredge and Stojko. Both had a fall, but Eldredge threw in the 2nd triple axel in the final seconds he fell on earlier, while Stojko threw in a triple lutz-triple toe. I would argue a late triple axel beautifully done is still more impressive than a late triple-triple, even if both are very impressive. Eldredge had better spins and better artistry too. Stojko even won 3 of his 6 judges on artistic marks, 3 judges who tied them technically and gave Stojko a higher artistic mark. Eldredge probably should have won worlds this year, and not Stojko.

96-97 Grand Prix final- This particular win by Stojko was ridiculous IMO. He did the quad-triple but fell on a triple axel, missed a triple loop, and had his worst choreographed program ever. Eldredge was perfect even though he didnt try the quad, and his program in every other way- jumps, spins, choroegraphy, speed, was far superior to Stojko's, minus the quad, and Stojko's mistakes more than negated the quad combo IMO. Urmanov did a clean quad and doubled a couple jumps, but overall had a cleaner and better presented program than Stojko. IMO this was strictly a home court result (GPF was in Canada, Bourne & Kraatz also had a controversial win to some over Krylova & Ovsiannikov in the dance event).

97 worlds- Stojko fully deserved to win the long program but since he was 4th in the short and Eldredge definitely deserved to win the short over Urmanov, Eldredge should have defended his title due to being robbed of winning the short program.

97-98 Grand Prix final- Stojko fell on his quad and had many other shaky landings and still took 2nd over Eldredge who skated cleanly which he did not deserve. Should have been 3rd or lower.

98 Olympics- Stojko should have been 4th in the short behind Eldredge who had better spins and Yagudin who had higher jumps and superior presentation, which due to his 3rd place in the long program would have dropped him to the bronze behind Candelero overall.

99 Skate Canada- He landed only 4 triples here and took 2nd to Yagudin which was crazy when many other guys landed 6 or 7.

99-2000 Grand Prix final- Goebel and Abt landed many more jumps than him and he still took 2nd to Plushenko, another gift.

2000 worlds- He fell on the quad in every program and was still given the silver to Yagudin. In the short he was put over many guys who skated cleanly even though he fell on his quad. Had he placed lower in the short he would have been off the podium. 2nd in the long was probably right given how everyone else skated.

So it seems he was regularly held up and overscored, with Eldredge usually the biggest victim of Stojko's overscoring, and it was part out of pity for being robbed at the 92 and 94 Olympics. And Stojko helped this myth by milking his supposed underscoring to the media, even though he knew perfectly well he was conning them to perpetuate the myth of his being underscored, in order to bully judges to continue overscoring and holding him up.

 

[blue_idealist]

Perhaps the argument should instead be that Eldredge was underscored...

It's hard to say if Stojko was overscored or not, since I wasn't an adult during his era and don't remember that many details of the competitions. I just remember being a fangirl and being happy if he was on the podium or if he won (although I did cry when he lost SC to Yagudin in '99). Under IJS, I don't think he'd have the titles he got back in the '90s and early '00s, but it wasn't IJS then, so yeah, hard to say. Of course, he might have skated differently under IJS but you could say that about any 6.0 skater.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Perhaps the argument should instead be that Eldredge was underscored...

It's hard to say if Stojko was overscored or not, since I wasn't an adult during his era and don't remember that many details of the competitions. I just remember being a fangirl and being happy if he was on the podium or if he won (although I did cry when he lost SC to Yagudin in '99). Under IJS, I don't think he'd have the titles he got back in the '90s and early '00s, but it wasn't IJS then, so yeah, hard to say. Of course, he might have skated differently under IJS but you could say that about any 6.0 skater.

I remember that Skate Canada. Yagudin had some mistakes but landed 6 triples, 2 triple axels, a triple axel-triple toe, and Stojko had only 4 triples- a triple axel, triple lutz, triple flip, and triple salchow, yet the crowd booed the result of Stojko not winning, LOL! :i and Honda both landed 6 triples and were put below Stojko. They also booed in the short program when both skated cleanly and Yagudin ( who was reigning World Champion at the time) won on a 6-3 split. Canadian crowds are so biased.

 

[tony]

I remember that Skate Canada. Yagudin had some mistakes but landed 6 triples, 2 triple axels, a triple axel-triple toe, and Stojko had only 4 triples- a triple axel, triple lutz, triple flip, and triple salchow, yet the crowd booed the result of Stojko not winning, LOL! :i and Honda both landed 6 triples and were put below Stojko. They also booed in the short program when both skated cleanly and Yagudin ( who was reigning World Champion at the time) won on a 6-3 split. Canadian crowds are so biased.

That’s the Skate Canada that Yagudin tripped on during his forward spiral, no? I remember him being messy but I didn’t think his win was wrong.

 

[savchenkoboss]

That’s the Skate Canada that Yagudin tripped on during his forward spiral, no? I remember him being messy but I didn’t think his win was wrong.

Yes you are right he did, but still doesnt negate doing many more jumps and having much better artistry to boot than Stojko. I guess I could semi understand the dumb casual fan not understanding that but Canadian crowds still suck typically when it comes to their pro Canadian bias.

 

[SmallFairy]

At 97 worlds I don't think it's that obvious that Eldredge should have beat Urmanov in the sp. And when Urmanov had to withdraw, that moved everyone up a spot.

But I guess you can say that Eldredge was indeed underscores on some occasions during his career. He was never the most exciting skater though.

 

[savchenkoboss]

At 97 worlds I don't think it's that obvious that Eldredge should have beat Urmanov in the sp. And when Urmanov had to withdraw, that moved everyone up a spot.

But I guess you can say that Eldredge was indeed underscores on some occasions during his career. He was never the most exciting skater though.

Urmanov should have been 3rd in the short behind both Eldredge and Kulik. Urmanov is another skater who was always overscored, just like Stojko. It is ironic a skater like Stojko who was perennially overscored and gifted medals he didnt deserve many times in his career was robbed of the Olympic Gold in 94 by Urmanov, which indicates what a held up skater Urmanov was too (it wasnt just as obvious for him as he usually splatted too much for the judges to hold him up).

 

[Meoima]

Urmanov should have been 3rd in the short behind both Eldredge and Kulik. Urmanov is another skater who was always overscored, just like Stojko. It is ironic a skater like Stojko who was perennially overscored and gifted medals he didnt deserve many times in his career was robbed of the Olympic Gold in 94 by Urmanov, which indicates what a held up skater Urmanov was too (it wasnt just as obvious for him as he usually splatted too much for the judges to hold him up).

People prefered Urmanov because he was more elegant.

 

[savchenkoboss]

People prefered Urmanov because he was more elegant.

His spins were horrendous though and his footwork mediocre. In terms of technical elements he wasnt strong in anything except for jumps.

Artistry is more subjective but most of his programs seemed to be fluff and lacking any construing theme or meaning behind them, and full of posing stops and silly movements. Atleast Stojko had a defined style of his own.

As for why Eldredge CLEARLY deserved to win the short at the 97 worlds over Urmanov, his combo was much stronger, the other 2 jumps atleast equal, and all 3 of his spins were light years stronger, and while Urmanov's skate was excellent it wasnt better in anyway really, let alone to compensate for being much worse in 4 of the 8 elements. Kulik should have also been over Urmanov in the short as his jumps were breathtaking and footwork sequences clearly superior, and his choreography was the most complex of all the men. If anyone has a case for winning the short over Eldredge it would be Kulik. Anyone with a brain knows the only reason Urmanov won the short at the 97 worlds was he skated almost last, and since others like Eldredge and Stojko skated almost first.

Also even with Urmanov's WD the short program results would have held, they would have not have changed. Eldredge would still have held a lead over Stojko to place 2nd in the LP and win overall.

 

[alchemy void]

But I guess you can say that Eldredge was indeed underscores on some occasions during his career. He was never the most exciting skater though.

Not the most exciting, but one of the sexiest!

 

[Bigbird]

Every single time.

 

[blue_idealist]

Yes you are right he did, but still doesnt negate doing many more jumps and having much better artistry to boot than Stojko. I guess I could semi understand the dumb casual fan not understanding that but Canadian crowds still suck typically when it comes to their pro Canadian bias.

Yeah, I had Canadian bias that day. Like I didn't care if someone else did more, I just wanted Elvis to win no matter what he did, aside from sliding on his belly across the ice.

 

[bardtoob]

At the time of his career the North American hype was that Stojko was underscored and the judges just didnt "get his style".

North American hype? ... Are you serious? There was no such thing during Elvis's career. The US had an intense rivalry, although friendly. Canadian judges did not help American skaters and American judges did not help Canadian skaters.

 

[savchenkoboss]

North American hype? ... Are you serious? There was no such thing during Elvis's career. The US had an intense rivalry, although friendly. Canadian judges did not help American skaters and American judges did not help Canadian skaters.

Sale & Pelletier's 2nd gold medal is virtually only because of the U.S media pressure.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Not the most exciting, but one of the sexiest!

Amen! Todd and Elvis were two of the rare north American male skaters who brung raw testerostone to the ice every single time they stepped out. With-out their man power, I believe that Ross Minor nor Max Aaron nor Keegan Messing would of chose figure skating as a sport, instead they would of done some-thing considered more "macho" like gymnastics or diving.

Elvis like Keegan proved that good thing's come with short packages, my wife and I are both excited to see the legacy of these "real" men thrust the sport forward. Its one of the main reason's we continue to be athletic supporter's of skating, now off to watch that kung fu karate chop sequins that has served me well on so many nights both when I was at sea but also when my wife is away at her ladies golf weekends.

 

[bardtoob]

Sale & Pelletier's 2nd gold medal is virtually only because of the U.S media pressure.

Sale & Pelletier are a pairs team while Elvis was a men's singles skater.

Elvis placed 8th in Salt Lake City in his last Olympics.

The Olympic Gold Medal went to a Ukrainian or Russian at all four Olympics in which Stojko competed.

Between the 1992 Olympics and the 2002 Olympics there was hype regarding another discipline for maybe three days in his career between February 11, 2002 and February 14, 2002.

Did you give any thought to this at all?

 

[bardtoob]

Todd and Elvis were two of the rare north American male skaters who brung raw testerostone to the ice every single time they stepped out.

Elvis, yes, Todd, no.

Whatever you want to believe about Todd, he did get beaten by the first openly gay male figure skater in US history, who was also very poor in comparison to Todd, at Jr. Worlds and US Nationals because the gay guy was more athletic.

Also, Todd NEVER progressed the sport. The one time he won Worlds he did dated jump content that Boitano, the now openly gay figure skater, did better 8 years earlier when winning the Olympic Gold medal. Todd never landed so much as a 4T. On the other hand, Timothy Goebel, now married to a man, landed the most quads at the 2002 Olympics and was the most consistent US Men's skater with quads prior to Nathan Chen.

 

[Marco]

I think both were over-rated and over-scored.

Elvis' skating is very elements driven and there is no program or concept so to speak. His basics is not the most solid amongst his competitors which included Todd, Alexei and Ilia. If Kurt hadn't retired, Skate Canada wouldn't be in such a hurry to promote their next champion. Also not a big fan of how they mocked Alexei after he won.

Todd produced a much more complete package but has next to no choreography in his programs but for crossovers and crossovers and, more crossovers. Still, his skating was strong enough that I would give him a 2 triple or 1 quad advantage over Elvis.

Alexei and Ilia might have poor spins but they moved around well and had interesting programs. They didn't skate well all the time but when they did, they were very competitive (just like when they won the Olympics). They both deserved their OGMs.

Heck, if Eric (Millot) had been more consistent with his 3axel, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I loved Millot's skating. It is so sad he never won a world medal. His long program at the 95 worlds was amazing and surely would have won a medal, perhaps the gold, had he not blown the short. It is crazy his excellent short program at the 96 worlds was placed below Galindo and Cousins.

 

[Seerek]

In IJS, Eric Millot would have received among the highest components in choreography, interpretation and maybe transitions. Zagorodniuk might have been helped as well.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

My favourite Elvis Stojko program was his Far And Away free skate.

His later years of dirk bike tributes did nothing for me.

 

[Winnipeg]

Not the most exciting, but one of the sexiest!

OMG, no way not even CLOSE!

 

[Winnipeg]

Elvis was not over scored.

I thought he should have won OGM in 94 but not in 98 - Kulik deserved it hands down.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Elvis was not over scored.

I thought he should have won OGM in 94 but not in 98 - Kulik deserved it hands down.

If you will note I agreed he should have won in 94. And he then was overscored a BUNCH of other times and events outside the Olympics as pity marks for not winning in 94 which is not right. There are more events in skating besides the Olympics believe it or not, but he milked his controversial loss in 94 for all it was worth including many future pity wins/medals he didn't deserve from the judges.

 

[Amantide]

He was never my cup of tea. Just didn't like his style, but I always admired him as an athlete and I was happy to see him win the silver in Nagano. Loved his determination.

 

[SmallFairy]

Not the most exciting, but one of the sexiest!

Sometimes I'm truly doubting you dear

who brung raw testerostone to the ice every single time they stepped out.

I'm dying!

 

[WillyElliot]

I think both were over-rated and over-scored.

Elvis' skating is very elements driven and there is no program or concept so to speak. His basics is not the most solid amongst his competitors which included Todd, Alexei and Ilia. If Kurt hadn't retired, Skate Canada wouldn't be in such a hurry to promote their next champion. Also not a big fan of how they mocked Alexei after he won.

Todd produced a much more complete package but has next to no choreography in his programs but for crossovers and crossovers and, more crossovers. Still, his skating was strong enough that I would give him a 2 triple or 1 quad advantage over Elvis.

Alexei and Ilia might have poor spins but they moved around well and had interesting programs. They didn't skate well all the time but when they did, they were very competitive (just like when they won the Olympics). They both deserved their OGMs.

Heck, if Eric (Millot) had been more consistent with his 3axel, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Exactly. I look at the 94-98 quad as unfortunate. Elvis had jumps and nothing else. Todd had no quad but great spins and his performance level was meh. Alexei sometimes landed all the jumps, awful spins (like, REALLY awful), had the ability to be excellent on the 2nd mark. At least Ilia had jumps and incredible performance going for him (I loved his R/J program, wow). I was so relieved when that quad was over and my favorite of the quad, Ilia, won the OGM. They all had different strenghths and weaknesses, so I never really thought any of them were more or less underscored.

And Marco, you opened up a distant wound!! Eric Millot. *sigh* I adored his skating. His performance at 95 Worlds so wonderful, and yet he still didn't get the marks. How can anyone explain him placing BEHIND Candeloro???

Millot 95Worlds: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8L4RrLtBlwc I would have put him at least second in the LP. Gorgeous skating skills (unheard from a French skater whose Fed apparently preferred the gymnastics and tricks than actual skating ability... Gosselin who could do 3lutz, Candeloro, Surya, the pink panther guy...).

 

[Amantide]

At least Ilia had jumps and incredible performance going for him (I loved his R/J program, wow). I was so relieved when that quad was over and my favorite of the quad, Ilia, won the OGM. They all had different strenghths and weaknesses, so I never really thought any of them were more or less underscored.

Ilia was my favorite by far. He's still among my top favorites today.
He underachieved, IMO, if you compare it with his qualities and capability. Well, he also retired early, but I was thrilled when he won that OGM! I love R&J but my favorite program of his was SP "Faust".

 

[savchenkoboss]

I dont know why Ilia didnt go to the 98 worlds atleast. He would have won in a cakewalk.

 

[tony]

I dont know why Ilia didnt go to the 98 worlds atleast. He would have won in a cakewalk.

So it goes, he had a back injury before the Olympics and was able to get through the event because he was so hyped by it but then after the high of that event, it started to hurt him again enough to withdraw from Worlds.