Someday could a skater ever be considered best ever without an Olympic Gold

[MAXSwagg]

The Grand Prix Final has become more prestigious thanks to the quality of the men's events over the past 5-6 years, IMO. It is certainly much more prestigious than Europeans and definitely Four Continents. 2015 GPF still remains one of the greatest men's events of the past decade (maybe even longer).

 

[savchenkoboss]

The Grand Prix Final has become more prestigious thanks to the quality of the men's events over the past 5-6 years, IMO. It is certainly much more prestigious than Europeans and definitely Four Continents. 2015 GPF still remains one of the greatest men's events of the past decade (maybe even longer).

And we on this board spend over half the season excited about the grand prix and the whole build up to the Grand Prix final. Thus I dont know how anyone in good conscious can underplay its importance.

 

[Icetigger]

Plus the Grand Prix (of which the final is but part, which doesn't seem to be remembered) is the biggest event of the year, in anyway that the biggest can be measured.........

 

[savchenkoboss]

Plus the Grand Prix (of which the final is but part, which doesn't seem to be remembered) is the biggest event of the year, in anyway that the biggest can be measured.........

Honestly I remember everyones right to their own opinion but I honestly think the people who poo poo the grand prix final as if it were nothing are all fans of various skaters (Javier Fernandez, Virtue & Moir, Kwan, Duhamel & Radford, Uno, Papadakis & Cizeron) who didnt do as well there as expected/hoped and if their favorites had a great record there suddenly it would be "oh the grand prix final is an amazing event, it is such a huge part of the skating season", LOL!

 

[VGThuy]

Nobody is poo-pooing the GPF but responding to some poster's over-importance of it while trying to argue it's better than Worlds because it benefits points people want to make when they create threads making needless arguments. The GPF is very important and it's the half-way point where most of the top skaters from all continents get together to try to show people what they have. For skaters wishing to move up, that's where they can change the narrative for themselves and for other skaters it's where they can reestablish dominance to intimidate the competition. However, trying to downplay Worlds (like savchenkoboss/judgejudy tried to do) is foolhardy. Also, Euros and 4CC may not have the same make up but they are ISU championships and like the GPF, both of those play similar roles in trying to form narratives before Worlds/Olympics.

I agree that the GPF, especially in Mens, has had some of the best skating I've seen, but the fact that that the same competitors falter a bit at Worlds show how important Worlds are. They really WANT that title/medal. You continue thinking what you want (even if I'm not convinced you really think that and are instead just using it to bash specific skaters to get a rise out of their fandom because you like your previous moniker judgejudy needs to be the center of attention and have people respond to you) but it's pretty clear what title most skaters really want to win and hold the most esteem for in a season.

Anyway, it's clear in your response to me that you're not even presenting these ideas in good faith and were ready to attack specific skaters and their fans. You're still living in a world where Irina and Michelle and every other rivalry is alive and well and can't move on. Deal with the fact that nothing you ever post on FSU has any meaning or merit or bearing on any narrative no matter how many times you post the same arguments and how many times you come back from being banned to start the same crap again.

 

[antmanb]

Yeah, I wouldn’t count world pros, sorry, I meant to use it’s new title:gpf, toward goat ranking. No one ever put out a PR saying they’re going to skip this year’s worlds or Olys but will be at the gpf.

While Stolbova/Klimov didn't put out the PR in advance - they did win the GPF and then decide to skip worlds

I'm sure they still kick themselves because that was their best shot at a world title.

 

[ZilphaK]

Anyways, yes. You need to win the Olympics to be deemed GOAT. Some of my favourite skaters have never won it. My life has been so hard because of it. I will cry like an English soccer fan.

As a Washington Caps fan and an Eagles fan, I tell you, you just gotta believe.

And cmon, it's Michelle Kwan. ?

 

[berthesghost]

While Stolbova/Klimov didn't put out the PR in advance - they did win the GPF and then decide to skip worlds

I'm sure they still kick themselves because that was their best shot at a world title.

thanks, i totally didn’t remember that. But according to wiki they skipped worlds after taking silver at gpf and then won gpf the next year and came in 4th at worlds. I guess it’s still up for debate if that was a winning strategy or not.

 

[antmanb]

thanks, i totally didn’t remember that. But according to wiki they skipped worlds after taking silver at gpf and then won gpf the next year and came in 4th at worlds. I guess it’s still up for debate if that was a winning strategy or not.

I get my Barcelona GPFs mixed up I was at the one that they won which was after they skipped not before my bad!

 

[berthesghost]

I get my Barcelona GPFs mixed up I was at the one that they won which was after they skipped not before my bad!

still it’s interesting vis a vie your idea that ‘15 was their best shot at winning. They seem to be saying that it wasn’t because their tech wasn’t high enough. Idk as I wasn’t paying much attention at the time. They did seem to do much better next season but perhaps got derailed by injury and illness. I went to ‘16 worlds but honestly don’t remember much from the pairs LP

 

[antmanb]

still it’s interesting vis a vie your idea that ‘15 was their best shot at winning. They seem to be saying that it wasn’t because their tech wasn’t high enough. Idk as I wasn’t paying much attention at the time. They did seem to do much better next season but perhaps got derailed by injury and illness. I went to ‘16 worlds but honestly don’t remember much from the pairs LP

I think worlds 2015 was their biggest chance - though given how D&R skated I don't think they would have won. At the GPF they both skated cleanly (I think they each had minor erros in the LP on a SBS jump) so fairly even but the judges were giving D&R more on the GOE for their elements.

The GPF that S&K won, D&R had a fall on the throw lutz in the SP plus minor issues with the SBS 3Lz and were in third going into the LP, but then aced the LP landing the throw 4S but I think one of them stepped out of the Lutz, S&K were basically clean but one singled the middle double in their SBS jumps and they still lost to D&R in the free but won overall.

 

[Icetigger]

The GPF that S&K won......... S&K were basically clean but one singled the middle double in their SBS jumps and they still lost to D&R in the free but won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/

You want to factcheck that.........

 

[antmanb]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/

You want to factcheck that.........

God I don't know what's wrong with me today - I had too many windows open and thought I was looking at the right one.

Sorry my mistake!

 

[Icetigger]

God I don't know what's wrong with me today - I had too many windows open and thought I was looking at the right one.

Sorry my mistake!

I seem to remember Duhamel sitting in the kiss and cry after the free chatting to Smirnov saying "is it a world record" after S/K had finished, so that's why I remember that it was the winning free......

ISU protocol sheet cross-contamination- we've all done it!

 

[savchenkoboss]

still it’s interesting vis a vie your idea that ‘15 was their best shot at winning. They seem to be saying that it wasn’t because their tech wasn’t high enough. Idk as I wasn’t paying much attention at the time. They did seem to do much better next season but perhaps got derailed by injury and illness. I went to ‘16 worlds but honestly don’t remember much from the pairs LP

They couldnt have really won in 2015. Not enough tech. difficulty to challenge Duhamel & Radford and worlds where in China and Sui & Han skated better than they did at the 2016 worlds. There best chance would have clearly been 2016.

 

[Marco]

I definitely think Euros / 4CCs as more important, even the ISU thinks so, as these are considered championship events, but GPF isn't.

 

[Marco]

Also, I disagree that winning worlds 5 times straight is more impressive than 5 wins broken up, because I believe that the second is more consistent with winning against a broader group of competitors than the first. After all, Michelle won her 5th world title against a group that wasn't even competing at her first.

Word. Plus it implies much better longeivity to be atop across 8 years (with gold in 5 years and silver in the other 3 years).

Still, I maintain my original stance that "best ever' is skating related, not necessarily hardware related.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Europeans is basically just a playground for Javi, the Russian girls, and PapCiz...

 

[DreamSkates]

Well, there are a lot of people who consider Kwan the best ever. I'm not sure what percentage it would be.

She is considered a figure skating legend. That is "the best".

 

[Kmeki]

Davis & White's 5 Grand Prix final titles is an underrated feat. That is a record that will probably last awhile, half a century perhaps. And as I already said contrary to what some believe (I respect those who feel otherwise, but I dont budge on my own view on this as too much of my interest in every skating season since the event was introduced is centred around the build up to the GPF) I personally strongly feel GPF is a major event, a strong 3rd biggest event after Olympics and Worlds. They also did well in head to head against a team who might today be the consensus GOAT- Virtue & Moir. In fact they went unbeaten against absolutely prime Virtue & Moir for a whole 2 years, and beat them atleast once every season for their final 6 seasons together. So if V&M are the best ever as most seem to think, how can a team who was kicking their butts so regularly not rank very highly near the very top too. They probably deserve to be top 5 all time, if not even top 3.

I don’t know if fans will ever agree on a GOAT no matter how great any competitor is, there will always be a lot of “well actuallys” but the debates are certainly interesting.


I’m confused about one thing though, in a previous post you stated Virtue & Moir were in their absolute prime when they skated against P&C in 2016/2017 and now they were in their absolute prime when they skated against DW (between 2010-14?)? How long was V&M’s prime? When do you consider V&M’s prime was? Tessa struggled with compartment syndrome for much of her career, had two surgeries and missed a large chunk of two seasons following those surgeries.
I feel like these debates never leave room for perspective. For instance when DW beat V&M at worlds in 2011, that was V&M’s 2nd competition of the season, they didn’t even complete their first. That’s not taking anything away from DW they certainly deservedly won their title but I wouldn’t say V&M was in their prime then. I guess my quibble is the argument that both these teams encountered V&M at their “prime” and bested them. Especially when you consider V&M competed against PC 5 times and only lost once.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don’t know if fans will ever agree on a GOAT no matter how great any competitor is, there will always be a lot of “well actuallys” but the debates are certainly interesting.


I’m confused about one thing though, in a previous post you stated Virtue & Moir were in their absolute prime when they skated against P&C in 2016/2017 and now they were in their absolute prime when they skated against DW (between 2010-14?)? How long was V&M’s prime? When do you consider V&M’s prime was? Tessa struggled with compartment syndrome for much of her career, had two surgeries and missed a large chunk of two seasons following those surgeries.
I feel like these debates never leave room for perspective. For instance when DW beat V&M at worlds in 2011, that was V&M’s 2nd competition of the season, they didn’t even complete their first. That’s not taking anything away from DW they certainly deservedly won their title but I wouldn’t say V&M was in their prime then. I guess my quibble is the argument that both these teams encountered V&M at their “prime” and bested them. Especially when you consider V&M competed against PC 5 times and only lost once.

I think V&M were definitely in their prime all of 2010-2018, but hit their absolute peak in 2017-2018. They were even better in their comeback than they were previous, I think nearly all their ardent fans even agree on this, but it would also be almost impossible to say they werent fully in their primes from the 2010 Olympics onwards. So I do think Davis & White regularly faced prime V&M and did very well against them overall (considering many are now saying V&M are the GOATs), but Papadakis & Cizeron had the even tougher task as they faced what in retrospect was the all time peak V&M moreso than D&W had to, while still on the ascent themselves.

And I do think many skaters have long primes, especialy ice dancers or pairs skaters.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Nobody is poo-pooing the GPF but responding to some poster's over-importance of it while trying to argue it's better than Worlds because it benefits points people want to make when they create threads making needless arguments. The GPF is very important and it's the half-way point where most of the top skaters from all continents get together to try to show people what they have. For skaters wishing to move up, that's where they can change the narrative for themselves and for other skaters it's where they can reestablish dominance to intimidate the competition. However, trying to downplay Worlds (like savchenkoboss/judgejudy tried to do) is foolhardy. Also, Euros and 4CC may not have the same make up but they are ISU championships and like the GPF, both of those play similar roles in trying to form narratives before Worlds/Olympics.

I agree that the GPF, especially in Mens, has had some of the best skating I've seen, but the fact that that the same competitors falter a bit at Worlds show how important Worlds are. They really WANT that title/medal. You continue thinking what you want (even if I'm not convinced you really think that and are instead just using it to bash specific skaters to get a rise out of their fandom because you like your previous moniker judgejudy needs to be the center of attention and have people respond to you) but it's pretty clear what title most skaters really want to win and hold the most esteem for in a season.

Anyway, it's clear in your response to me that you're not even presenting these ideas in good faith and were ready to attack specific skaters and their fans. You're still living in a world where Irina and Michelle and every other rivalry is alive and well and can't move on. Deal with the fact that nothing you ever post on FSU has any meaning or merit or bearing on any narrative no matter how many times you post the same arguments and how many times you come back from being banned to start the same crap again.

You appear to be a very angry and hateful person. You should learn to be considerate, kind, and compassionate the way I am. I always respect others opinions, even those which differ from mine, and treat all people with respect, consideration, and kindness at all times. That is something you could also strive for. This is a place to discuss our opinions on skating and nothing more, and a positive, healthy, and friendly environment and discord with our peers is what we should all strive for. Not angst, nastiness, and confrontationalness.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Why are V&M and P&C in discussion but not Davis and White? I think D&W won the GPF five times, so they definitely should rate!

I am just curious on one thing though, you dont seem to rate the GPF much by your own comments (I do but I have been clear about that in my own views). So if that is the case, why is D&W winning the GPF 5 times even a big deal from your perspective? From mine it defintely is, but I have noted I do rate the GPF as a substantial event, just a bit below worlds, but from your comments I didnt think you viewed it that weay.

 

[sap5]

As a Washington Caps fan and an Eagles fan, I tell you, you just gotta believe.

And cmon, it's Michelle Kwan. ?

E-A-G-L-E-S!!! (And now back to your regularly scheduled program).

 

[savchenkoboss]

E-A-G-L-E-S!!! (And now back to your regularly scheduled program).

I was at a movie theatre with friends the day of the Super Bowl final. It was the VIP section of Cineplex. Everyone in the theatre was cheering for the Eagles except 2 Patriots fans who sat in the corner. It was pandamonium everytime the Eagles made a good play or score and the Pats a mistake, and chaos at the end when they won. The 2 Patriots fans just left quickly at the end.

 

[sap5]

Honestly I remember everyones right to their own opinion but I honestly think the people who poo poo the grand prix final as if it were nothing are all fans of various skaters (Javier Fernandez, Virtue & Moir, Kwan, Duhamel & Radford, Uno, Papadakis & Cizeron) who didnt do as well there as expected/hoped and if their favorites had a great record there suddenly it would be "oh the grand prix final is an amazing event, it is such a huge part of the skating season", LOL!

And cue Sandra Bezic at 13:28: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HSl_3gP4Ew

"At the end of the day, the Grand Prix is NOTHING. Nobody's going to be doing features on the winners of the Grand Prix Final next year, even, let alone 4 years from now."

 

[savchenkoboss]

And cue Sandra Bezic at 13:28: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HSl_3gP4Ew

"At the end of the day, the Grand Prix is NOTHING. Nobody's going to be doing features on the winners of the Grand Prix Final next year, even, let alone 4 years from now."

Like anyone cares what that dried up prune thinks. She is so irrelevant now the only ones who want to talk to her anymore are Dave Lease and his boyfriend and they would take a hobo who was a skating fan if they would be willing to do an interview.

 

[Icetigger]

And cue Sandra Bezic at 13:28: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HSl_3gP4Ew

"At the end of the day, the Grand Prix is NOTHING. Nobody's going to be doing features on the winners of the Grand Prix Final next year, even, let alone 4 years from now."

Who cares what Sandra Bezic thinks......

 

[VGThuy]

Well, on that note, who cares what any of us think.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Who cares what Sandra Bezic thinks......

The ironic thing is that argument applies much more to her beloved World Pros which in a few years all but the oldies will forget ever existed. The Challenge of Champions and maybe even cheese events like the U.S Open and Ryder Championships are more remembered as Pro Events than the Landover event these days.