Christine Brennan USA Today launches war on Zagitova!

[Xela M]

That would be very well if it was the American girls she's robbing. If Medvedeva honestly doesn't resent her any, well, she's a very remarkable person indeed then.

Med invented backloading of programs! And Zag's choreography is way less offensive than most of Averbukh's creations for Med

 

[Jayar]

Bottom line-- the skaters who backload are following the rules whether folks like it or not. All of the athletes have the opportunity to take advantage of the system, but have differing philosophies about how to apply it. There really aren't a lot of skaters who can compete with the Russian leaders in ladies regardless of where the jumps are placed, but that's not really the point. The point is this-- the programs are, perhaps, unbalanced. If 'balanced' is a criteria for PCS, then skaters who backload should be dinged, but meh. Personally I think that they need to leave the rule as is, but I wish that PCS were reevaluated so that skaters who have honed in on Skating Skills and Performance can be rewarded more than they are currently. Kostner should not be in the same conversation as Medvedeva. Different levels altogether. It's okay that a prolific jumper doesn't score 9s on PCS just like it's okay that an artist does not earn 40+ points for tech in the SP.

 

[Vash01]

Actually it was Eteri who invented back loading of the programs to get a competitive advantage. I remember Med saying that it felt odd at first but she got used to it. Not everyone is able to handle the backloading though. Zhenya and Alina are truly exceptional athletes and competitors.

I loved Zhenya's W.E. LP in 2016. I saw it live in Boston. It made me an instant fan. Initially i didn't like the 2017 LP but it grew on me because Zhenya has the ability to improve with every performance.

I don't find Averbukh's choreography horrible, the way many posters here do. He gave her what she could handle at that time. She is still a very young person. I had liked the LP he choreographed fir her for this season, but i prefer Anna Karenina, and so does she.

 

[Satellitegirl]

well personally i do not like zagitova's skating but as long as the rules are as they are you have to deal with what she is doing. i don't like her skating/ i don't like backloading. she is not an artist enough on ice to pull it off so for me watching the first half of the program is ho hum. russians in my mind don't generally play fair but in this instance they are in bounds. her coach i think realized she needed to do this to be competitive. otherwise she is just another russian lady landing jumps........ in a tutu.

Zagitova is so overmarked in PCS.

To each their own, but when you take into account she is only 15, she is effin amazing. So mature in her skating. She could use a little deeper edging, and maybe a little more time for some moves for more effect, but her spins...80% of them are very centered and her jumps are always on. She's very talented.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

American girls don't backload programs because it's bloody hard! Duh! That's why Zag gets more points

Ashley Wagner said that she doesn't like it, finds it looks unbalanced, it's hard, is rewarded under the current system, and she'd do it, if only she could.

 

[overedge]

@Vash01, does Mrs. Brennan ever write anything with any intent but drawing attention via being controversial.

Why are you calling her Mrs. Brennan? Brennan is her birth name.

 

[Jayar]

Ashley Wagner said that she doesn't like it, finds it looks unbalanced, it's hard, is rewarded under the current system, and she'd do it, if only she could.

That's her personal philosophy. If she chooses to not backload, she knows the risk of being at a scoring disadvantage.

 

[Jaana]

Inman too. Who also launched war against plushenko!

I wonder if like in plushenkos case he emailed all the judges to penalize zagitova

Well, Plushenko himself was the reason for all that because in an interview by Absolute Skating he declared to have no transitions in his programs.

 

[Nadya]

Ashley Wagner said that she doesn't like it, finds it looks unbalanced, it's hard, is rewarded under the current system, and she'd do it, if only she could.

Yes, the view of the Olympic skating must be so awesome from Ms. Wagner's couch. Oh how I would do it! If only I could!

 

[snippy]

Unfortunately , I agree with Ashley. Unfortunately, skating is going further and further away from the elegance that used to have

 

[Frau Muller]

Wait until Brennan sees what’s coming down the road...Trusova and other Jr GP winners who perform quads. Brennan & the other whiners are trying to stop what’s coming. I’d suggest that such whiners explore the new Peggy Fleming Trophy for artistic skating.

 

[Nadya]

I'm not a particular fan of Zagitova; she's fun, young and exciting but she's not yet complete artistically, nor can she be, at this age. She is doing all she is capable of, which may or may not be enough to please educated fan. That's not her fault. She cannot magically will herself to be 21.

With that said, I despise Christine Brennan as a talentless hack. Let's see:

"Talk about gaming the system. The idea behind the bonus is that skaters will have already tried several jumps in the first two minutes, so their legs will be getting tired, hence awarding the 10% extra for jumps tried in the final two minutes.But Zagitova gets the bonus without having put in the exertion. Nagasu, for instance, has a well-balanced long program: eight triple jumps in all, five in the first two minutes, three in the last two minutes. Zagitova has seven triple jumps, all in the final two minutes."

So Brennan's argument is that what Zagitova does actually isn't difficult since her legs aren't exerted enough on account of no jumping. Very well then, if it's easy, why don't MORE people do it? Well?

Wagner's quote doesn't belong in this conversation at all. Athletes' comments on the current state of sport are generally welcome only in two cases: a) if they are the reigning champions, or b) if they are revered figures in the sport, a la Dick Button. A FOURTH freaking place finisher who missed going to the Olympics and bitched about it? Yeah, no one cares what you think.

“I don’t think (Zagitova) would be able to do all the jumps in the second half if she was going into them with the speed that Mirai takes into her jumps. She couldn’t do jump after jump after jump if she was going with any speed. Just look at her ice coverage, it’s very moderate, whereas Mirai is flying into her triple axels, flying into her triple flip-triple toe."

Mirai is flying OUT of her triple axels too...sometimes right onto her bum. So Zagitova approaches her jump in the manner that ensures successful landing. Again - why don't more people do it? Do you think people are prepared to lose for the sake of being, I dunno...a pure, Brennan-approved athlete? Who cares that I placed 18th! At least I did it in a manner Christine Brennan approves! Imma put her approval around my neck and wear it like a medal!

Let's not be ridiculous. Athletes do what they are capable of. No more, no less. Leave the kid alone. Direct your ire at the rulebook - which is, incidentally, accessible to all and sundry who can read.

 

[muffinplus]

Mirai is flying into her triple axel? I never noticed that .... on TV at least her entries always look very hesitant

 

[caseyedwards]

Well, Plushenko himself was the reason for all that because in an interview by Absolute Skating he declared to have no transitions in his programs.

And then Inman made sure everyone knew and emailed them and told them to judge plushenko on his comments! But judges are supposed to judge on what they see on ice not in emails. And he was talking about transitions as if they only are before jumps! Judges know transitions are before and after all tech elements. But Inman was pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions. 2 did.

 

[Frau Muller]

Don’t Mirai and Yevgenia skate to the same Chopin tune in the SP? Look at the first minute of both programs and tell me who is the most artistic and musical. Mirai is just pumping around gathering speed for her 3 axel...she could be skating to the William Tell Overture, it’s so musically insensitive.

 

[Seerek]

Ashley Wagner said that she doesn't like it, finds it looks unbalanced, it's hard, is rewarded under the current system, and she'd do it, if only she could.

Am I missing something? Ashley herself has 5 of her 7 triples in the second half of the long program.

 

[Willowway]

I would certainly not blame this on any skater or any coach. The COP is what it is at the moment and trying to wring out every available point is what a competitor does within the scoring system.

That said, I really wish that the PTB would tinker with this rule and allow perhaps a 10% bonus on up to 3 jumps in the second half, or any adjustment that discourages total jump backloading. Totally backloaded programs do feel very unbalanced; I would modify the rewards to temper that.

But is it the skater's fault? No.

 

[overedge]

And then Inman made sure everyone knew and emailed them and told them to judge plushenko on his comments! But judges are supposed to judge on what they see on ice not in emails. And he was talking about transitions as if they only are before jumps! Judges know transitions are before and after all tech elements. But Inman was pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions. 2 did.

@caseyedwards you are full of even more sh*t than usual.

Inman's email cited *Plushenko's own words* about having no transitions. He said "“We as judges should think about what we saw before putting that mark down", which oddly enough is what you are criticizing him for recommending - he was reminding people to judge what they saw on the ice and not to be judging on reputation. Key word: "reminding", not "ordering".

He was not "pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions" - his email said nothing about giving specific scores to specific skaters.

And since Inman helped write the IJS standards for component marks, I think he knows more than you do about what a transition is and where it happens in the program

 

[becca]

I would certainly not blame this on any skater or any coach. The COP is what it is at the moment and trying to wring out every available point is what a competitor does within the scoring system.

That said, I really wish that the PTB would tinker with this rule and allow perhaps a 10% bonus on up to 3 jumps in the second half, or any adjustment that discourages total jump backloading. Totally backloaded programs do feel very unbalanced; I would modify the rewards to temper that.

But is it the skater's fault? No.

Or frankly blaming the coach for learning the rule book and training her skaters while designing programs to eek out every point possible.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

That's her personal philosophy. If she chooses to not backload, she knows the risk of being at a scoring disadvantage.

She was being funny. She said that knowing how the system works under the current rules, she'd put all her jumps in the back half of the program, too; if she could actually get through the program that way. But she can't skate a program with all of the jumps in the back half of the program - it's hard as hell. She understands the system rewards skaters who can do this.

 

[caseyedwards]

@caseyedwards you are full of even more sh*t than usual.

Inman's email cited *Plushenko's own words* about having no transitions. He said "“We as judges should think about what we saw before putting that mark down", which oddly enough is what you are criticizing him for recommending - he was reminding people to judge what they say on the ice and not to be judging on reputation.

He was not "pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions" - his email said nothing about giving specific scores to specific skaters.

And since Inman helped write the IJS standards for component marks, I think he knows more than you do about what a transition is and where it happens in the program

I am not full of shit. I am quoting the email. Inman said “The judges seem to miss what he is saying” as well!!! judges Shouldn’t go by comments but by skating. Skating only.

ISU definition of transition is very clear. Any movement into or out of a technical element. That’s the definition. Beyond that there are suggestions as to what judges should score most highly but that doesn’t change the definition. Plushenkos statement that said transitions are into jumps were just wrong! That’s the thing about the whole comment anyway. Focus on jumps? Transitions are into and out of spin and step sequences too.

And why was inman campaigning against a skater anyway?! And why is he doing so again? He is so corrupt. He is disgusting.

 

[misskarne]

@caseyedwards you are full of even more sh*t than usual.

Inman's email cited *Plushenko's own words* about having no transitions. He said "“We as judges should think about what we saw before putting that mark down", which oddly enough is what you are criticizing him for recommending - he was reminding people to judge what they saw on the ice and not to be judging on reputation. Key word: "reminding", not "ordering".

He was not "pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions" - his email said nothing about giving specific scores to specific skaters.

And since Inman helped write the IJS standards for component marks, I think he knows more than you do about what a transition is and where it happens in the program

Sorry, but in this situation I disagree.

If Inman was a Russian judge, and Plushenko an American skater, the uproar over this behaviour would have been enormous. There would have been investigations, cries of corruption, demands for Inman to be suspended. I do think the fact that Plushenko was Russian and the favourite to win had a huge effect on the "oh there's nothing in this" reaction to this behaviour.

No matter the nationality, Inman's behaviour was entirely inappropriate. He singled out a skater and gave what could very well be interpreted as an instruction to mark him down. I don't care what school of thought you're from, that's wrong.

 

[alj5]

I don't see the 10% bonus going away, and I think the 2 in the short and 4 in the free (essentially half) bonus-eligible is fair.

Or make backloading 100% a mandatory deduction on the choreography score to max out at 5. That would stop the practice.

 

[Vash01]

And then Inman made sure everyone knew and emailed them and told them to judge plushenko on his comments! But judges are supposed to judge on what they see on ice not in emails. And he was talking about transitions as if they only are before jumps! Judges know transitions are before and after all tech elements. But Inman was pushing for all judges to give plushenko 5 in transitions. 2 did.

Inman should have been suspended right then, but he was not, may be because he was an American campaigning against a Russian skater?

 

[overedge]

Sorry, but in this situation I disagree.

If Inman was a Russian judge, and Plushenko an American skater, the uproar over this behaviour would have been enormous. There would have been investigations, cries of corruption, demands for Inman to be suspended. I do think the fact that Plushenko was Russian and the favourite to win had a huge effect on the "oh there's nothing in this" reaction to this behaviour.

No matter the nationality, Inman's behaviour was entirely inappropriate. He singled out a skater and gave what could very well be interpreted as an instruction to mark him down. I don't care what school of thought you're from, that's wrong.

I am pointing out that what @caseyedwards said that Inman said was not, in fact, what Inman said. The interpretations of what Inman said or supposedly was implying are up to you, and I'm not going to debate those. I am correcting @caseyedwards misstatements of fact.

 

[Vash01]

I don't see the 10% bonus going away, and I think the 2 in the short and 4 in the free (essentially half) bonus-eligible is fair.

Or make backloading 100% a mandatory deduction on the choreography score to max out at 5. That would stop the practice.

I don't see the need for a mandatory deduction for something that proves athletic superiority of a skater. I am sure there are better ways to improve the current system.

I remember reading something that Irina Rodnina once said. When the USSR was dominant in pairs, the western powers kept changing the rules but the USSR skaters kept winning. Something like that could happen in ladies skating.

If rules are changed to hurt a certain country's athletes, it is wrong. I am sure if someone proposed rule changes that would take away Nathan Chen's advantage, for example, there would be Screams of " unfair!" In the USA.

 

[alj5]

But if a main criteria of choreography is a balanced program, all the jumps in a free skate is not balanced.

I don't have a problem with Zag and Med leading after the short program, backloading jumps is less noticeable in the short. But Zag's first 2 minutes includes 3 elements, the second two minutes has 9 (7 of them jumps). That's not balanced.

 

[millyskate]

Program quality isn't just about where jumps are positioned. I think many of us, including me, enjoyed the LP of Savchenko and Massot. But it was as frontloaded as could possibly be.
One of the things that actually lessened my enjoyment of figure skating programs when the transition to IJS happened was how the rhythm of skating was constant throughout, without any pauses or ebb and flow to the rhythm. The posing sections programs used to contain were actually nice breathers and adrenaline builders for the viewers as well as skaters.

Backloading is one variation and it brings variety to watching an afternoon of skating. It's exceptional and few skaters will be able to deliver it. It's incredibly impressive and they've even chosen a program where it works conceptually.

 

[Ohyes]

oh bah bah bahhhhh. cry some more Christine. If there is anyone's skating you should be "exposing" it should be Evgenia. leave alina alone.

 

[Ohyes]

Zagitova is a piece of shit skater that is totally overscored and overrated. She is as sloppy as **** and deserves all the criticism she gets.

you misspelled evgenia. Alina's score in the short is fine.