Canadian Men 2017-18 season news & updates

[Jammers]

How many coaches does this make in just the last couple of years?

 

[JasperBoy]

I am sad to hear this about Nam. If there is parental interference that is most unfortunate. Nam had such promise, and it is slipping away. This was supposed to be his time to shine but he appears to be done almost before he got started.

 

[honey]

How many coaches does this make in just the last couple of years?

Orser -> Glynn (May 2016) -> Wainman (December 2016) -> Burke (December 2017)

I thought Nam had made significant improvements with Wainman, especially with speed. But it seems like without the results he wants he’s searching for the coach he thinks can give it to him. This kind of reminds me of Sasha Cohen and her rotation of coaches...

 

[barbarafan]

I don’t see switching coaches as helping Nam unless he finds someone who can teach him to skate. I was watching his Challenge short program yesterday and his basic crossovers would not be acceptable in Juv! I think he got away with it when he was short (note to judges: you really need to look at what the short jumpers are actually doing and mark them accordingly!) but there is no way it is working for him now he has grown. There is no power. People talk about Ashley and Polina’s lack of power, they are speed demons when compared to Nam!

Does anyone know why he switched....His lack of work ethic was the problem at Cricket. He didn't do off ice training.

 

[Habs]

I think some of Nam's issues stem from his early years with Joanne McLeod. He has the same poor technique that is the trademark of McLeod skaters and it has never been corrected.

I think Joannie Rochette is a perfect example of breaking down and reworking technique. She basically learned to skate all over again. It was bumpy through the process, but in the end was so worth the hard work she obviously put in.

 

[Rock2]

I agree, in that I liked how both Nam and Roman looked to start the season. I had hope.

This isn't any big insight or revelation but it's clear Nam is not all that coachable. He could be like Patrick where he/his camp want to train a certain way (if at all) and no self-respecting coach will put up with that...then tension...then a split.

The split could be initiated by the coach or NamFam but that part we'll prob never know for sure.

 

[Sylvia]

Challenge Senior Men's SP protocols from last night: https://skatecanada.ca/results/2018challenge/2018CHALLSeniorMenSPDRO.pdf

FS is scheduled for later today from 17:15-20:38 in Rink 4. I believe the top 13 finishers (including Nadeau & Nguyen who had GP byes but are competing) will advance to Canadians.

Byes for top 3 at 2017 Canadians: Chan, Reynolds, Nguyen;
GP byes: Messing, Nadeau, Sadovsky, Firus.

 

[barbarafan]

I agree, in that I liked how both Nam and Roman looked to start the season. I had hope.

This isn't any big insight or revelation but it's clear Nam is not all that coachable. He could be like Patrick where he/his camp want to train a certain way (if at all) and no self-respecting coach will put up with that...then tension...then a split.

The split could be initiated by the coach or NamFam but that part we'll prob never know for sure.

He had a little while after leaving cricket & going to US an interview on his facebook..strange..he said all of his success is due to his father's input and guidance and nothing to do with his coaches. He basically only listens to him.

 

[pinky166]

Orser -> Glynn (May 2016) -> Wainman (December 2016) -> Burke (December 2017)

I thought Nam had made significant improvements with Wainman, especially with speed. But it seems like without the results he wants he’s searching for the coach he thinks can give it to him. This kind of reminds me of Sasha Cohen and her rotation of coaches...

I think if Nam is really looking for success and trying to improve he needs to stop jumping ship. Sometimes things get worse before they get better, or even if they get better right away, the progress is sort of slow.

I wonder if Tracey coaches a lot of young skaters? Or maybe because Nam is more solid with his jumps, he/his parents feel he isn’t getting enough time and attention compared to someone like Roman who needs more technical help? Every time I start to really root for Nam there always seems to be a new coach and new drama.

 

[fan]

He had a little while after leaving cricket & going to US an interview on his facebook..strange..he said all of his success is due to his father's input and guidance and nothing to do with his coaches. He basically only listens to him.

i can confirm this. he does work quite hard while on the ice, but doesn't see the point in off-ice.

 

[JasperBoy]

i can confirm this. he does work quite hard while on the ice, but doesn't see the point in off-ice.

And there's the answer. To be competitive internationally a skater needs to access every possible source of strength, skill and style. Without total commitment a skater will not get into the top ten.
In a way it is unfortunate that Nam had early successes. He and his father may now think that what he did then will be enough to succeed now. But his competitors are not standing still. They are working on their weaknesses and making improvements every season. That leaves Nam as a "might have been."

 

[mackiecat]

Guys do you really think he has a choice but to listen to his father who is paying the bills, putting a roof over his head and feeding him? He is only 19 and from a cultural background that is raised to obey their parents.

 

[JasperBoy]

Guys do you really think he has a choice but to listen to his father who is paying the bills, putting a roof over his head and feeding him? He is only 19 and from a cultural background that is raised to obey their parents.

Yes, that is all true, and we have seen it a few times before. It is my belief that once any athlete is competing internationally the parents are way beyond their depth. They should step back and let the coaches, who they are paying for their experience and credentials, do their job.

 

[pinky166]

So Joseph Phan just won Challenge by 14 points and doesn’t have senior TES minimums yet

 

[sammyf]

So Joseph Phan just won Challenge by 14 points and doesn’t have senior TES minimums yet

Evelyn Walsh/Trennt Michaud will also be likely to place in a spot high enough at Nationals to qualify for a FCC spot but weren't sent for the senior minimums either. Hopefully both get sent. US just added Hannah Miller to Golden Spin today, so there is still hope!

 

[skatingguy]

Skate Canada has a pretty consistent track record of not sending athletes to internationals if they're not on the national team.

 

[Seerek]

What the heck is SC doing? They've had since early October to send Phan to any Senior competition (after he won silver at JGP Croatia).

Even last season, there was an argument to send him to Jr. Worlds despite his Canadian Nats result.

 

[barbarafan]

So Joseph Phan just won Challenge by 14 points and doesn’t have senior TES minimums yet

beautiful skate..very clean. most of the men who are able to score high were off their game tonight for 1 reason or another.

 

[pinky166]

Skate Canada has a pretty consistent track record of not sending athletes to internationals if they're not on the national team.

Not really. Firus, Sadovsky, Toman, and Balde all got international assignments this fall and none of them are currently on the National team.

And Phan did get sent to JGPs I just expected he’d get sent to late challenger or other senior B this fall just in case he made the World, Olympic, or 4CCs team at Nationals. They sent Nadeau and Sadovsky to Golden Spin last year when they were both on the JGP circuit, presumably for that reason.

Hopefully Joseph can keep the good skating up and the TES stuff will get sorted out if he does wind up finishing top 2 at Nationals.

 

[Sylvia]

Challenge Senior Men's SP protocols from last night: https://skatecanada.ca/results/2018challenge/2018CHALLSeniorMenSPDRO.pdf

FS is scheduled for later today from 17:15-20:38 in Rink 4. I believe the top 13 finishers (including Nadeau & Nguyen who had GP byes but are competing) will advance to Canadians.

Byes for top 3 at 2017 Canadians: Chan, Reynolds, Nguyen;
GP byes: Messing, Nadeau, Sadovsky, Firus.

I believe top 13 from Challenge qualify? They are:
1 Joseph Phan QC 79.03 (1) 166.19 (1) 245.22
2 Nicolas Nadeau QC 76.19 (2) 155.24 (2) 231.43
3 Nam Nguyen ON 69.06 (4) 154.41 (3) 223.47
4 Stephen Gogolev ON 63.77 (7) 136.36 (4) 200.13
5 Elladj Baldé QC 70.85 (3) 119.80 (8) 190.65
6 Samuel Angers QC 63.29 (8) 122.26 (6) 185.55
7 Conrad Orzel ON 60.07 (11) 125.40 (5) 185.47
8 Bennet Toman ON 60.35 (10) 119.83 (7) 180.18
9 Edrian Paul Celestino QC 66.39 (5) 112.27 (10) 178.66
10 Olivier Bergeron QC 66.02 (6) 109.19 (12) 175.21
11 Eric Liu AB/NT/NU 55.68 (15) 119.45 (9) 175.13
12 Jérémie Crevaux QC 62.34 (9) 112.26 (11) 174.60
13 Dustin Sherriff-Clayton AB/NT/NU 60.03 (12) 103.55 (13) 163.58

Senior Men FS protocols: https://skatecanada.ca/results/2018challenge/2018CHALLSeniorMenFPDRO.pdf

Quad count:
Phan 4T+2T(+1), 4T(-0.28)
Nadeau 4T(-3.36) fell out/hand down, doubled 2nd planned 4T (2T+3T)
Nguyen 4S(+1), 4T< fall, second half 4S+3T = 16.68
Gogolev 4T(+1.4), 4S fall
Orzel 4S(+1.2), doubled 2nd planned 4T (2T+3T), 4T(+1)
Toman 4T<< fall

Nadeau landed both of his 3A with + GOE; 3A+3T by Gogolev (in 2nd half = 14.88) & 3A+3T by Toman.
Phan landed his one 3A(+1.2); Nam landed the 1st of his two 3A cleanly & stepped out of his 2nd; Orzel landed his 2nd half 3A(-1).

 

[Erin]

So Joseph Phan just won Challenge by 14 points and doesn’t have senior TES minimums yet

I may have just sent a snarky tweet to Skate Canada about how stupid they were on this...

 

[Rock2]

Skate Canada is thinking more about maximizing points and SB list to get GP assignments next year. They are less worried about TES mins to compete in the big events this year, as all the people they want to send this year to 4CC, Olympics and World's have their mins. There are a few exceptions, like in pairs.

So the goal is to get points. With a top junior entry such as W/M or Phan they are pegged for Junior Worlds and if it can fit they can be sent to a senior international to get some points. Doesn't need to be 4CC because at a big international like that it's tough to place high enough to get the points they would want.

I'm ok with what's happening, for the most part.

 

[barbarafan]

I may have just sent a snarky tweet to Skate Canada about how stupid they were on this...

I might love you for this

 

[wickedwitch]

So the goal is to get points. With a top junior entry such as W/M or Phan they are pegged for Junior Worlds and if it can fit they can be sent to a senior international to get some points. Doesn't need to be 4CC because at a big international like that it's tough to place high enough to get the points they would want.

SB is based on raw score. Given the limitations of junior programs, both Phan and W/M would likely get a better score at 4CC than at junior worlds.

 

[pinky166]

I may have just sent a snarky tweet to Skate Canada about how stupid they were on this...

Haha, good for you! It should help them plan better in upcoming seasons!

I mean, as much as I love Nic and want him to go to the Olympics, I think whoever is skating and scoring the best come Nationals should be sent to the Olympics. Right now it looks like that could be Joseph, and yeah I get he’s young but 4 years is a long time to wait and so much could happen between now and then...

I just hope the scoring at Nationals is fair and doesn’t include huge PCS inflation that has no chance of duplicating itself internationally for some skaters. May the best men medal.

 

[Sylvia]

Since only 1 ISU Championship (or Olympics) is counted for World Standings points, perhaps Skate Canada's strategy this season is to "spread the wealth" among as many Canadian skaters/teams as possible?

 

[Rock2]

SB is based on raw score. Given the limitations of junior programs, both Phan and W/M would likely get a better score at 4CC than at junior worlds.

The idea is to send them to Jr worlds to get slots for next year and more JGP assignments. That's a HUGE need for us and I don't support SC compromising on that objective.

Then, there may be room for a winter/spring senior international that counts for points and SB for them. If there's something available that fits in the schedule, do that as well. 4CC isn't the be all/end all at this point, IMHO.

 

[Sylvia]

The idea is to send them to Jr worlds to get slots for next year and more JGP assignments.

Yes (I forgot to mention this point).

Then, there may be room for a winter/spring senior international that counts for points and SB for them. If there's something available that fits in the schedule, do that as well. 4CC isn't the be all/end all at this point, IMHO.

Winter/spring senior internationals do not count for SB, unfortunately.

 

[Catherine M]

What about Santa Claus cup in Budapest next weekend for Phan?! I'm sure the Hungarian fed has room for one more for a small fee. But I guess the airfare cost are just too much now, unless someone wants to start a gofundme page to help out Skate Canada.

 

[Rock2]

Winter/spring senior internationals do not count for SB, unfortunately.

That's a bummer. Points, then. It's a long road....