Shibutanis thread 3: Evolution

VIETgrlTerifa said:
I think I'm just worried because it seems the fandom all want Hubbell/Donohue to win Nationals and be U.S. 1 and it seems like they have the momentum and the judges may agree with that.
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Momentum? Before the Grand Prix season get's under way, and after only one competition, against a field of nobody's? The only ones that should be worried about a narrative is Hubbell and Donohue as this is how their season began last year. If this were US National's and we didn't see Maia and Alex, that would be one thing. It's September...
 
I don't expect Maia and Alex to do anything too crazy this season. I think their SD will be quirky like last season but one the audience will love. The Free Dance will likely be serious but easy on them in terms of emotional vulnerability. They will probably have the best of their lifts they've used in the past. I could be wrong but they have tried a template approach to Ice Dance that they can sort of alter to make them competitive and Marina is good at helping them manage that.
 
arakwafan2006 said:
Momentum? Before the Grand Prix season get's under way, and after only one competition, against a field of nobody's? The only ones that should be worried about a narrative is Hubbell and Donohue as this is how their season began last year. If this were US National's and we didn't see Maia and Alex, that would be one thing. It's September...
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I know it's early, it's just there's talk and noise and a narrative created that H/D are being pushed down by politics and how they have deserved to place first among the Americans. It started last season and their Worlds showing has just made it stronger. Now that US Classica happened many have already expressed that they deserve to be the no. 1 American no matter what the other two teams do. I love H/D's qualities and I do think they have excellent skating skills and an athleticism that is capable of doing it, but my fear is that the narrative will take over reality and the Shibs will fall victim to it because many who are pushing it really don't see the quality in the Shibs that have made them as successful as they have been.
 
I just rewatched the new programs of H/D, V/M and P/C and I compared them with Shibs past LP and I don´t know if this is because of the design of the new programs but I don´t think they are faster than Shibs, I mention it because it is a constant critic toward them, and Shibs Twizzles are still the best, they cover a lot of ice DOING twizzles, while other teams do it doing steps between twizzles, this new season especially many teams are doing many steps between twizzles, I wonder if the Shibs will do the same?. If Maia and Alex get a similar impression with their new FD like they did it with Fix you (I know, not so easy) and their new SD even like their past SD, they will be fine. I am not impressed with H/D SD, if someone will take advantage of the SD this season, I think they will be Madison and Evan.
 
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arakwafan2006 said:
I don't expect Maia and Alex to do anything too crazy this season. I think their SD will be quirky like last season but one the audience will love. The Free Dance will likely be serious but easy on them in terms of emotional vulnerability. They will probably have the best of their lifts they've used in the past. I could be wrong but they have tried a template approach to Ice Dance that they can sort of alter to make them competitive and Marina is good at helping them manage that.
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That phrase "a template approach to Ice Dance" is very interesting and I think I get what you mean, but could you elaborate a little?
 
It's a way of saying that the Shibs' dances just consist of a streamline list of elements that they've they've done before copy and pasted but rearranged in order and Marina just polishes it.
 
Alex just posted this IG of them meeting members of Coldplay at the I Heart Radio Festival last weekend:

https://instagram.com/p/BZr9g8MjgtJ/

I think it's clear why they've chosen to do a "trilogy" and why they chose the costumes that they've decided on. I think at the last Olympics they wanted to do Michael Jackson because Alex was a fan and it seemed like a fun idea, but maybe they realized that next time they had an opportunity to perform in front of an Olympic-sized audience they want their programs to show themselves off and just be Alex and Maia. I think "Fix You" and "Evolution" were variations of that theme and they're hoping that "Paradise" will be a successful culmination of that self-exploration.
 
If I were to worry about politiks, it's not the fandom I'd worry about, but rather the federation. If the fed is either pushing another or is awol when it comes to supporting a team, that's when you know there are rough times ahead, no matter how well you skate or package your programs.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Alex just posted this IG of them meeting members of Coldplay at the I Heart Radio Festival last weekend:

https://instagram.com/p/BZr9g8MjgtJ/

I think it's clear why they've chosen to do a "trilogy" and why they chose the costumes that they've decided on. I think at the last Olympics they wanted to do Michael Jackson because Alex was a fan and it seemed like a fun idea, but maybe they realized that next time they had an opportunity to perform in front of an Olympic-sized audience they want their programs to show themselves off and just be Alex and Maia. I think "Fix You" and "Evolution" were variations of that theme and they're hoping that "Paradise" will be a successful culmination of that self-exploration.
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The caption :) , Alex:¨It was awesome seeing Chris, Will, Jonny, and Guy again before our Olympic season begins.

Since the beginning (23 years ago), @maiashibutani and I have been each other's best friend. For 13 years, we have been a great team on the ice. We have persevered, and fought for each other and our dreams.

Their music has helped and inspired us to become the skaters we always hoped we could be. When we skate to @coldplay, we are Maia and Alex. We are truly ourselves. We tell our story, dream our dream, and live in our Paradise.¨

There are only 20 days left for Rostelecom :cheer2:.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Alex just posted this IG of them meeting members of Coldplay at the I Heart Radio Festival last weekend:

https://instagram.com/p/BZr9g8MjgtJ/

I think it's clear why they've chosen to do a "trilogy" and why they chose the costumes that they've decided on. I think at the last Olympics they wanted to do Michael Jackson because Alex was a fan and it seemed like a fun idea, but maybe they realized that next time they had an opportunity to perform in front of an Olympic-sized audience they want their programs to show themselves off and just be Alex and Maia. I think "Fix You" and "Evolution" were variations of that theme and they're hoping that "Paradise" will be a successful culmination of that self-exploration.
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You could be right. I hadnt thought of it that way, and I must say I am not attracted to the concept. Why focus on themselves rather than the music, the words or the story? It didnt work that well for V/M in 2009-10 and they already had an OGM at that point. I feel like Fix You was the Shibs' breakthrough dance because it broke their mold, moved them out of their comfort zone to total connection with the audience. (Audiences have always loved them but I think maybe in a quasi-maternal/paternal way because the Shibs were so young and adorable -- but with Fix You the connection was visceral.) I am hoping Paradise does that again and takes them to a new place where they punch the audience in the gut. The way performers talk about their work doesnt always translate to what the audience experiences so I will keep hoping for another few weeks that their new FD is more powerful and less self-referential. Maybe more of a paradise lost even if they havent expeienced that. It's going to have to be powerful to keep me from seeing those stupid elephants.
 
I think it's about Maia and Alex wanting themselves to be seen in the same way Michelle Kwan moved away from heavy character pieces and started to just show herself during the 1997-1998 season. Before you say she lost the Olympics remember that Tara also showcased herself and her exhuberant personality plus those 3/3s helped her go over the top. Lu Chen's Butterfly Lovers was similar. So long as the program has an impact then it can work. I don't think Maia and Alex are relying on some story here or being heavily self-referential like V/M's Seasons (I felt the concept was dropped by the time it hit Sochi anyway and it was them salvaging a program they never figured out). They just want their skating and themselves to shine and be showcased without a heavy story or character-driven piece to do.
 
The Shibs pour their hearts & souls into their new programs. They have developed a creative voice and are personally involved in every step of the process. They have grown into a leadership role in U.S. dance. Stepped up time after time in tough competitions.

They start off at Rostelecom and we all know it will be crazy tough. No dance team has defeated Bobrova & Soloviev in Russia since Sochi. Not another Russian dance team. Not a foreign dance team. They are the winningest Russian team in history since the end of the Soviet Union, and this is most likely B&S's final season.

But there is no tougher critique board than the Shibs will face right there.

After that, they go to Skate America.
We hope the GPF in Japan.
U.S. Nationals.
Korea.

Start with the most ferocious feedback they can receive. And then climb, climb, climb.

That's my hope. But no matter what, I LOVE watching them skate. They bring a joy, an honesty, and a sense of musicality that few athletes in the world can match. Absolutely exquisite positions, unison, and togetherness. A relationship on the ice and a sense of ONEness that is truly special.

We are blessed to see them skate, perform, and compete this season. They have broken so many barriers in this sport. For me they are perfection.

And it is a beautiful STRENGTH to be embraced in a diverse, creative, and dynamic discipline.
 
I dont know. There's a story in that song. Are they using another one too? If it's been discussed I missed it.
 
Honestly, unless teams are portraying something obvious like Carmen or Scheherazade or Black Swan, most people don't tie a heavy story to ice dance routines. What has been successful are those programs where people feel they understand the heart and passion and soul of the skaters. I doubt most people who loved Fix You needed a background story to fall in love with it. What they saw was authenticity, the connection between Alex and Maia and the Shibs skating to it with full heart and emotion. I also think H/D's Tron became more successful once they dropped the heavier story background and went more abstract with it allowing the audience to just enjoy the skating and emotion behind it and project what they felt at the time at 2016 Worlds.

In other words, I think what the Shibs realized through all of their social media work is that people love them. What they need to do is hit their levels and kill the narrative that they're skating safe. I think they can skate risky and push themselves without having to portray a character or be married to too heavy of a story. A basic story is will suffice but the most important thing is that the crowd and hopefully the judges feel an authentic, soulful, and heartfelt Maia and Alex because they themselves are the biggest part of their success. I rather them do that then do a Michael Jackson like route or be beholden to a concept where we don't really see them. To me that's be the biggest mistake considering how winning they are.
 
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^ it was all that, but not just that - it was Maia and Alex getting to the heart of a song about grownup pain and love - there was a lot of story in that song, even if not 19th C characters that they had to portray. Similarly with "Paradise" - it has something of a plot and a lead character ("she"). It's pretty ambiguous though - they could interpret it in many different ways (even elephants but let's hope not).
 
Spun Silver said:
^ it was all that, but not just that - it was Maia and Alex getting to the heart of a song about grownup pain and love - there was a lot of story in that song, even if not 19th C characters that they had to portray. Similarly with "Paradise" - it has something of a plot and a lead character ("she"). It's pretty ambiguous though - they could interpret it in many different ways (even elephants but let's hope not).
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I see what you're saying. I think they can still do that while making sure they themselves shine through and allow the audience to see Maia and Alex and also allow them to have the opportunity to give a bit back to the piece. I think I'm letting my own taste take over a bit but one reason why I never connected with D/W's 2014 programs was because I felt they were so into the Schez story that I just felt like they had a mask they were hiding behind the whole time. I think so long as the Shibs feel real then it would work because the trick is to allow the audience to feel something. I think all of those standing Os in the GP series then later were something the judges couldn't continue to ignore that was reflected in their GOE AND PCS.
 
It may not be fair, but this is a big ask: "What they need to do is hit their levels and kill the narrative that they're skating safe." It's THE ask, though, I agree.

The ghost of a story (the lyrics of a song) can help them go past "safeness" emotionally while hopefully their training that they feel so confident about this season takes care of the levels.
 
That is the big ask. I really do think just increasing the perception of speed does a lot for those criticisms. With more speed they can add more transitions and highlight moves which makes it look like they have more abandon. I know everyone is saying they need to keep their standing and look behind them to make sure a team like H/D don't overtake them. I honestly don't think they are as slow or careful as so many make them out to be compare to the other teams behind them currently but those optics have taken over and have become the narrative. That said, what I saw for all of last season until Worlds was that they were capable of being spoilers for the top 2 but they held themselves back a bit. I'm still holding on to the fact that the Shibs did receive the biggest ovation in the FD and medal ceremony at 2017 4CC. I know some will debate me on that but that's something I know happened even with Evolution which so many have dismissed as not being emotionally as strong as Fix You.
 
Spun Silver said:
You could be right. I hadnt thought of it that way, and I must say I am not attracted to the concept. Why focus on themselves rather than the music, the words or the story? It didnt work that well for V/M in 2009-10 and they already had an OGM at that point. I feel like Fix You was the Shibs' breakthrough dance because it broke their mold, moved them out of their comfort zone to total connection with the audience. (Audiences have always loved them but I think maybe in a quasi-maternal/paternal way because the Shibs were so young and adorable -- but with Fix You the connection was visceral.) I am hoping Paradise does that again and takes them to a new place where they punch the audience in the gut. The way performers talk about their work doesnt always translate to what the audience experiences so I will keep hoping for another few weeks that their new FD is more powerful and less self-referential. Maybe more of a paradise lost even if they havent expeienced that. It's going to have to be powerful to keep me from seeing those stupid elephants.
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omg, I know, what with the elephants? :lol:. I think they could to skate a story or not, after all, the words can be interpreted in different ways . But even if this is about them, it could be powerful anyway, they are very passionate persons, and we only see what they let us see, we really don´t know all their life, their struggles,I am sure they faced difficulties in their life, to begin with we all know how hard they have worked to get to where they are now, while there are other talented skaters who were lost in the way.

And about they using another song, yes, Alex wrote something in his twitter that they are using another song or musical piece.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
I think so long as the Shibs feel real then it would work because the trick is to allow the audience to feel something. I think all of those standing Os in the GP series then later were something the judges couldn't continue to ignore that was reflected in their GOE AND PCS.
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Yes - since they have been pigeonholed a bit and judged more harshly than other teams at times, they need to go straight to the audiences and through them to the judges. We know they are capable of it.
 
Another part of me that wants Maia and Alex packaged in a way that we can truly see them is that I believe that's their best "look" right now and I think both of them have become such beautiful people that I want them to be seen. I also think they have what it takes to really make a huge impact with the Korean crowd and other parts of Asia to reach those markets. Elle Korea is already following them on social media.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
That is the big ask. I really do think just increasing the perception of speed does a lot for those criticisms. With more speed they can add more transitions and highlight moves which makes it look like they have more abandon. I know everyone is saying they need to keep their standing and look behind them to make sure a team like H/D don't overtake them. I honestly don't think they are as slow or careful as so many make them out to be compare to the other teams behind them currently but those optics have taken over and have become the narrative. That said, what I saw for all of last season until Worlds was that they were capable of being spoilers for the top 2 but they held themselves back a bit. I'm still holding on to the fact that the Shibs did receive the biggest ovation in the FD and medal ceremony at 2017 4CC. I know some will debate me on that but that's something I know happened even with Evolution which so many have dismissed as not being emotionally as strong as Fix You.
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I dont think my nontechnical eye can tell the difference between speed and the perception of speed, esp since I rarely see skating live (and then mostly shows), but it sounds like they have been training to the max and there may actually be more power and speed now.

Re Evolution it may be that that program took a quiet hold of the audience in a way that's hard to see on video, where the smaller changes in the emotional temperature are harder to register. Mesmerizingly beautiful is a perfectly fine way to a gold medal, as the Protopopovs could tell us. I didnt find Evolution that mesmerizing but I could see them doing that.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Another part of me that wants Maia and Alex packaged in a way that we can truly see them is that I believe that's their best "look" right now and I think both of them have become such beautiful people that I want them to be seen. I also think they have what it takes to really make a huge impact with the Korean crowd and other parts of Asia to reach those markets. Elle Korea is already following them on social media.
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Absolutely. I am so dying for Maia to bring her young diva Beauty Is Boring look. Alex has many great looks. :) They have definitely burst out of their chrysalis in the past year.
 
Last season they did not do a Senior B either. They confidently debuted with strong performances at the first Grand Prix event, Skate America. 4 of the top 10 teams from 2017 Worlds, or almost half, are not competing in a Senior B event this season.

Their message. Their expressions. Let there be no doubt.

"Ready for October"
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZughzwF8Wn/?hl=en&taken-by=maiashibutani
 
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