Can't Help Falling In Love ... with Hubbell & Donohue (fan thread #2)

:wuzrobbed: :fragile:

I'm crushed for them. I can't even imagine how disappointed they must feel. There is a silver lining, though - the judges are clearly willing to reward them when they have a strong performance. This season they have proven that they are contenders. I hope they take some time to reflect and regroup. They still have a lot to be proud of, and I hope they take that with them into next season.

((((H/D)))
 
I'd love to say that this is just something that's going to sting and take awhile to get over. However, following this sport as long as I have, I feel like I would be burying my head in the sand to pretend like there aren't both definite and possible repercussions from this going into next season. If they'd gotten bronze, they would have been seeded as 1-3 top seed on the gp next season. Now, they're not going to be seeded at all. They would have gone in to the Olympic season as the #1 US team, now they're still #3. We've had the discussion thousands of times over the years: a teams ranking within a country tends to influence how they're viewed internationally. Within the politics of US ice dance, it also makes it more unlikely for them to move up again in 2018. Additionally, this is the second time this season they made mistakes in major international events. If I were in the feds shoes, it would certainly make them look unreliable to me. With talented teams moving up from juniors and a deep US bench to begin with, does it make it even harder to hang on to third? Along that lines, does the spectacular crash and burn also follow them internationally? We've seen it happen before where a team gets a reputation for being error-prone, and so even when they do skate clean, the judges are stingier with the marks than they otherwise would have been.

Maybe it will all be water under the bridge come next fall, but there's a chance this could come back to haunt them in ways more than just not being seeded for the gp. They lost a spot at the gpf, out on a silver medal at nationals, and now this bronze at worlds though. It looks an awful lot like they choke under pressure. I have been a fan of this team since the beginning, but after this year, I am ready to throw my hands up and be done. In the past, I thought it was clearly politics holding them down, but the mistakes this year are on them. They had three really big chances this year and blew them all. Reputation is still a factor in ice dance. This just makes things so much harder on them for next year, and they did it to themselves. If it had been one mistake this season, I could have written it off as an unfortunate fluke. I can't do that with three times.

Also, those twizzles should have been moved to earlier in the program a long time ago. I think almost any coach would have moved them earlier in the season, so I'm not sure why it didn't happen.
 
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Nothing but devastated for Madi and Zach. I was unbelievably ecstatic yesterday with the SD victory, but what happened today is really the toughest pill to swallow. They were flawless until the twizzle error. Hope they take this as motivation to build for the Olympic season. Fingers crossed that they'll be blessed with the perfect programs...
 
Every ice dance team worth their salt has that season that just doesn't go their way and they bounce back from it. Remember the season that Charlie White kept falling? He went on to be a World and Olympic champion. Ice is slippery and stuff happens. Is this a bitter pill to swallow? Absolutely (as Charlie would say). But as a TRUE fan of Madison and Zach, I have faith that they will take this year's experiences and be stronger for it.

But in the meantime, I am sending love and hugs their way.
 
aka_gerbil said:
They would have gone in to the Olympic season as the #1 US team, now they're still #3. We've had the discussion thousands of times over the years: a teams ranking within a country tends to influence how they're viewed internationally. Within the politics of US ice dance, it also makes it more unlikely for them to move up again in 2018.
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Yes, but the #1 and #2 teams suddenly look vulnerable after these last two competitions. I don't think the US rankings for next season are set in stone at all.
 
aka_gerbil said:
I'd love to say that this is just something that's going to sting and take awhile to get over. However, following this sport as long as I have, I feel like I would be burying my head in the sand to pretend like there aren't both definite and possible repercussions from this going into next season. If they'd gotten bronze, they would have been seeded as 1-3 top seed on the gp next season. Now, they're not going to be seeded at all. They would have gone in to the Olympic season as the #1 US team, now they're still #3. We've had the discussion thousands of times over the years: a teams ranking within a country tends to influence how they're viewed internationally. Within the politics of US ice dance, it also makes it more unlikely for them to move up again in 2018. Additionally, this is the second time this season they made mistakes in major international events. If I were in the feds shoes, it would certainly make them look unreliable to me. With talented teams moving up from juniors and a deep US bench to begin with, does it make it even harder to hang on to third? Along that lines, does the spectacular crash and burn also follow them internationally? We've seen it happen before where a team gets a reputation for being error-prone, and so even when they do skate clean, the judges are stingier with the marks than they otherwise would have been.

Maybe it will all be water under the bridge come next fall, but there's a chance this could come back to haunt them in ways more than just not being seeded for the gp.

Also, those twizzles should have been moved to earlier in the program a long time ago. I think almost any coach would have moved them earlier in the season, so I'm not sure why it didn't happen.
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You speak the truth. But this season has shown that as we near the Olympics unpredictability is growing for all teams.

Within US ice dance politics, S/S isn't threatening to out skate V/M or P/C, and both C/B and H/D are experiencing bobbles. But, only H/D is rising their stock with the international judges as a country's 3rd team, with no PCS buffer from World Medalist/National Champion status. USFSA knows this. Their competitive accomplishments outweigh the "potential" of any in-the-wings US team. Their skating skill, even in an imperfect season, took them to their 2nd GPF and placed them 4th at this year's 4CC.

Regardless of the setback in World ranking, they got closer than ever to the podium. Although heartbreaking, in the end this is actually an encouraging scenario.

If one doesn't want the challenges and disappointments that accompany sport, the option to quit is always there. I really doubt H/D have reason to do so anytime soon.
 
That fall during the twizzles was truly heartbreaking. After their unexpected third after the SD, I was pulling for them to take the bronze and I believe they were on their way to doing that. I have loved their FD all season, hopefully they can put this behind them and have an amazing Olympic season!
 
Just watched the British Eurosport vid and they felt even without the fall they likely wouldn't have gotten the bronze. They loved the program but felt it wasn't technically strong enough for a medal. Despite everything, Maddie and Zach did awesome in the short dance, got a world small medal! I remember Charlie White's comments about setbacks...the horrible OD at COR in 2008, missing the podium at Worlds by .04, he said (I'm not quoting) it only served to make him work harder and from then on it was rare they ever made a mistake. I think H/D can take this for what it's worth and find that strength within to never give up. I wish them continued success!
 
I'm so heartbroken by the fall!! The judges/tech panel really were going to give them the bronze if you look at protocols. They got all Level 4s prior to the fall with many +3 and +2 GOEs. The Euro-heavy panel seems to prefer H&D as their top American team. Maybe this bodes well for them next year. The NA panels seem to like Shibs more, but European panel like H&D more.

Also, Elena & Nikita had disastrous 9th place at pre-Olympic worlds, so it's possible to bounce back with bronze in following Olympic year!
 
~tapdancer~ said:
Just watched the British Eurosport vid and they felt even without the fall they likely wouldn't have gotten the bronze. They loved the program but felt it wasn't technically strong enough for a medal.
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I think you misheard. When the fall occurred they said it'd probably cost them the medal. When the program ended, one of the commentators began musing/wishful thinking out loud that maybe the fall wouldn't prevent them from getting it, and then he answered himself by noticing how low their TES were.

I think he was just as caught off guard as all of us, not fully registering what had happened.
 
blancanieves said:
I think you misheard. When the fall occurred they said it'd probably cost them the medal. When the program ended, one of the commentators began musing/wishful thinking out loud that maybe the fall wouldn't prevent them from getting it, and then he answered himself by noticing how low their TES were.

I think he was just as caught off guard as all of us, not fully registering what had happened.
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Yes, but I think it was Nicky & Simon commentating for Brit Euro. and they're kind of ancient "twits", often making mistakes & aren't that knowledgeable, especially Simon, who doesn't have a FS background. That being said, I still really enjoy listening to them!

Was really hoping H/D would medal. I've thought all this year they have been underscored, and at the Worlds finally were given scores in the SD they deserved. Sad about the fall, but what a performance up until it occurred. Can't wait for their programs next season.
 
Ohhhh, Team Montreal came so close to happily celebrating three ice dance teams on the Worlds podium. Instead they end up with increased tensions between their two top teams, and the beautifully improved Hubbell/Donahue are gonna need some kind of uplifting intervention after this roller coaster nightmare.

I could have lived with Madi/Evan dropping, and even Madi/Zach dropping to fourth with the Shibs taking bronze. But Madi/Zach in 9th place overall after all their hard work this season is like some kind of unbelievable Trumptastic-devised torture on the rack. How the hell in Helsinki will Madi/Zach ever recover from this dastardly outcome?

They were deservedly soooo happy in the kiss 'n cry after the SD. Skate Gods can't be this cruel, can they? I could not watch after Zach's fall. This team deserves love and credit for how good they are. Now, are they back to square one? Do the skaters just try to shrug it off and put perspective on it, and try to keep on an even keel? I can't even imagine.

A poster in the new Dance Hall thread said that H/D's coaches should have moved the twizzle sequence to earlier in the program some time ago. Possibly so, but I guess if a mistake is going to happen, it could happen on anything. Kinda like it did for Scott Moir. But it didn't keep V/M from winning (largely due to their reputation and judges' unwillingness to treat them harshly).
 
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Hugs to Madison and Zach. Gutting results after such a high. They will have hard time, they finished 9th when they had an encouraging 6th finish last year. But I think that SD win will help them pull through. I suspect the great atmosphere and their friendship with Gaby and Guillaume will also help a great deal.
 
From Madi and Zach's media comments before Worlds, it sounded like they had ramped up their training to a new level. It also sounded like they were trying to take their coaches' advice to heart - which was not to doubt their abilities and simply give it their best at each moment. As far as the quality of their skating goes, I think we already saw the benefits of this new training approach here at Worlds. As far as the mental aspect goes, maybe that's something that hasn't quite manifested itself in terms of improvements yet.

Yet judging by all the improvements they've made over the last two seasons, and especially in hearing how they're being coached, I think they're still on the right track. From what I've seen and heard, they are very grounded, humble folks who do listen to all the feedback they get - maybe sometimes a bit too much so, such that it becomes information overload when the feedback comes from many different sources and is often conflicting. I simply hope that they can tune out the noise, just stick with their coaches' strategy, think positively and constructively, and approach each new day as a blank canvas full of new opportunities - instead of dwelling self-defeatingly over past missed opportunities or, say, how life is so unfair at times.

Also, let's just do the math. I don't think they got unfairly hosed for this particular mistake in the free dance, because they got appropriate GOEs for their elements before the twizzles, and got very high PCS. Very simply, because they got 0 points for the twizzles, they missed out on what would have been approximately 8 points had they executed them well. Add that to their score and that already would have gotten them back up to 3rd place overall. Then, add back 1 more point due to the mandatory deduction for the fall, and add in 1 more point that could have been lost in PCS due to the mistake. That's 10 points left on the table. Had they gotten those points, it would have been quite a convincing medal finish for them.

Again, I'm pointing this out not so much to frame it as a missed opportunity that they should beat themselves up over, but as an incentive for them to perform and execute cleanly, because if they do so, they'll really reap huge rewards. I think the most encouraging thing this season for them should be the realization that they've worked hard enough to narrow, if not eliminate, whatever perceived gap there was between them and all the other teams ranked 3-10 at Worlds. They really do belong in an honest, thoughtful discussion of the top teams in the world, instead of being mentioned briefly in passing or in a cursory manner, if the relative lack of press coverage about them is any indication. The foundation is there for some real success ahead.
 
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^^ Thanks for your thoughts. Are H/D young enough to stay in for another quad?

cocotaffy said:
I suspect the great atmosphere and their friendship with Gaby and Guillaume will also help a great deal.
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Hopefully so. But will tensions be ratcheted up between P/C and V/M? Do M-F and Patch have a knack that Marina didn't? Will there be cries of P/C 'favoritism' should V/M not coast to a second Olympic gold next season?

How do the Montreal coaches help H/D recover while soothing tensions between P/C and V/M? I hope no one is under the impression that no tensions exist in Montreal. Champions always want to win, just as much as contenders like H/D also want to give it their all to battle for the podium.
 
Madi and Zach both just turned 26 (according to the opening captions on the ISU videos), so your guess is as good as mine as to how much they have in them for another quad.

As for the training environment in Montreal, from what I've heard, it seems very collaborative, with no room for egos or BS. Check out the video threads to see if there are any links to media interviews or ISU press conferences and see for yourself what V/M and P/C's spoken words and body language are towards each other. I suspect there's much less :drama: there than people would hope, if folks are pining for the interpersonal ice dance drama of yore.
 
aftershocks said:
^^ Thanks for your thoughts. Are H/D young enough to stay in for another quad?

Hopefully so. But will tensions be ratcheted up between P/C and V/M? Do M-F and Patch have a knack that Marina didn't? Will there be cries of P/C 'favoritism' should V/M not coast to a second Olympic gold next season?

How do the Montreal coaches help H/D recover while soothing tensions between P/C and V/M? I hope no one is under the impression that no tensions exist in Montreal. Champions always want to win, just as much as contenders like H/D also want to give it their all to battle for the podium.
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Madi and Zach will be 27 in Pyeongchang, so they'd be 31 in Beijing. For comparison, Anna and Luca will be 31 and 32, respectively, in Pyeongchang; Andrew Poje will be 31 as well. I'd say it's certainly possible, since ice dancers tend to have a longer career than singles skaters. I think it'll depend 1) how they do next season and 2) how the upcoming contingent from juniors does. If they continue upwards and surpass C/B and/or the Shibs, they might retire after the Olympics. Ditto if the Parsons, M/C, or H/B are able to make a move. But if they can hold off the younger teams and are still climbing, I could see them sticking around. I'd love to see them as world medalists before they retire, and this weekend proved it's actually possible.
 
They had a rough Nationals in the short and a disaster in the long at Worlds. I don't think anyone can deny how wonderfully their program was going before the stumble. I know this hurts in so many ways but they are under the protective wings of Marie-France and Patrice and there was no doubt they were on an upward trajectory. I think they recover well from this.
 
Cachoo said:
They had a rough Nationals in the short and a disaster in the long at Worlds. I don't think anyone can deny how wonderfully their program was going before the stumble. I know this hurts in so many ways but they are under the protective wings of Marie-France and Patrice and there was no doubt they were on an upward trajectory. I think they recover well from this.
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They actually had a fantastic short at nationals... If I'm not mistaken, they were only .24 behind C/B.

I feel you with the free. It's such a shame that they weren't able to deliver flawlessly, because this FD of theirs this season is truly beautiful. Hope they really bounce back next season. They have a good shot. Winning a small medal at Worlds was a big deal for them and I think the judges will take note of that. Positive vibes...
 
AquaLady said:
They actually had a fantastic short at nationals... If I'm not mistaken, they were only .24 behind C/B.

I feel you with the free. It's such a shame that they weren't able to deliver flawlessly, because this FD of theirs this season is truly beautiful. Hope they really bounce back next season. They have a good shot. Winning a small medal at Worlds was a big deal for them and I think the judges will take note of that. Positive vibes...
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You are right...the short was never the problem. I think the judges appreciate them too so hopefully they will return stronger for the experience.
 
On a positive note - I'm really looking forward to their rhumba next year! They're going to be :smokin: I kind of hope they do another lyrical program for their FD - it's not new, but it suits them and their chemistry really well and would be a nice contrast to a sexy Latin SD. Any thoughts on potential music choices?
 
bwayrose7 said:
On a positive note - I'm really looking forward to their rhumba next year! They're going to be :smokin: I kind of hope they do another lyrical program for their FD - it's not new, but it suits them and their chemistry really well and would be a nice contrast to a sexy Latin SD. Any thoughts on potential music choices?
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Madison and Zach were made to rhumba, I think their SD could be really special. I'm personally tired of angsty, lyrical FDs, but I'm sure they've been planning for their Olympic season programs for a while. They must have pretty firm ideas on what they want to present next.
 
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